Confirmed with Link: Pens sign F Nick Spaling to 2-year, $4.4M contract (2.2AAV)

[Shady Machine]

Sutter badly outperformed Goc in the postseason. I'm fine dealing Sutter, but if he'll commit longterm, Id rather have him. I think he has that extra gear offensively for the playoffs. Whereas Goc can't be relied upon to help anchor your secondary scoring.

And Spaling is a much better player than Megna at this point. Megna hasn't shown he's an NHL regular yet. Intriguing upside, but that's all for now.

Sutter is a better player than Goc but how hard is it to outperform someone when their linemates are Gladams? We saw during the regular season what that did to Sutter's production.

We aren't getting a top 6 winger without moving a good NHL player. I have my doubts they will move Martin, Scuderi and Dupuis have little trade value, so that leaves Sutter.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sutter badly outperformed Goc in the postseason. I'm fine dealing Sutter, but if he'll commit longterm, Id rather have him. I think he has that extra gear offensively for the playoffs. Whereas Goc can't be relied upon to help anchor your secondary scoring.

And Spaling is a much better player than Megna at this point. Megna hasn't shown he's an NHL regular yet. Intriguing upside, but that's all for now.

At what price, though? Keep in mind one of the reasons people were in favor of moving Staal was because it made little sense tying up $6 million per year in, essentially, your third line center. If Sutter signs for $4+ million per year, that's going to limit the amount available to ever properly upgrade the top six.

Sutter > Goc at 3C. But Goc at 3C + cap space to upgrade top six > Sutter at 3C.

 

[Gurglesons]

We aren't getting a top 6 winger without moving a good NHL player. I have my doubts they will move Martin, Scuderi and Dupuis have little trade value, so that leaves Sutter.

And we aren't going to get it for Sutter alone so we have to give up a prospect on the level of a Despres or Dumo that can transition in a bottom six or fringe top four position next year.

 

[mpp9]

Why are you using Eller as an example? He's not comparable to Spaling. Eller's more comparable to whatever Sutter ends up signing at. Why not point to the recent signing of King? He's more comparable to Spaling. The Kings buying one year of UFA for King didn't cost them a song and a prayer.

King can't play all three forward positions well. I don't believe he PKs. And again, he has two seasons under his belt. Spaling has been in the league longer. I would have preferred a one year deal. But I can understand why Spaling refused to go three years.

 

[mpp9]

Sutter is a better player than Goc but how hard is it to outperform someone when their linemates are Gladams? We saw during the regular season what that did to Sutter's production.

We aren't getting a top 6 winger without moving a good NHL player. I have my doubts they will move Martin, Scuderi and Dupuis have little trade value, so that leaves Sutter.

I want to deal from defense. Sutter can be used as a chip if he won't sign longterm.

Goc played with Stemp and Beau. Still didn't produce. I'm fine with Goc and Spaling as our centers, but only b/c it's a setup with no clear 3rd or 4th line that would get by on depth.

 

[billybudd]

Uh, Richards had more time than both Lewis and Clifford in every game in the final.

What part of "playing on the fourth line and spot-filling on the second" wasn't clear, exactly?

 

[Shady Machine]

I want to deal from defense. Sutter can be used as a chip if he won't sign longterm.

Goc played with Stemp and Beau. Still didn't produce. I'm fine with Goc and Spaling as our centers, but only b/c it's a setup with no clear 3rd or 4th line that would get by on depth.

Okay so who on defense? Scuds has no trade value. Martin isn't going to be moved during the season. You trade him in the offseason if a trade was going to go down. Contenders don't move a top pairing dman very often mid season (if ever). Even if we did move Martin during the season, it's likely going to be for a guy in a similar contract situation.

 

[Gurglesons]

What part of "playing on the fourth line and spot-filling on the second" wasn't clear, exactly?

They demoted Pearson, moved Carter to wing and played Richards in the center of Toffoli and Carter for most of the finals. I was watching every game with tons of Kings fans since I live in LA. Most of the fan base loves Richards and understand what he brings to their team regardless of contract. Also, if Mike Richards playing on your third line is the worst move you've made as a GM, you're cool in my book.

 

[billybudd]

Sutter's not better than Goc. At least, not as checking line centers so far in their careers. We mostly only saw Goc with a foot that, frankly, I thought would have to have been amputated after watching the play.

What Sutter IS, is more durable. But this is in part, due to deficiencies in his game (unwillingness to battle in dirty areas, aversion to traffic).

Not saying Goc will retire having a better career, but it's wrong to say a team with Sutter at 3 C has a better 3 C than one with Goc in 2014.

 

[radapex]

I want to deal from defense. Sutter can be used as a chip if he won't sign longterm.

Goc played with Stemp and Beau. Still didn't produce. I'm fine with Goc and Spaling as our centers, but only b/c it's a setup with no clear 3rd or 4th line that would get by on depth.

Goc is an excellent depth piece, but you're in trouble if he's a regular on your third line. Spaling to Goc would be a downgrade in every way except faceoffs and hitting. Great guy to have as a 4th line checking faceoff specialist who can perform spot duty on the 3rd line when needed.

 

[mpp9]

Okay so who on defense? Scuds has no trade value. Martin isn't going to be moved during the season. You trade him in the offseason if a trade was going to go down. Contenders don't move a top pairing dman very often mid season (if ever). Even if we did move Martin during the season, it's likely going to be for a guy in a similar contract situation.

If Despres is a top 4 D when Maatta returns, I'd say we have several options on defense. I'm fine moving Bort as a secondary piece in a deal. And no, we absolutely can deal Martin during the season. It depends a lot on how Despres plays, Maatta's health and Scuds rebounding.

Not to mention moving one of our **** ton of D prospects in a futures packages and dumping a player separately. JR's willing to overpay, we know that.

I just don't see the doom and gloom. But to each his own.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I want to deal from defense. Sutter can be used as a chip if he won't sign longterm.

Goc played with Stemp and Beau. Still didn't produce. I'm fine with Goc and Spaling as our centers, but only b/c it's a setup with no clear 3rd or 4th line that would get by on depth.

Goc played tougher competition than Sutter in the regular season last year, had way tougher Dzone starts (almost 40% vs. Sutter's 33.6%), and a lot higher faceoff win %. And had much better possession stats than Sutter, even in the post season. So Goc is a prototypical solid 3C, and will chip in 10 goals.

There's no way you can see Goc as anything but a positive as our 3C at 1.2m. And I think Sutter should be gone, or signed to a 1 year QO deal and traded mid season.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Goc is an excellent depth piece, but you're in trouble if he's a regular on your third line. Spaling to Goc would be a downgrade in every way except faceoffs and hitting. Great guy to have as a 4th line checking faceoff specialist who can perform spot duty on the 3rd line when needed.

You're on crack, sir.

 

[mpp9]

Sutter's not better than Goc. At least, not as checking line centers so far in their careers. We mostly only saw Goc with a foot that, frankly, I thought would have to have been amputated after watching the play.

What Sutter IS, is more durable. But this is in part, due to deficiencies in his game (unwillingness to battle in dirty areas, aversion to traffic).

Not saying Goc will retire having a better career, but it's wrong to say a team with Sutter at 3 C has a better 3 C than one with Goc in 2014.

Sutter's best is better than Goc's. He showed it in the playoffs when he was our 2nd best forward. I think that's closer to the player you get when you give some talent to work with.

But I'm fine dealing him if it brings us a top 6 winger.

 

[IcedCapp]

Sutter's best is better than Goc's. He showed it in the playoffs when he was our 2nd best forward. I think that's closer to the player you get when you give some talent to work with.

But I'm fine dealing him if it brings us a top 6 winger.

I think there's a lot of danger in assuming Sutter is the guy he was for 13 games rather than the guy he's been in every other game in his entire NHL career.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Shero usually sold futures for expiring contracts at the deadline.

I'm saying I think JR will trade roster players to address our top 6 well before then.

I'm not sure what the key distinction is there, in terms of icing a better team.

We dont necessarily have to trade up in value. Just bringing in the right players to complement our talent. Dupuis vs McGinn for example. Or trading more for than you'd feel comfortable with for an older star like Marleau. Those two would be my targets.

But I think Roy may repeat his Downie/Talbot and PAP/Briere trades. A healthy productive Dupuis falls in line with what he's done.

And I think SJ is under pressure to make changes. Marleau may be the most cost effective impact player out there. You don't like his age. But again, who cares as long as he helps the team the next few years while Bennett/Kapanen develop.

We're not going to see eye-to-eye on what's going to benefit the team if your key trade targets are a 26 year old with a career-high 38 points and a 35 year old making nearly 7 mil per for the next 3 years.

Marleau represents an upgrade, but with prohibitive risk. McGinn is - at best - another complementary guy.

 

[radapex]

You're on crack, sir.

If you want to fill your bottom 6 with a bunch of 20 point guys, that's your prerogative... but disappointing playoff exits will continue to be a regular occurrence that way.

For reference, here is the Pens' Cup-winning bottom 6 from 2008-09:

Cooke (31 points) - Staal (49 points) - Kennedy (35 points)
Dupuis (28 points) - Talbot (22 points) - Adams (7 points)


And here's what they had last season...

Goc (25 points) - Sutter (26 points) - Gibbons (17 points)
Glass (13 points) - Vitale (14 points) - Adams (11 points)

 

[mpp9]

I think there's a lot of danger in assuming Sutter is the guy he was for 13 games rather than the guy he's been in every other game in his entire NHL career.

He's been good in one of two career playoff runs. I see him as a solid offensive contributor for us in the playoffs. And he's had some clutch goals even in the regular season.

At the very least, I'm intrigued enough that Id be fine signing him. Unless a big top 6 upgrade like Perron could be had with him a central piece.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

If you want to fill your bottom 6 with a bunch of 20 point guys, that's your prerogative... but disappointing playoff exits will continue to be a regular occurrence that way.

For reference, here is the Pens' Cup-winning bottom 6 from 2008-09:

Cooke (31 points) - Staal (49 points) - Kennedy (35 points)
Dupuis (28 points) - Talbot (22 points) - Adams (7 points)


And here's what they had last season...

Goc (25 points) - Sutter (26 points) - Gibbons (17 points)
Glass (13 points) - Vitale (14 points) - Adams (11 points)

Are we comparing Goc to Sutter, or to Staal? Because I can compare them all real quick:

Goc: 1.2M
Sutter: 2.7M+???
Staal: 6M

And if you want to look at what 3C's are typically measured on, Goc's career stats on mostly crappy teams are way way better than Sutter's in Corsi, Corsi Rel, faceoffs, and pretty much everything else.

Goc is not a 4th line player. Goc is a solid 3C, and even better for us because of his low cap hit we can use on our top 6.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If you want to fill your bottom 6 with a bunch of 20 point guys, that's your prerogative... but disappointing playoff exits will continue to be a regular occurrence that way.

For reference, here is the Pens' Cup-winning bottom 6 from 2008-09:

Cooke (31 points) - Staal (49 points) - Kennedy (35 points)
Dupuis (28 points) - Talbot (22 points) - Adams (7 points)


And here's what they had last season...

Goc (25 points) - Sutter (26 points) - Gibbons (17 points)
Glass (13 points) - Vitale (14 points) - Adams (11 points)

This isn't representative.

First of all, the Pens saw Dupuis go down due to a season-ending injury, which affected the depth.

Second, our playoff roster had Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Neal, Jokinen, Bennett, and Stempniak too. One of those guys belongs in your bottom 6.

Finally, we didn't ice Adams and Glass because they were our best options, we iced them because DB loved them. We could've had the likes of Megna sub in, leaving you with a bottom 6 of:

Goc - Sutter - Bennett
Megna - Vitale - Gibbons

 

[Shady Machine]

If Despres is a top 4 D when Maatta returns, I'd say we have several options on defense. I'm fine moving Bort as a secondary piece in a deal. And no, we absolutely can deal Martin during the season. It depends a lot on how Despres plays, Maatta's health and Scuds rebounding.

Not to mention moving one of our **** ton of D prospects in a futures packages and dumping a player separately. JR's willing to overpay, we know that.

I just don't see the doom and gloom. But to each his own.

Bort doesn't have much value. And as a secondary piece it would have to be with Sutter or a more established dman. So that option is out.

We technically can trade Martin mid season, I never said otherwise, I said it rarely if ever happens. Plus, it likely won't give us a long term solution.

I don't see doom and gloom either, I just don't see a likely scenario mid season other than deadline rentals.

 

[mpp9]

I'm not sure what the key distinction is there, in terms of icing a better team.



We're not going to see eye-to-eye on what's going to benefit the team if your key trade targets are a 26 year old with a career-high 38 points and a 35 year old making nearly 7 mil per for the next 3 years.

Marleau represents an upgrade, but with prohibitive risk. McGinn is - at best - another complementary guy.

I'm not someone who cares when they have their full roster. But I'm listing two scenarios where I think JR may pull the trigger in a hockey trade vs the typical rental route.

McGinn gets better when you play him with star centers. He was on a 50 pt pace last year after he was moved up with Duchene. As we both have stated, Dupuis is what he is no matter where you play him. As he doesn't have McGinn's shot, size or netfront presence. Plus we get younger.

Marleau is still a star player. He makes players better. Who cares what his caphit is if we make the cap space. And he's better for the duration of his contract than Bennett or Kapanen can hope to be.

JR may bring in a player for a price you don't like. Building a team vs maxing value.

 

[IcedCapp]

I just don't see the doom and gloom. But to each his own.

Who is dooming and glooming?

(Serious question, I'm wondering who/what you think qualifies as such)

 

[billybudd]

Sutter's best is better than Goc's. He showed it in the playoffs when he was our 2nd best forward. I think that's closer to the player you get when you give some talent to work with.

But I'm fine dealing him if it brings us a top 6 winger.

Sutter's best might be better than Goc's but Goc never put together a stretch of garbage hockey like Sutter did for the 80 or so games prior to April 2014.

 

[mpp9]

Bort doesn't have much value. And as a secondary piece it would have to be with Sutter or a more established dman. So that option is out.

We technically can trade Martin mid season, I never said otherwise, I said it rarely if ever happens. Plus, it likely won't give us a long term solution.

I don't see doom and gloom either, I just don't see a likely scenario mid season other than deadline rentals.

You said we aren't trading Martin during the season. How else am I supposed to interpret that?

I'd move him if Despres is playing well, Maatta is healthy and Scuds rebounds. Don't see why that's so outrageous.