Confirmed with Link: Pens sign F Nick Spaling to 2-year, $4.4M contract (2.2AAV)

[mpp9]

Who is dooming and glooming?

(Serious question, I'm wondering who/what you think qualifies as such)

I've seen alot of posts saying we're worse today than last season. And that we're unlikely to deal for a top 6 forward.

Pretty bleak outlook.

 

[IcedCapp]

I've seen alot of posts saying we're worse today than last season. And that we're unlikely to deal for a top 6 forward.

Pretty bleak outlook.

Can't that just be their honest opinion?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

McGinn gets better when you play him with star centers. He was on a 50 pt pace last year after he was moved up with Duchene. As we both have stated, Dupuis is what he is no matter where you play him. As he doesn't have McGinn's shot, size or netfront presence. Plus we get younger.

Marleau is still a star player. He makes players better. Who cares what his caphit is if we make the cap space. And he's better for the duration of his contract than Bennett or Kapanen can hope to be.

JR may bring in a player for a price you don't like. Building a team vs maxing value.

I'd like to have McGinn, but if he's our "answer" to the top 6 question, I'd say that's a pretty poor response. Having guys to do the grunt work for your stars is nice, but that can't be the only thing your top 6 wingers have.

At the other end of the spectrum is Marleau, whose cap hit would likely cause the Pens to cut off their nose to spite their face in order to clear room, and with the added drawback of being a depreciating asset at 35. Simply being better than an ELC player when you're making 6.7 mil per is not adequate justification.

The "team" argument is getting used a lot lately, but when you've given up value and there hasn't been any season to prove otherwise, that's pretty much all you have. If the team doesn't perform better, then what?

 

[Shady Machine]

You said we aren't trading Martin during the season. How else am I supposed to interpret that?

I'd move him if Despres is playing well, Maatta is healthy and Scuds rebounds. Don't see why that's so outrageous.

I said that and then qualified it with my reasoning that contenders rarely if ever do it but fair enough.

It's outrageous because contending teams don't move top pairing dmen during the season. I can't think of a single instance this has happened. Plus, his value for bringing back a winger signed past this year is diminished the longer we wait. A team may be willing to trade a signed winger because a full year of Martin can help them reach the playoffs. Plus the chance of him re-signing goes up if he has a chance to start on the team during training camp.

Sure you will get more in futures if you wait tull the deadline but that's not a reason to trade Martin. Also, I've seen you suggest McGinn and nobody else specifically in this conversation. Would you move Martin for McGinn (not assuming just asking)?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I've seen alot of posts saying we're worse today than last season. And that we're unlikely to deal for a top 6 forward.

Pretty bleak outlook.

That's pretty bang on.

The right top 6 forward could change that though.

 

[Shady Machine]

That's pretty bang on.

The right top 6 forward could change that though.

It's not bang on if you take the whole team. The top 6 is worse but the bottom 6, defense, and goaltending are all better. Add to that what appears to be a more competent coaching staff and I'll take what we have now over last year. That doesn't mean I'm satisfied.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Can't that just be their honest opinion?

I remember hearing a lot of the same stuff when people started to vocalize their displeasure with Disco and then Shero. Sometimes the opinion you don't want to hear is still the right one.

 

[mpp9]

Can't that just be their honest opinion?

Can't I say that it's a bleak outlook? And try and convince them that we're in better shape than that?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Can't that just be their honest opinion?

Is it not possible for an honest opinion to be doom and gloom? And is it not possible for calling something doom and gloom to be an honest opinion? I demand to know your honest opinion.

 

[Shady Machine]

Is it not possible for an honest opinion to be doom and gloom? And is it not possible for calling something doom and gloom to be an honest opinion? I demand to know your honest opinion.

This is beautiful

 

[mpp9]

That's pretty bang on.

The right top 6 forward could change that though.

Which is fine. I'm saying we're better set up for the playoffs. But still need another winger for the top 6. Whether it be an elite guy. Guy with warts but skill. Or someone who can create space with his size, works the boards and has a top 6 skill of some sort.

 

[eXile59]

Now if we could get Sutter for something similar. Though I'm not hopeful of that.

 

[IcedCapp]

Can't I say that it's a bleak outlook? And try and convince them that we're in better shape than that?

Is it not possible for an honest opinion to be doom and gloom? And is it not possible for calling something doom and gloom to be an honest opinion? I demand to know your honest opinion.

First Bruno.

Second, saying, wow, you have a dim outlook for the team is different than saying "doom and gloom". The connotation and meaning are different, and both of you know that

 

[stepdad gaary]

That's pretty bang on.

The right top 6 forward could change that though.

im sorry but the pens have improved their 3rd and 4th lines way more than the downgrade from Neal to Hornqvist, improved their back-up goaltending and brought in a new coach. Get real.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Which is fine. I'm saying we're better set up for the playoffs. But still need another winger for the top 6. Whether it be an elite guy. Guy with warts but skill. Or someone who can create space with his size, works the boards and has a top 6 skill of some sort.

I'm quite positive about how things have gone so far, and our prospects for next season. We have some moves yet to make, but we've made a lot of progress in a few months, and haven't made any big blunders, unlike a lot of teams this offseason.

 

[Coach Travis]

Now if we could get Sutter for something similar. Though I'm not hopeful of that.

I'm totally pessimistic at this point. Sutter will get 2 years @ $4M per.

 

[eXile59]

I'm totally pessimistic at this point. Sutter will get 2 years @ $4M per.

I'm already not a fan of the Neal trade so if JR does that it will be very hard for me to root for the guy. Sutter scored 10 less points than Spalling in 10 more games. I know his defense accounts for something but he can't win face offs or hit.

Come on JR don't give in. Send him packing if he wants that kind of money.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I'm already not a fan of the Neal trade so if JR does that it will be very hard for me to root for the guy. Sutter scored 10 less points than Spalling in 10 more games. I know his defense accounts for something but he can't win face offs or hit.

Come on JR don't give in. Send him packing if he wants that kind of money.

To be honest I think the Spaling deal might bring down Sutter's value, especially in a hypothetical arbitration ruling since Spaling is a strong comparable.

 

[radapex]

Are we comparing Goc to Sutter, or to Staal? Because I can compare them all real quick:

Goc: 1.2M
Sutter: 2.7M+???
Staal: 6M

And if you want to look at what 3C's are typically measured on, Goc's career stats on mostly crappy teams are way way better than Sutter's in Corsi, Corsi Rel, faceoffs, and pretty much everything else.

Goc is not a 4th line player. Goc is a solid 3C, and even better for us because of his low cap hit we can use on our top 6.

To neither. Comparing bottom 6 production as a whole. Cup winners tend to have a productive bottom 6; the Pens haven't.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

King can't play all three forward positions well. I don't believe he PKs. And again, he has two seasons under his belt. Spaling has been in the league longer. I would have preferred a one year deal. But I can understand why Spaling refused to go three years.

I really don't think being able to play all three forward positions adds as much value as you're implying. This isn't baseball where having a guy play every infield position is huge.

In any case, King got 1:16 per game on the PK, Spaling got 1:31 per game on the PK. It's not like Spaling was tasked with so much more PK time than King to give him a huge edge in that department.

King had 114 hits to Spaling's 42, so King brings a much more physical game than Spaling, and is a lot tougher to handle at 6'4 and 230 lbs, compared to Spaling at around 6'1 and 200 lbs.

There's really nothing to suggest Spaling deserves to get paid more than King, nor that he has more leverage than King to insist on no UFA years being included in the deal.

 

[Gurglesons]

I really don't think being able to play all three forward positions adds as much value as you're implying. This isn't baseball where having a guy play every infield position is huge.

In any case, King got 1:16 per game on the PK, Spaling got 1:31 per game on the PK. It's not like Spaling was tasked with so much more PK time than King to give him a huge edge in that department.

King had 114 hits to Spaling's 42, so King brings a much more physical game than Spaling, and is a lot tougher to handle at 6'4 and 230 lbs, compared to Spaling at around 6'1 and 200 lbs.

There's really nothing to suggest Spaling deserves to get paid more than King, nor that he has more leverage than King to insist on no UFA years being included in the deal.

Not to mention the fact that King has cemented himself as a go to winger on a team with players like Williams, Gaborik, Brown, Lewis, Nolan, Pearson, etc.

If Spaling is getting 2.2, King could've at least got 2.5. Not to mention the fact he signed the contract for four years. Two more than Spaling.

 

[Freeptop]

All of those things are possible scenarios, I'm just used to a GM that doesn't deal veterans. JR traded Neal, but I'm not sure how likely he is to trade a vet like Martin in the middle of the season (assuming you meant him if Ehrhoff re-signs).

Rutherford wasn't afraid to trade players in the middle of the season when he was with Carolina:
Tomas Kaberle for Jaroslav Spacek, 12/2011
Anton Babchuk and Tom Kostopoulos for Brett Sutter and Ian White, 11/2010
Craig Adams for a conditional draft pick, 01/2008
Pavel Brendl for Krys Kolanos (whom he traded later in the season as part of the package for Recchi), 12/2005

Those are just a few examples of veteran players getting moved mid-season. I basically chose to only look at trades from October to January, as before that timeframe is not during the season, and after that timeframe is basically the trade deadline period.

That said, I don't think it's likely he'll trade Paul Martin mid-season. On the other hand, as the Kaberle trade demonstrates, he's willing, and sometimes able, to find a way to trade underperforming players away. So if Scuderi doesn't rebound from last season, I wouldn't be surprised if Rutherford tries to find a way to move him out mid-season.

Please note: I'm not trying to make any claim as to the qualilty of the above trades. I was just illustrating that Rutherford is willing to move veteran players mid-season.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It's not bang on if you take the whole team. The top 6 is worse but the bottom 6, defense, and goaltending are all better. Add to that what appears to be a more competent coaching staff and I'll take what we have now over last year. That doesn't mean I'm satisfied.

im sorry but the pens have improved their 3rd and 4th lines way more than the downgrade from Neal to Hornqvist, improved their back-up goaltending and brought in a new coach. Get real.

I put a lot of value on the top 6, and I think the bottom 6 and defense are helped mostly by virtue of additions by subtraction that were pretty much done deals regardless. Griess will probably be better than Zatkoff, but he was really our 3rd string forced into back-up duty. Season-ending injuries to Dupuis and Vokoun make last year's team seem a lot more suspect than it was.

The coaching staff's a wildcard that could pay dividends but I was speaking specifically about the roster.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Which is fine. I'm saying we're better set up for the playoffs. But still need another winger for the top 6. Whether it be an elite guy. Guy with warts but skill. Or someone who can create space with his size, works the boards and has a top 6 skill of some sort.

I'd say the former is very much dependent on the latter.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rutherford wasn't afraid to trade players in the middle of the season when he was with Carolina:
Tomas Kaberle for Jaroslav Spacek, 12/2011
Anton Babchuk and Tom Kostopoulos for Brett Sutter and Ian White, 11/2010
Craig Adams for a conditional draft pick, 01/2008
Pavel Brendl for Krys Kolanos (whom he traded later in the season as part of the package for Recchi), 12/2005

All of these trades suck. Lateral at best. He basically traded veterans for other veterans outside of the Kostopoulos deal, but he got someone that has been a fringe NHL / AHLer just like Kostopoulos.

So, I'd rather he not trade Martin for something like that, because Martin has proven he can balance out a player like Letang and be a D-stud.