GDT: Pens @ Devils - The Grinch! - 7:00 PM - MSG+

[bigd]

Is there a line on all the bridges in NJ to jump off?

 

[Triumph]

This is just filled with stuff that is more fantasy than reality. Jack Hughes did not impress me any more significantly last year than this year.

Then I don't know what you understand about hockey, really, at all. To be a + on last year's team 5v5, to not consider that impressive, to not be impressed with him having to go up against top lines at age 19 and break even against them - I do not know what you are watching. It should be more impressive in the context of this year's team where Kuokkanen and Sharangovich don't look like NHL players.

I have also never said he (or even Ty Smith for that matter) are “not any good at all”…that’s BS. That’s you straw manning criticism of them not living up to the hype of their draft status and this board’s prognostications.

You will never, ever say how good you think Jack Hughes is. You'll never actually give your evaluation of his game. You will just say 'he isn't Connor McDavid' and spew a bunch of negativity. You're 'anti-hype'. So sure, Ty Smith was 'hyped' enough to be on the All-Rookie team last year and was up until 5 games ago, the worst D in the NHL this season (and is no doubt still among the worst). That isn't something that regularly happens.

For the record, when someone says 'or something' after a falsely attributed quote, they don't mean it's something you actually said. Like I said, you'll never say these players aren't good, you'll just say they haven't proven anything. This way you can always be right about them.

It’s also flat out untrue that all those players were injured all at the same time. You’re also grossly exaggerating the severity and making incredibly convenient assumptions. Hamilton was out for like two games but here you are proclaiming that he suffered something serious enough to make him look bad like 10 games later.

The point about Hamilton is that we don't know. We know he was injured enough to miss games, and we know that the team kept saying he was coming back on nights where he wasn't. We have no idea what his injury was, or whether he is still dealing with it.

And then you’re going to tell me you’re not invested in making excuses for this team? Ironically enough Hamilton’s performance is like at the bottom of the list for why this team stinks so I don’t even know why you’re bringing him up other than to bolster the excuse making.

Dougie Hamilton pre-injury: 62% SF/SA, 56% xG, +4 5v5
Dougie Hamilton post-injury: 49% SF/SA, 49% xG, -8 5v5

The earlier numbers were probably not sustainable, but Hamilton has been merely treading water since he returned.

Saying other teams don’t have this many injuries is straight up laughable. The penguins were without two generational talents to start the season and treaded water just fine. And they are still without one of them. They’re able to tread water because they have better players, better coaching, and are a better run org currently.

I agree with almost all of this, but also they had Evan Rodrigues come out of absolute nowhere. You can only talk in generalities. But Evan Rodrigues becoming a 1st line player is one of those fluke things that happens once every few years around the entire league. This guy was a non-tender UFA 2 years ago and now he has 99 shots on goal in 30 games.

And yeah the goaltending has started to suck again but the idea that this team doesn’t suck in other areas is pure denial.

Strawman, obviously this team has a piss-poor power play and the only strength on the team is the penalty kill which is immediately undermined by the awful goaltending.

Your invested in portraying this team as better than they are because your invested in being right about previous prognostications. There’s no other explanation for it.

Sure, but they are also better than this. They will finish with a better record than they've got now.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Is there a line on all the bridges in NJ to jump off?

No, it's moving pretty quick, they have a system.

 

[JrFischer54]

Who wanted all kids on the roster? I don't think that's even possible. And why would anyone not want to bring in a scorer? That's not true to say that, let's not pretend there was no legit concern about Tarasenko's shoulder. Other teams passed on him too.

And you really think it's a good idea to strip Nico of the "C"? You can make the argument we should have waited more to give it to him but now it's done it's done.

If you can take the c from Elias you can certainly take it from nico. A ton of people wanted this roster of youth. I don’t give a damn about injury scare with tarasenko that’s the only way the devils would get a player like him here unless you want to overpay come ufa time to lure someone here.

 

[JrFischer54]

A bit of an exaggeration but it was definitely conventional wisdom on hfboards maybe 3-7 years ago that younger players are better, that players peak at 24 and the only reason they don’t put up the points older players do is because they don’t get the opportunities/usage they do.

Devils have been built as this imaginary but representative hfboards poster would recommend.

3-7 years ago? I was reading that nonsense all summer.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Then I don't know what you understand about hockey, really, at all. To be a + on last year's team 5v5, to not consider that impressive, to not be impressed with him having to go up against top lines at age 19 and break even against them - I do not know what you are watching. It should be more impressive in the context of this year's team where Kuokkanen and Sharangovich don't look like NHL players.

Hughes was a -3 last year, not a plus player so I have no idea where you're pulling that from. And just for context that put him squarely in the middle of the pack amongst his teammates in that category.

We have a second year fourth liner who the coach has been lining up against top line players this season - he's a -3 which puts him in the top 10 players on this team within that category. I guess Mcleod's performance this year is just as "impressive" as Jack's using your logic? But this is another great example of shifting the goal posts - this is not at all the stat category anyone would be citing as evidence of how good Jack is prior to this year.

You will never, ever say how good you think Jack Hughes is. You'll never actually give your evaluation of his game. You will just say 'he isn't Connor McDavid' and spew a bunch of negativity. You're 'anti-hype'. So sure, Ty Smith was 'hyped' enough to be on the All-Rookie team last year and was up until 5 games ago, the worst D in the NHL this season (and is no doubt still among the worst). That isn't something that regularly happens.

I can tell you exactly what Jack is right now. He's a guy who can produce at a 0.5 ppg clip on his natural talent. But his decision making and puck management is atrocious. He attempts to make passes and dekes that he's not talented enough to pull off against NHL caliber opponents. He gets knocked down too easily. Yes he might improve in these areas, but - and this is the point that someone like you just refuses to acknowledge - there's been no visible improvement in these areas from game 1 to now game 130. So when I say someone is not proving they are as good as they hype, it's not just about what they are doing today...it's about the progress they have or haven't made.

In regards to Ty Smith...I haven't really ever claimed that he's not living up to the hype because 1) I don't think he was ever pumped up to the extent that other prospects were, and 2) He had a decent rookie campaign before shitting the bed this year. I haven't said anything about him other than echoing what most other people have said. The only reason he came up in this discussion is because you brought him into it, not me.

For the record, when someone says 'or something' after a falsely attributed quote, they don't mean it's something you actually said. Like I said, you'll never say these players aren't good, you'll just say they haven't proven anything. This way you can always be right about them.

This is a contradictory and non-sensical statement. I'd only be always right about them if they never prove themselves. Is it not your insistence that the players in question will prove themselves, and thus at some point I will be wrong? Unlike certain people, I will happily acknowledge I was wrong if/when that happens, especially since it would likely mean that the team I root for will no longer be a giant pile of suck.

The point about Hamilton is that we don't know. We know he was injured enough to miss games, and we know that the team kept saying he was coming back on nights where he wasn't. We have no idea what his injury was, or whether he is still dealing with it.

Dougie Hamilton pre-injury: 62% SF/SA, 56% xG, +4 5v5
Dougie Hamilton post-injury: 49% SF/SA, 49% xG, -8 5v5

The earlier numbers were probably not sustainable, but Hamilton has been merely treading water since he returned.

We don't know, yet you insinuate it to be the case. Based on what exactly...because his stat line since the injury hasn't been good? OK...he's also been getting paired with an atrocious Ty Smith for a chunk of that time. And the team as a whole has absolutely stunk. But sure...the more convenient narrative (despite not being any more likely) is that it was the injury and by extension everyone else's shitty play must be because of injuries too. What's great about it for someone like you, is that you can find these kinds of things every single season. If the team/player is good for the year, it would be something you wouldn't even look at. But, if the team/player is bad, well, you've always got the ready made rationalization for the bad performance ready to go. This is basically the definition of finding excuses.

I agree with almost all of this, but also they had Evan Rodrigues come out of absolute nowhere. You can only talk in generalities. But Evan Rodrigues becoming a 1st line player is one of those fluke things that happens once every few years around the entire league. This guy was a non-tender UFA 2 years ago and now he has 99 shots on goal in 30 games.

Do you ever stop to think why it is that top teams always seem to have these players that come out of nowhere to help the team through adversity like major injuries, or do you honestly think that these good teams are just perennially lucky? They have a great system in place, great leadership, a strong winning culture and work ethic, great coaching...these are things that will induce otherwise average players to step up when needed, even if just on a temporary basis. "The sum is greater than the individual parts". I know you don't believe in these things because they can't be measured on a pie chart or heat map, but the proof is in the pudding.

And let's not pretend that Evan Rodriguez is the only reason that treaded water during that time. The Penguins have been doing this for years. Have you ever looked up their records when both Crosby and Malkin are out of the lineup? As of 2016 they are 48-22-5 when both guys are injured. I don't have the exact record to add to that over the last five years, but we know it's certainly over .500. Essentially they have a better regular season winning percentage when those guys are out than when they are in. That big of a sample size cannot be attributed to luck or randomness.

Strawman, obviously this team has a piss-poor power play and the only strength on the team is the penalty kill which is immediately undermined by the awful goaltending.

You forgot that this is a poorly constructed roster with too many one-dimensional forwards who aren't even all that great at that one dimension. And a prospect pool that has up to this date failed to produce more than one first line caliber producer.

Sure, but they are also better than this. They will finish with a better record than they've got now.

This is a copy/paste statement that never actually comes to pass going on several years now.

 

[JrFischer54]

Because it sets up a narrative and expectations that are unrealistic.

he’s got a point. I mean I don’t follow other hf boards but this board LOVES draft picks. I get it it’s exciting and all that but the hyping up around here and holding out hope when kids clearly aren’t cutting it. It’s well pretty funny.
Are other boards like that?

 

[Buck Dancer]

Then I don't know what you understand about hockey, really, at all. To be a + on last year's team 5v5, to not consider that impressive, to not be impressed with him having to go up against top lines at age 19 and break even against them - I do not know what you are watching. It should be more impressive in the context of this year's team where Kuokkanen and Sharangovich don't look like NHL players.

I see it as the other way around and I'll reply with the same statement you used... If you're actually impressed with what you see of Jack Hughes, then I don't know what you understand about hockey, really, at all.

He's not generating any offense, his decision making with the puck is below average and his lack of intensity on the boards is troubling. We gave this kid a 64M$ contract because of what exactly, potential? What ever happened to the notion that you actually have to show you're good enough to earn the cash you're asking from the team? This team is selling us a dream and the players being put in the for front of it all are nothing more then hype. So we should be happy that Hughes finished the 2021 season with a +, really? That's the stat we're going to ride with to convince everyone that we didn't jump the gun on this kid by handing him something he didn't deserve, at all?

Jack got paired with just about everyone on the team, just to get him going and our coaching staff even broke up the only offensive line we had going for him, so saying that he's playing with 2 guys who look lost in Shara and Kuokkanen is flat out wrong, since he hasn't been paired with them at all this year. If he's going to ask to get paid, he should be making players around him a lot better but he isn't. If he's going to ask to get paid, we shouldn't look to dismantle our only offensive line that was actually working, to pamper the kid and create even more rockus on the team, that is super fragile to begin with.

This last point is not about Jack but more so about Fitz because this idea that we should build a team in the same age group as everyone is flawed and we are seeing the direct results on the ice and in the standings. This country club mentality that is full of kids didn't work in Edmonton and it's not going to work here as well. We have absolutely zero veteran presence and when shit starts hitting the fan, we look absolutely lost. I trully believe that this organisation actually thinks that whatever leaders we have today, will be better in the future and that things will magically click together when guys like Nico, Jack, Bratt, Zacha, Smith, etc will be more "mature" 2 or 3 seasons from now. That's wishful thinking and a load of BS because that's not how it works. Fitz, to me, would be on the hot seat because it doesn't take a genius to hand out contracts to UFA's but it does take one to build a roster of winners and his approach of building a core of kids is the reason why we're yet again, going to pick in the top #10, if not top #5.

 

[NJDevs26]

"massive disappointment"? Isn't that a bit strong? The last game I saw Jack play was against Vegas when he scored the first goal of the game, he also setup Zacha twice which should have been easy tap-ins but goofball flubbed both chances, I know its been repeated many times here but drivers like him need finishers. And we don't have a finisher to spare.

But he also needs to simplify his game, just because he can make a sweet pass does it mean its called for, that backpass he tried on the PP a few games back to Hamilton is a perfect example of that.

But the root cause of our struggles to me is two fold - the special teams and our team defense. I don't know any team who can have success when those two areas are such disasters.

The D hasn’t even been a major issue this year outside of Ty Smith but I was more referring to the last few years than this year specifically in any case. Has the PP been a major issue of course, but is it going to be fixed by canning Recchi and keeping the same galaxy brain system the committee wants to run? It’s only getting fixed when the committee realizes their system and process is full of crap.

As far as Hughes pointing out instances where wingers didn’t finish his passes is more excuse making, everyone has that happen. Bratt’s on pace for a high 60 point season with the same cast of characters. Hughes was supposed to have elite vision and playmaking skill and so far he’s still comparing unfavorably to someone like Scott Gomez for example.

 

[JrFischer54]

No reason to get bent of shape for this team when they clearly don’t reciprocate the following back to their fans. Any serious franchise would’ve canned Recchi 10-15 games in when the powerplay was costing them points or fired Ruff off this stretch. I would just watch for the guys like Hughes, Hamliton, Bratt and Nico when he gets back. Anyone else probably shouldn’t have any close attachment with regards to the future.

real question but has an assistant coach been fired in season before a head coach is? I don't get how/when did assistants have so much say in operations of game planning and such? I mean its kinda like football with offense and defense coordinators

 

[MadDevil]

he’s got a point. I mean I don’t follow other hf boards but this board LOVES draft picks. I get it it’s exciting and all that but the hyping up around here and holding out hope when kids clearly aren’t cutting it. It’s well pretty funny.
Are other boards like that?

It's natural to be optimistic your prospects are good. Otherwise you'd end up being a miserable shit. But I guess some people enjoy that, so to each their own.

 

[Lou is God]

If you can take the c from Elias you can certainly take it from nico. A ton of people wanted this roster of youth. I don’t give a damn about injury scare with tarasenko that’s the only way the devils would get a player like him here unless you want to overpay come ufa time to lure someone here.

Just because it was done once before does it mean it should be done again and I wanted us to pull the trigger for Tarasenko, questionable shoulder and all, but you're selling it like his health was not a factor.

 

[JrFischer54]

Please tell me in your infinite wisdom how stripping Nico of the "C" would turn the fortunes of the team around?

its a start maybe it trickles down and maybe start to hold players accountable for their lack of effort or mistakes. he didn't even earn it he was given it because he was going to be here the longest and the former #1 pick. i'm not blaming the devils they are following the trend in the nhl of giving it to young long term (signed) players. imo no one should get it

 

[MadDevil]

Elias was stripped of the "C" by a jackass coach I doubt many here have fond memories of.

 

[JrFischer54]

It's natural to be optimistic your prospects are good. Otherwise you'd end up being a miserable shit. But I guess some people enjoy that, so to each their own.

i'm not talking about optimistic but hey to each their own.

 

[NJDevs26]

Just because it was done once before does it mean it should be done again and I wanted us to pull the trigger for Tarasenko, questionable shoulder and all, but you're selling it like his health was not a factor.

Not to mention they never actually traded him regardless of any so-called rumors and still don’t want to trade him despite him wanting out and his value increasing after a hot start, so he was never really on the block to begin with.

 

[JrFischer54]

Elias was stripped of the "C" by a jackass coach I doubt many here have fond memories of.

but the team survived. what do people think will happen if the c is taken from nico? honest question like what negative consequences?

 

[JrFischer54]

Just because it was done once before does it mean it should be done again and I wanted us to pull the trigger for Tarasenko, questionable shoulder and all, but you're selling it like his health was not a factor.

again i do not care if his health was a factor. rumors were the price was pretty low on him you take the gamble if it didn't work out you stick him on ltir and hes gone in two years move on. the only way the devils will get a player like that is 1 to overpay come ufa or 2 trade on the low and hope for a bounce back. the third option which i know NO ONE on here would ever go for is trading legit top package for a legit top player.

 

[NJDevs26]

I mean if we’re going to go by the it can’t get any worse theory then sure, go hog wild. But stripping Nico of the C realistically isn’t going to solve jack and isn’t going to happen anyway since Fitz’s whole tenure is riding on Nico and Jack. Not do I believe Nico is struggling to score goals because of some sense of entitlement, Nico’s pretty much the last guy I worry about from that standpoint despite my issues with his stagnant scoring totals.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

its a start maybe it trickles down and maybe start to hold players accountable for their lack of effort or mistakes. he didn't even earn it he was given it because he was going to be here the longest and the former #1 pick. i'm not blaming the devils they are following the trend in the nhl of giving it to young long term (signed) players. imo no one should get it

So let's take away Nico's "C"? What kind of message would that send to the rest of the league about this team? That we appoint a Captain, and not even a year later, for apparently absolutely no reason of anything he did we strip him of the captaincy. Unbelievable. Who are we looking to replace Nico with, Dougie, Jack, who is this Captain in waiting that would help change everything overnight? And what would you do with Nico then? Do you think he would want to stay if you took away the "C"? Do you think players around the league would look at New Jersey as a place they would want to sign with then? Hey, let me sign a deal with the Devils and then they will ship me out to Winnipeg. Maybe you can list some examples when this has been done in the NHL with good results, so we know what to expect.

 

[guitarguyvic]

So let's take away Nico's "C"? What kind of message would that send to the rest of the league about this team? That we appoint a Captain, and not even a year later, for apparently absolutely no reason of anything he did we strip him of the captaincy. Unbelievable. Who are we looking to replace Nico with, Dougie, Jack, who is this Captain in waiting that would help change everything overnight? And what would you do with Nico then? Do you think he would want to stay if you took away the "C"? Do you think players around the league would look at New Jersey as a place they would want to sign with then? Hey, let me sign a deal with the Devils and then they will ship me out to Winnipeg. Maybe you can list some examples when this has been done in the NHL with good results, so we know what to expect.

I agree with all of this...unfortunately what it reveals is that this organization's culture sucks. Nico should not have been gifted the C. No one should have considering that not a single player on this roster has proven diddly squat both in terms of leadership or on-ice results. But that's the kind of environment this franchise is building...one where players are handed the keys to the castle not based on what they actually are, but rather where they were drafted and being below a certain age.

 

[Blackjack]

again i do not care if his health was a factor. rumors were the price was pretty low on him you take the gamble if it didn't work out you stick him on ltir and hes gone in two years move on. the only way the devils will get a player like that is 1 to overpay come ufa or 2 trade on the low and hope for a bounce back. the third option which i know NO ONE on here would ever go for is trading legit top package for a legit top player.

Tarasenko played 34 hockey games in the previous two seasons and had yet to return from a surgically repaired shoulder that had been injured so many times that there was speculation it could cost him his career. He is 10 months younger than Kyle Palmieri, a player that saw his production fall off a cliff last year.

Yes, I wanted the Devils to take a shot on Tarasenko, if the price was right. By all accounts, St. Louis wanted a significant return for the player in addition to no retention. It wasn't just the Devils: 30 other GMs also decided that they couldn't take that chance. One of them didn't even take Tarasenko for free.

 

[JrFischer54]

So let's take away Nico's "C"? What kind of message would that send to the rest of the league about this team? That we appoint a Captain, and not even a year later, for apparently absolutely no reason of anything he did we strip him of the captaincy. Unbelievable. Who are we looking to replace Nico with, Dougie, Jack, who is this Captain in waiting that would help change everything overnight? And what would you do with Nico then? Do you think he would want to stay if you took away the "C"? Do you think players around the league would look at New Jersey as a place they would want to sign with then? Hey, let me sign a deal with the Devils and then they will ship me out to Winnipeg. Maybe you can list some examples when this has been done in the NHL with good results, so we know what to expect.

holy shit man do you read this stuff? you make it sound like this is a team of freaking babies! and if its remotely close to like this on the actual team then 1000000000% yes this franchise is in huge trouble. first what msg would it send to the league? uh who cares? last time i looked players aren't beating down the door to come here and i think another bottom 3 finish hurts our "image" a lot more then taking away a letter. second the reason we are taking it away is because the team isn't responding to his "leadership" its actually going backwards. we don't replace him with anyone until its earned go without a captain. yes i do expect nico to stay because hes an adult and i would hope a professional and can understand that. if he can't? then he shouldn't be captain anyway. you don't need to look far for an example this team did it with elias. his number is hanging in the rafters it worked out ok

 

[Buck Dancer]

Not to mention they never actually traded him regardless of any so-called rumors and still don’t want to trade him despite him wanting out and his value increasing after a hot start, so he was never really on the block to begin with.

Tarasenko was definitly on the block but nobody met Armstrong's price, so they kept him because they know what he can bring to their team. St-Louis held their ground with their star player and they look like geniuses. People were acting as if he was a cap dump because of his 7M$ deal and the fact that he was coming off a shoulder injury. He's definitly a gamble I would've taken because he's part of the pieces we lack on this team, a shooting winger but we got Tomas Tatar instead, who's not a shooting winger and is build like all the water bugs on our roster.

 

[Lou is God]

The D hasn’t even been a major issue this year outside of Ty Smith but I was more referring to the last few years than this year specifically in any case. Has the PP been a major issue of course, but is it going to be fixed by canning Recchi and keeping the same galaxy brain system the committee wants to run? It’s only getting fixed when the committee realizes their system and process is full of crap.

As far as Hughes pointing out instances where wingers didn’t finish his passes is more excuse making, everyone has that happen. Bratt’s on pace for a high 60 point season with the same cast of characters. Hughes was supposed to have elite vision and playmaking skill and so far he’s still comparing unfavorably to someone like Scott Gomez for example.

I'm not talking about our blueline, I'm talking about team defense. And who is the committee? Not even sure how we got into talking about Recchi.

And I'm going to give a 20-year old who just got over a shoulder injury the benefit of the doubt, you can call it whatever you like. But that benefit of the doubt does have an expiration date, it's just not this year.