Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[pistolpete11]

What's more realistic; That Mike Sullivan is singlehandedly holding back an otherwise still elite team that would be cruising to wins and on its way to another Cup Finals appearance, or that the issues are numerous and while Sully is a big part, he's not the only factor in this team's steady and dramatic decline?

This is a strawman, but I think you already know that.

 

[eXile3]

I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that people still refuse to admit that Marino is a better player than he was ever given credit for but it still does.

Hextall made changes for the sake of making changes, as many fans wanted him to, and now the team will be lucky to make the playoffs.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that people still refuse to admit that Marino is a better player than he was ever given credit for but it still does.

Hextall made changes for the sake of making changes, as many fans wanted him to, and now the team will be lucky to make the playoffs.

For the next few years!!!

Right now were 8th from the bottom and experts are saying the top 8 in next year's draft will be solid. At least were sure Hextall won't be trading it away unlike GMJR would have by now..

 

[Pens x]

I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that people still refuse to admit that Marino is a better player than he was ever given credit for but it still does.

Hextall made changes for the sake of making changes, as many fans wanted him to, and now the team will be lucky to make the playoffs.

Yeah, the homers were celebrating Hextall for “revamping” the defense all summer.

Revamping usually means improving, no? Hextall didn’t revamp the defense, he simply changed it by making it worse.

For the next few years!!!

Right now were 8th from the bottom and experts are saying the top 8 in next year's draft will be solid. At least were sure Hextall won't be trading it away unlike GMJR would have by now..

He will go out and re-sign Jarry and Dumo. That’ll right the ship. Then, the next GM can trade both to the Coyotes in two years for draft picks.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is a strawman, but I think you already know that.

It's idiotic to me how people can and will point in every direction but the obvious one; that this team just isn't very good anymore, while also being poorly coached.

What's the preferred avenue? Hire Trotz and have him try to do his thing with a buncha forwards who are pretty piss poor defensively and a goalie tandem that's mediocre at best? You're gonna get Johnston-era hockey, not some elite Trotz team that specializes in counter attacking at opportune times while playing a bend but don't break style and relying on strong goaltending.

Team just isn't any good. It happens. I don't think they're *this* bad, but they might be. They sure as shit aren't anything more than a lower seed or wildcard team anymore, staring down 1st round exits ad infinitum. You swap Sully for another coach, which I've been asking for for years, and you still have an over the hill core, flawed supporting cast, and a FO/ownership who has no desire or capability of changing things to the degree they need to be changed.

Big shrug.

-edit- The time for the team to make significant changes was after the Habs play-in. We're years beyond that now, and the roster is more or less completely locked up along with the coach. Too little, too late anymore. Oh well.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that people still refuse to admit that Marino is a better player than he was ever given credit for but it still does.

Hextall made changes for the sake of making changes, as many fans wanted him to, and now the team will be lucky to make the playoffs.

He made changes because our undersized defense cost us three straight playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

For the next few years!!!

Right now were 8th from the bottom and experts are saying the top 8 in next year's draft will be solid. At least were sure Hextall won't be trading it away unlike GMJR would have by now..

The East has been steadily improving. Detroit, Buffalo and New Jersey have been accumulating top picks for a decade now. It’s not surprising that they are finally becoming more competitive.

That being said, the best team in the East right now is the Bruins. The Islanders are also comfortably in a playoff team and they are in the same age group as us. They also had the balls to fire their coaches who were viewed as “some of the best in the league”. Weird huh?

The roster is controlling games. The core top six is producing. And then they fall apart and lose games or their special teams are a disaster. That is on coaching.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's idiotic to me how people can and will point in every direction but the obvious one; that this team just isn't very good anymore, while also being poorly coached.

What's the preferred avenue? Hire Trotz and have him try to do his thing with a buncha forwards who are pretty piss poor defensively and a goalie tandem that's mediocre at best? You're gonna get Johnston-era hockey, not some elite Trotz team that specializes in counter attacking at opportune times while playing a bend but don't break style and relying on strong goaltending.

Team just isn't any good. It happens. I don't think they're *this* bad, but they might be. They sure as shit aren't anything more than a lower seed or wildcard team anymore, staring down 1st round exits ad infinitum. You swap Sully for another coach, which I've been asking for for years, and you still have an over the hill core, flawed supporting cast, and a FO/ownership who has no desire or capability of changing things to the degree they need to be changed.

Big shrug.

-edit- The time for the team to make significant changes was after the Habs play-in. We're years beyond that now, and the roster is more or less completely locked up along with the coach. Too little, too late anymore. Oh well.

The team statistically is good outside of our goals against. And even then it’s 19th at 5v5. That isn’t so bad.

It’s also largely due to one defenseman being on the ice for 75% of goals against and being literally the worst defenseman in the league at surrendering goals.

And our coaching staff is playing him 20+ a night and saying he competes hard.

 

[vikingGoalie]

so goal tending isn't the only thing wrong, but it's a big part of what's going wrong, we get just average goaltending and we win a few of these games we lost.

you look at our goaltending
NHL Goalie Statistics go there and plug in the penguins and then compare to the flyers.

we have much better metrics in expected goals for/against then the flyers, but yet th eflyers are winning, all because of goal tending. Thing is our goalie numbers (esp jarry) are worse then indicated because of how hot Jarry started the season.

interesting how they do game simulations and 1000 iterations in the say we should win the game 70% of the time

MoneyPuck.com

Real Time Hockey Win Probabilities In Game

www.moneypuck.com

 

[Gurglesons]

so goal tending isn't the only thing wrong, but it's a big part of what's going wrong, we get just average goaltending and we win a few of these games we lost.

you look at our goaltending
NHL Goalie Statistics go there and plug in the penguins and then compare to the flyers.

we have much better metrics in expected goals for/against then the flyers, but yet th eflyers are winning, all because of goal tending. Thing is our goalie numbers (esp jarry) are worse then indicated because of how hot Jarry started the season.

interesting how they do game simulations and 1000 iterations in the say we should win the game 70% of the time

MoneyPuck.com

Real Time Hockey Win Probabilities In Game

www.moneypuck.com

Carter Hart is the best goalie in the league right now so little rough to compare our goaltender to theirs

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The team statistically is good outside of our goals against. And even then it’s 19th at 5v5. That isn’t so bad.

It’s also largely due to one defenseman being on the ice for 75% of goals against and being literally the worst defenseman in the league at surrendering goals.

And our coaching staff is playing him 20+ a night and saying he competes hard.

Just wait until the FO re-signs him next summer, baybeeeeee!

 

[Richard]

We have one proven, young, top 4 dman on this roster last year --- and we traded him for an AHLer.


Um, Hexall should have been fired when he put that one on the desk of ownership. Period.

This team lost for three years in a row because of subpar goal keeping. Period. They were better than the Islanders, they were better than the Rangers but for in goal. Fix the goaltending and this team gets to the second or third round each of those years.

Instead, you made changes JUST to make changes and not to make the right changes. This team stinks. Period.

Soft, old, slow, and playing a bad style.

 

[Pens x]

He made changes because our undersized defense cost us three straight playoffs.

But yet he kept the same two goalies who either suck in the playoffs or are always injured.

Shrewd

 

[Pancakes]

We are good 5v5. We're losing because our special teams suck and our goaltending is ass.

 

[eXile3]

He made changes because our undersized defense cost us three straight playoffs.

I guess you don’t have to worry about that if you don’t make the playoffs.

With parity and the new formatting the 1st round is a crapshoot.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's idiotic to me how people can and will point in every direction but the obvious one; that this team just isn't very good anymore, while also being poorly coached.

What's the preferred avenue? Hire Trotz and have him try to do his thing with a buncha forwards who are pretty piss poor defensively and a goalie tandem that's mediocre at best? You're gonna get Johnston-era hockey, not some elite Trotz team that specializes in counter attacking at opportune times while playing a bend but don't break style and relying on strong goaltending.

Team just isn't any good. It happens. I don't think they're *this* bad, but they might be. They sure as shit aren't anything more than a lower seed or wildcard team anymore, staring down 1st round exits ad infinitum. You swap Sully for another coach, which I've been asking for for years, and you still have an over the hill core, flawed supporting cast, and a FO/ownership who has no desire or capability of changing things to the degree they need to be changed.

Big shrug.

-edit- The time for the team to make significant changes was after the Habs play-in. We're years beyond that now, and the roster is more or less completely locked up along with the coach. Too little, too late anymore. Oh well.

What's idiotic is to NOT lay the majority of the blame at the feet of the coach who continues to trot his very clearly washed "top pairing" defenseman out there for 20+min a night to bleed goals against. Or who had top 6 lines that picked up points in their first 5 games, decided to switch them for some unknown reason, and then refuses to go back to them despite losing their next 7 (and counting) games in a row. Or who has an older team with mediocre goaltending and refuses to move away from a high speed, high attacking offensive system.

Sully is taking the teams flaws and instead of trying to mask them, exacerbates them.

No matter how many times you say it, nobody is saying firing Sully makes them Cup favorites, either. But not losing to inferior teams and/or blowing 3-1 series leads when you're up in Game 5, 6, and 7 would be nice.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess you don’t have to worry about that if you don’t make the playoffs.

With parity and the new formatting the 1st round is a crapshoot.

I mean, Petry and Rutta aren’t the issues on D right now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've tossed actual competition for the Cup out a while ago. I would just like to see you know... maybe not shitting the bed in new and creative ways every single season when it matters. I get that it's evidently 100% goaltending's fault but I dunno. That seems really convenient.

 

[eXile3]

I mean, Petry and Rutta aren’t the issues on D right now.

When you compare them to Dumo no but Petry in particular has not been great.

Now he’s 12 games in and it usually takes time for new players to adjust but I would hope for more from him moving forward.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I'm still waiting to hear what's dramatically changed over the course of the past calendar year systems-wise that resulted in losing 7 in a row and counting.

Everybody wants to point in every direction except one, trying desperately to ignore the reality that this roster composition just isn't very good anymore. The goalies are pretty mediocre. The core are 35+ and slowing down noticeably. The supporting cast is built with the mindset that Sid, Geno and Letang can still do the things they did at 27. Sullivan's a spitefully stubborn donkey who regularly starts the team two steps back before the puck even drops. Hextall and ownership just have this thing on cruise control from here on out.

It's not *just* Sullivan, or Reirden. This whole thing is a mess, imo. Top to bottom. Some things are unavoidable like age getting the best of guys who have been around for a long time. Some things *are* avoidable, like playing your 35+ year old guys for 23 minutes a night, and trying to strongarm Jake-Sid-Rust into being when Jake-Sid-Rakell and Zucker-Geno-Rust was working better to start the season.

If you were doom and gloom the first 5 games, then I'm listening. Ultimately the team felt they were closer to being good, than totally rebuilding, hence the core stayed. A gamble? Of course!

Sully is the biggest issue right now IMO.

Yeah, the homers were celebrating Hextall for “revamping” the defense all summer.

Revamping usually means improving, no? Hextall didn’t revamp the defense, he simply changed it by making it worse.

He will go out and re-sign Jarry and Dumo. That’ll right the ship. Then, the next GM can trade both to the Coyotes in two years for draft picks.

Considering cap constraints, and what was available out there, I think Hextall took a decent shot at it. Aside from Dumoulin needing to be on the 2nd/3rd pairing, the D is fine. Petry isn't Letang Jr, but I think 10 games isn't enough to say it's a bust.

Pettersson has actually been good.
Rutta isn't an issue.
Letang is clearly not an issue.
POJ is fine for what he is and gets the chance to grow. That either gives us a trade piece or a real D.

Again, coaching is the biggest issue here! Sully needs to stop catering to feelings and demote people as needed.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

What's more realistic; That Mike Sullivan is singlehandedly holding back an otherwise still elite team that would be cruising to wins and on its way to another Cup Finals appearance, or that the issues are numerous and while Sully is a big part, he's not the only factor in this team's steady and dramatic decline?

The FO and ownership don't care enough or are incompetent when it comes to addressing issues and making changes. Goaltending is awful. The core are over the hill. The supporting cast are not good enough to pick up the slack. The revamped and still exceedingly expensive blueline is still mediocre at best. The team has very little cap wiggle room or valuable assets to use in trades to acquire legitimate help. Sullivan's TOI distribution and line combos are f***awful.

It's lazy and convenient to place the blame entirely on Sullivan. He's part of the issue, without question, and I've been calling for him to be fired since the Habs play-in, but he's far from the only problem. If anything, I expect the FO to be completely nuked if the team's still struggling mightily by Christmas or New Year. I think Sullivan's safe for the rest of this season at least because of his contract(s), and I'd be surprised if he didn't last as long as Sid, maybe longer. At this point, just shrug, who cares? Save yourself a lotta grief.

-edit- Sure, the billionaire group of douchebags who own the team now have enough money to eat Sullivan's contract(s) and not really notice. But billionaires don't just throw away tens of millions of dollars on a whim. Hell, I'm still not entirely convinced that FSG bought the Penguins specifically to own a successful NHL franchise as much as they bought a huge real estate opportunity in downtown Pittsburgh that just so happens to come with an NHL team like the toy in a kid's meal. They didn't chuck a billion down on this team without knowing full well they were three consecutive 1st round exits deep (at the time of purchase, four now for those at home keeping count) with a core in the twilight of their career and an arena struggling to sell out for a while now. That's not the kind of investment you make without a huge factor outside of the hockey side of things.

Just a terrible strawman. Just because there are other issues doesn't mean that Sully shouldn't be fired.

 

[Turin]

We are good 5v5. We're losing because our special teams suck and our goaltending is ass.

Special teams ESPECIALLY

 

[BusinessGoose]

Just a terrible strawman. Just because there are other issues doesn't mean that Sully shouldn't be fired.

Did you read further down where this is acknowledged by big friggen dummy?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Again, I'm not defending Sully and I've been calling for him to be replaced far longer than a lot around here. I just think people are pissing in the wind and trying to desperately ignore the inconvenient reality that it's not just Sullivan, but that there are a whole lot of rotten cogs in the machine anymore.

I don't know who you'd get to replace him. Trotz wants dual coaching/GMing duties, and he'd turn this team into a snorefest--though they're not far off from that now. I think you'd try and get Trotz in hopes that he'd work his magic but you'd end up with a product a lot closer to Johnston-era, boring as shit, prevent defense for 60 minutes a night than anything resembling Trotz's recent success. The forwards are pretty miserable defensively, the blueline looks lost in its own end, and goaltending is in shambles. Not exactly the ingredients you'd want for a Trotz team.

I'm not saying coaching isn't a problem. We're all in agreement that his TOI distrubution on a team with players aging out and guys whose games are ruined by injury is terrible, and his line combinations reek of a donkey too spitefully stubborn for his own good. I'm saying people are being willfully ignorant if they think there's some dramatic shift waiting to happen when Sully is fired. Do I think it'd improve the team? Sure, just starting with an easier workload for the vets and going with a no-brainer like swapping Rakell and Rust does a lot of good, -edit- Though, lessening the workload of the big name guys like Sid, Geno, Letang and guys getting way more TOI than deserved like Dumo and Petry--you're looking at a lot more time for guys like Kap, McGinn, Heinen, Poehling, Carter (if he ever comes back), etc. and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I don't think they're quite *this* bad yet. Do I think it's even worth talking about considering ownership's adoration of the guy, and the fact that he has five years and tens of millions owed due to contract status? Nah. Constantly shaking your fist at the sky about Sullivan is about as insightful or does as much good as being pissed at Jarry and CDS for being injury prone, mediocre goalies, the core for getting old, or Dumo for having his game completely cratered by injuries. It just is what it is.

I'm far more interested in revamping the scouting and development side of the team now and moving forward so we can hopefully avoid as many botched picks and ruined handling of prospects as possible down the line. If it's clear that ownership and the FO are just gonna "everything's fine, nothing to see here" their way through things, for years now and no end in sight, might as well focus on behind the scenes stuff that actually stands to benefit the team in the foreseeable future. /shrug

If you were doom and gloom the first 5 games, then I'm listening. Ultimately the team felt they were closer to being good, than totally rebuilding, hence the core stayed. A gamble? Of course!

Sully is the biggest issue right now IMO.


Considering cap constraints, and what was available out there, I think Hextall took a decent shot at it. Aside from Dumoulin needing to be on the 2nd/3rd pairing, the D is fine. Petry isn't Letang Jr, but I think 10 games isn't enough to say it's a bust.

Pettersson has actually been good.
Rutta isn't an issue.
Letang is clearly not an issue.
POJ is fine for what he is and gets the chance to grow. That either gives us a trade piece or a real D.

Again, coaching is the biggest issue here! Sully needs to stop catering to feelings and demote people as needed.

Just to nitpick here; Letang has been godawful. Probably the worst stretch of hockey we've seen from him in a decade. I'm sure it's due in part to being paired with Dumo for the vast majority of shifts, but he's doing his fair share of dumb shit completely independent of Dumo's influence.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Its a mix of players coaching staff and the Management.

I believe we traded away our 2nd and 3rd best defenseman for a player who Is playing in the AHL and in my opinion a player who I do believe is slightly better however I feel Matheson was coming out of his shell.

I just don't get it.

The special teams are a disaster. Is that all on the players? It seems certain things they do on the PK is out of wack.

Power Play I'd put more blame on the players though.

I do not know what we do but mediocrity should not be the goal with this roster.