Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Empoleon8771]

Dude the opposing players are not a vehicle to project the board's feelings.

Not even that, Nylander wasn't even mistreated by Sullivan. If anything, you can even argue that Nylander was given far too much rope by Sullivan.

People remember that he was penciled into Malkin's RW to start the year and he got an extensive look there in pre-season and training camp, right? I remember Sprong had some shit with the Penguins after they traded him, which is at least valid because I think they jerked him around a bit. But Nylander? He was given a chance and did nothing with it

 

[ChaosAgent]

"I hope Evgeni Malkin has 11 points tomorrow and then indicates the Mike Sullivan was holding him back and he has evidence from Kasperi Kapanen who phones in on the jumbotron and then Bryan Rust is shown literally kissing Mike Sullivan's ass behind the bench and then Teddy Blueger plays 3 straight games and scores 1 point and we finally see the light lol"

 

[Gurglesons]

Just pointing this out:

• Tippett: 13 goals and 32 points in 87 games between 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 with the Panthers
• Hoglander: 22 goals and 36 points in 86 games between 2022-2023 and 2023-2024 with the Canucks

Is this a "Tippett broke out with the Flyers, so we should expect Hoglander to do the same" comment? No, I meant this as in "they shouldn't value Hoglander super high because what he's doing isn't even that impressive".

I just hope they stay away from the Canucks with a Guentzel trade. The more I see, the more I think they'd be buying insanely high on Hoglander, who I don't view as better than a 2nd line potential guy.

Hoglander rocks and is a top nine forward next year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t see much in the Vegas players being mentioned. Dorofeyev is nothing to write home about. He’s a Bemstrom/Puustinen/DOC caliber guy. Same with Brisson. I’d like Edstrom but haven’t seen him mentioned.

I want good prospects not middling crap, which we already have.

I think comparing Dorofeyev to Puustinen is a very fair comparison, but I really disagree with Brisson. Between his draft position and his performance at Michigan, he looks like a clearly better prospect than that. Brisson would firmly be a top-3 prospect for this team, where I think it would be debatable between him and Pickering for the #2 spot.

Brisson is a really intriguing guy in my eyes as a long-term Guentzel replacement. He's another cerebral former center who knows how to find weak spots, plus he has a really nice shot and a great 1-timer. I think you could slide Brisson into Guentzel's old spot and have him be a consistent 25 goal scorer going forward.

Hoglander rocks and is a top nine forward next year.

Yes, he's a top-9 forward. I don't know if he's much beyond that.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think comparing Dorofeyev to Puustinen is a very fair comparison, but I really disagree with Brisson. Between his draft position and his performance at Michigan, he looks like a clearly better prospect than that. Brisson would firmly be a top-3 prospect for this team, where I think it would be debatable between him and Pickering for the #2 spot.

Brisson is a really intriguing guy in my eyes as a long-term Guentzel replacement. He's another cerebral former center who knows how to find weak spots, plus he has a really nice shot and a great 1-timer. I think you could slide Brisson into Guentzel's old spot and have him be a consistent 25 goal scorer going forward.

Yes, he's a top-9 forward. I don't know if he's much beyond that.

Hoglander over Brisson all day.

Brisson is a lazy player. Hoglander got a motor.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hoglander over Brisson all day.

Brisson is a lazy player. Hoglander got a motor.

I think the two fill different roles. Hoglander's upside is Zucker while Brisson's upside is a 2nd line version of Guentzel. Ideally they have both, but just for different roles.

I think their upsides are very similar, but if they're trading Guentzel, getting a guy like Brisson back looks really appealing.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If Brisson is gonna be neck and neck with Pickering, then he's not a very good prospect. It doesn't take much at all to be a top-3 prospect in this organization, which is pretty universally viewed as having a bottom-5 prospect pool in the league.

But he used to hang out with Sid when he was little or something, so now I kinda expect it. Dumb, though. Vegas and Edmonton are the worst outcomes because I don't think either has the return Dubas should be gunning for. Hopefully a dark horse team comes outta nowhere and offers up a haul.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Brisson is gonna be neck and neck with Pickering, then he's not a very good prospect. It doesn't take much at all to be a top-3 prospect in this organization, which is pretty universally viewed as having a bottom-5 prospect pool in the league.

But he used to hang out with Sid when he was little or something, so now I kinda expect it. Dumb, though. Vegas and Edmonton are the worst outcomes because I don't think either has the return Dubas should be gunning for. Hopefully a dark horse team comes outta nowhere and offers up a haul.

Uh, Pickering is a very good prospect. Not like A tier, top-20 prospect, but he's a very good prospect.

He's a 1st rounder that has progressed well as a 1st rounder. He hasn't exploded or regressed as a prospect, he's just a good 1st round caliber prospect. That goes for both Pickering and Brisson.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the two fill different roles. Hoglander's upside is Zucker while Brisson's upside is a 2nd line version of Guentzel. Ideally they have both, but just for different roles.

I think their upsides are very similar, but if they're trading Guentzel, getting a guy like Brisson back looks really appealing.

I'll take the Swede who has the motor and 20 goals in the NHL over a shitty version of Guentzel.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Nylander could score 9 goals in a game and I still wouldn't want him back

I'm honestly a bit surprised how few trades have happened so far for the deadline. I think the only "deadline" moves so far have been Lindholm, Monahan, Tanev and Lybushkin and it's like 3.5 days away from the deadline. Last year at this time, you had all of Horvat, Tarasenko, ROR, Orlov, Niederreiter, Barbashev, Meier and Jeannot traded.

I'm surprised at how few solid rumors there are -- outside of Markstrom constantly being connected to New Jersey, the rest of the rumors are just idle speculation.

Usually by now you at least have some more substantial rumors.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah Pickering seems like an underwhelming prospect. Not great by Ronathan Hextall.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'll take the Swede who has the motor and 20 goals in the NHL over a shitty version of Guentzel.

I'd rather have Hoglander with Malkin and Brisson with Crosby

Like I said, I'm not shitting on Hoglander. I just like Brisson too.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah Pickering seems like an underwhelming prospect. Not great by Ronathan Hextall.

He's what people continuously have wanted.

A prospect with high potential, sort of a boom or bust.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Uh, Pickering is a very good prospect. Not like A tier, top-20 prospect, but he's a very good prospect.

He's a 1st rounder that has progressed well as a 1st rounder. He hasn't exploded or regressed as a prospect, he's just a good 1st round caliber prospect. That goes for both Pickering and Brisson.

Even as probably the president of the "this era's dead, go next" club around here, who is heavily invested in prospects and all that, I'd trade Pickering tomorrow without hesitation. They picked a looooong term project with big bust potential, and I don't think he's ever gonna amount to anything. /shrug

Hope he proves me wrong, but we'll see.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd rather have Hoglander with Malkin and Brisson with Crosby

Like I said, I'm not shitting on Hoglander. I just like Brisson too.

Hoglander is a perfect line mate for Sid.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Even as probably the president of the "this era's dead, go next" club around here, who is heavily invested in prospects and all that, I'd trade Pickering tomorrow without hesitation. They picked a looooong term project with big bust potential, and I don't think he's ever gonna amount to anything. /shrug

Hope he proves me wrong, but we'll see.

I mean, what are you expecting out of a 20th overall pick?

Pickering has progressed as expected as a 1st rounder taken around 20th overall. He's not lighting the league on fire like some other players drafted around him have, but he's not an absolute bust like other players drafted around him are. He's just progressing solidly as a prospect. There's nothing wrong with that. He's not skyrocketing as a top prospect, nor is he falling off and looking like a bust. Just solid development for where he was drafted.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know this board is jaded, but I really think people need to take into account context when it comes to evaluation of guys like Pickering. You have had guys who both boom as prospects and regress as prospects that were all drafted around him. Just a few examples:

-Danila Yurov was taken 24th overall by Minnesota, he has 49 points in 62 games in the KHL this year as a 20 year old. He has boomed as a prospect
-Nathan Gaucher was taken 22nd overall by Anaheim, he has 16 points in 50 games in the AHL this year as a 20 year old. He has regressed as a prospect
-Rutger McGroarty was taken 14th overall by Winnipeg, he has 45 points in 29 games in the NCAA this year. He has boomed as a prospect
-Lian Bichsel was taken 18th overall by Dallas, he has 3 points in 25 games in the SHL this year. He has regressed as a prospect.

Pickering isn't really going either of these ways, he's just progressing solidly. I don't think Pickering has progressed any worse than Maatta did when he was in juniors, who was taken basically in the same draft position a decade before. That's not to say that Pickering has the massive jump from year 2 to year 3 that Maatta had, but I don't really see anything with Pickering that raises alarms with how he's progressing.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I thought Canucks fans were like ultra stoked about Hoglander the past couple years. I think the dude's fine. Not the centerpiece in any Jake trade, but I don't think he's as bad as people around here make him out to be. Dude's a year younger than Poulin.

I mean, what are you expecting out of a 20th overall pick?

Pickering has progressed as expected as a 1st rounder taken around 20th overall. He's not lighting the league on fire like some other players drafted around him have, but he's not an absolute bust like other players drafted around him are. He's just progressing solidly as a prospect. There's nothing wrong with that, nor does it make him a terrible prospect.

Expect, or hope? I dunno. I expect nothing from a ~20th overall pick, which is what I think Pickering turns out to be. I'm not like, angry that they picked him or anything. I just pretty much operated under the assumption, right off the hop, that he's gonna take years to fill out and adjust to his frame and is gonna be a very long term project, likely to bust.

I'm not even all that enamored with Yager in the big picture, I think his absolute ceiling is McCann-esque, but I think he's leaps and bounds above Pickering as a prospect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I thought Canucks fans were like ultra stoked about Hoglander the past couple years. I think the dude's fine. Not the centerpiece in any Jake trade, but I don't think he's as bad as people around here make him out to be. Dude's a year younger than Poulin.

Expect, or hope? I dunno. I expect nothing from a ~20th overall pick, which is what I think Pickering turns out to be. I'm not like, angry that they picked him or anything. I just pretty much operated under the assumption, right off the hop, that he's gonna take years to fill out and adjust to his frame and is gonna be a very long term project, likely to bust.

I'm not even all that enamored with Yager in the big picture, I think his absolute ceiling is McCann-esque, but I think he's leaps and bounds above Pickering as a prospect.

I don't think anyone things Hoglander is bad, just not good enough to be the centerpiece in any Guentzel trade. His upside is an undersized 2nd line motor type of guy similar to Zucker. That's not a bad piece, you just want better than that for Guentzel. I actually think Brisson's upside is similar to that, I just like the stylistic replacement for Guentzel with Brisson more. I think Brisson's upside is a Guentzel-lite 2nd liner while Hoglander's upside is a Zucker 2nd liner.

On Pickering, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on him. He's not lighting the world on fire, but I think he's progressing solidly as a 1st rounder. A better way to put it: I don't think he has done anything to suggest he's either a top prospect or a bust. He's just progressing steadily.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think anyone things Hoglander is bad, just not good enough to be the centerpiece in any Guentzel trade. His upside is an undersized 2nd line motor type of guy similar to Zucker. That's not a bad piece, you just want better than that for Guentzel. I actually think Brisson's upside is similar to that, I just like the stylistic replacement for Guentzel with Brisson more. I think Brisson's upside is a Guentzel-lite 2nd liner while Hoglander's upside is a Zucker 2nd liner.

On Pickering, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on him. He's not lighting the world on fire, but I think he's progressing solidly as a 1st rounder. A better way to put it: I don't think he has done anything to suggest he's either a top prospect or a bust. He's just progressing steadily.

Oh, lots of people around here think Hoglander's bad. When he gets brought up as one of the pieces coming back in a Jake deal, several people act like he's akin to DOC or some shit.

I dunno, we'll see what happens. I hope the team that lands Jake does so with an extension in place and it's not a rental situation, because that'd mean a bigger return. I'll be pretty disappointed if Brisson is the big piece coming back. /shrug

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh, lots of people around here think Hoglander's bad. When he gets brought up as one of the pieces coming back in a Jake deal, several people act like he's akin to DOC or some shit.

I dunno, we'll see what happens. I hope the team that lands Jake does so with an extension in place and it's not a rental situation, because that'd mean a bigger return. I'll be pretty disappointed if Brisson is the big piece coming back. /shrug

I don’t think we will get a better piece than Hoglander in a Guentzel trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t think we will get a better piece than Hoglander in a Guentzel trade.

That just seems depressing to me tbh

A 2nd line upside motor guy as the best piece for Guentzel just seems disappointing

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don’t think we will get a better piece than Hoglander in a Guentzel trade.

Jake at 50% retained with an extension in place? I dunno.

But again, the Dubas-Sullivan-Penguins scouting dept braintrust is always capable of wonderful things, so get excited.

 

[Gurglesons]

That just seems depressing to me tbh

A 2nd line upside motor guy as the best piece for Guentzel just seems disappointing

He is a UFA. When’s the last time a UFA returned back a better piece?

Jake at 50% retained with an extension in place? I dunno.

But again, the Dubas-Sullivan-Penguins scouting dept braintrust is always capable of wonderful things, so get excited.

With an extension. Maybe. But that would likely be a draft deal if you wanted that type of return.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He is a UFA. When’s the last time a UFA returned back a better piece?

Giroux brought back Tippett, who I think had a higher upside than Hoglander. Although Tippett really struggled early and there were questions about him, notably with his skating.