Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Empoleon8771]

Are we really saying EK65 can only be effective on 32nd best defensive team in the league (Sharks), but the 31st best defensive team (Penguins) is just too rigid in their structure for him to succeed?

San Jose let Karlsson play as a rover and completely disregard defense to produce a lot. The Penguins are trying to get Karlsson to play within a structure. It has nothing to do with the quality of their defenses, it’s what they’re asking Karlsson to do.

If Karlsson can’t be effective when being asked to play like Letang, he isn’t a useful piece whatsoever on a good team. Which the Penguins aren’t anymore, but the larger issue is that they won’t be able to trade him for value down the line.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

This is just another Malkin/Sid dynamic. Saw it with MJ, too. Crosby is either injured or has already sussed out that this is truly hopeless and is going through the doldrums of coping with that new reality while Malkin only knows that the team is losing and he's gotta try even THAT much harder to try to win. It's adorable but also kinda sad.



The EK thing was the final nail in my "improve overall team offense from the back end" hope. If you can't do that with Karlsson you can't do it with anyone.

Before the season started, I clearly said I was willing to give the team 10ish games under Quinn because I had a suspicion that Rierden was a big problem. . . And they look worse now than they did last year. I want to see what EK looks like with Sullivan gone. The question now is how big of a hole this team has to get in to drop Sullivan.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Before the season started, I clearly said I was willing to give the team 10ish games under Quinn because I had a suspicion that Rierden was a big problem. . . And they look worse now than they did last year. I want to see what EK looks like with Sullivan gone. The question now is how big of a hole this team has to get in to drop Sullivan.

They are not going to fire Sullivan.

Not soon enough to do Crosby etc. any good, at least.

I imagine the deal with Quinn's likely-useless ass is that Sullivan accepted that Reirden was allowed to be fired so long as he got to in turn hire his buddy. I would not place much hope in Quinn for helping much. Though at this desperate point I would take him as an interim coach just because that would mean Sullivan is finally gone.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

San Jose let Karlsson play as a rover and completely disregard defense to produce a lot. The Penguins are trying to get Karlsson to play within a structure. It has nothing to do with the quality of their defenses, it’s what they’re asking Karlsson to do.

If Karlsson can’t be effective when being asked to play like Letang, he isn’t a useful piece whatsoever on a good team. Which the Penguins aren’t anymore, but the larger issue is that they won’t be able to trade him for value down the line.

Is Karlsson not playing better than Letang? Granted they’re both playing like the worst defensemen on the Pens.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is Karlsson not playing better than Letang? Granted they’re both playing like the worst defensemen on the Pens.

Difference is that Letang is old and costs about 60% of what Karlsson costs.

Either way, I’m worried about this from a “trade for value” perspective. Letang isn’t going to be traded because his contract is gross. Karlsson could be traded as a rental down the line, but if he can’t perform like an effective player in a structure (and he needs to be a rover to be a net positive), they won’t get any sort of value for him. Which makes the original Karlsson trade even worse.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Dubas hasn't done enough to get good will from Penguins fans here.

Even a polite interpretation of his job so far would be "poor".

I just don’t agree. We have a prospect and pick pipeline that has already tangibly improved from when he started, and acquired EK, which was the big gamble/big ticket move everyone wanted when he got here. I don’t see how you can label his tenure here as poor when he is being forced to walk a line between remaining competitive now with his best players in their late 30’s and rebuilding the pool for later.

Difference is that Letang is old and costs about 60% of what Karlsson costs.

Either way, I’m worried about this from a “trade for value” perspective. Letang isn’t going to be traded because his contract is gross. Karlsson could be traded as a rental down the line, but if he can’t perform like an effective player in a structure (and he needs to be a rover to be a net positive), they won’t get any sort of value for him. Which makes the original Karlsson trade even worse.

The Penguins dumped useless players and gave up a 1st for Karlsson. Really doesn’t seem like a bad trade at all. And I get that Karlsson’s cap hit is high, but we also traded away cap space dedicated to net-negative players anyway. We weren’t getting rid of that cap space without losing picks.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I just don’t agree. We have a prospect and pick pipeline that has already tangibly improved from when he started, and acquired EK, which was the big gamble/big ticket move everyone wanted when he got here. I don’t see how you can label his tenure here as poor when he is being forced to walk a line between remaining competitive now with his best players in their late 30’s and rebuilding the pool for later.

If the GM is being forced to do ANYTHING he's useless and I don't want him here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just don’t agree. We have a prospect and pick pipeline that has already tangibly improved from when he started, and acquired EK, which was the big gamble/big ticket move everyone wanted when he got here. I don’t see how you can label his tenure here as poor when he is being forced to walk a line between remaining competitive now with his best players in their late 30’s and rebuilding the pool for later.


The Penguins dumped useless players and gave up a 1st for Karlsson. Really doesn’t seem like a bad trade at all. And I get that Karlsson’s cap hit is high, but we also traded away cap space dedicated to net-negative players anyway.

How is it a good trade if it turns out Karlsson can't play effectively if he's not allowed to play outside of the system? Even if the Penguins stink, that trade could be partially worth it if Karlsson can provide them value and then they trade him down the line for assets. But if Karlsson can't provide value unless they're saying "go be a rover out there", the Penguins aren't getting value out of that. No contending team is going to trade for Karlsson to play for them if he needs to play outside of the system to be effective. If he can't be effective playing within a structure of a team, no good team is going to want him. He's a bad team player who just farms points on bad teams.

We weren’t getting rid of that cap space without losing picks.

They would have gotten it by just sitting on those players and letting their contracts expire, while they would have kept the 1st to do that.

 

[eXile3]

I love how EK is taking the brunt of the bad defense like no one else is playing awfully. Go ahead and bench him. Trade him and retain.

The results will be the same. You can’t fix a structural issue by getting rid of one bad defender.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

How is it a good trade if it turns out Karlsson can't play effectively if he's not allowed to play outside of the system? Even if the Penguins stink, that trade could be partially worth it if Karlsson can provide them value and then they trade him down the line for assets. But if Karlsson can't provide value unless they're saying "go be a rover out there", the Penguins aren't getting value out of that. No contending team is going to trade for Karlsson to play for them if he needs to play outside of the system to be effective. If he can't be effective playing within a structure of a team, no good team is going to want him. He's a bad team player who just farms points on bad teams.



They would have gotten it by just sitting on those players and letting their contracts expire, while they would have kept the 1st to do that.

Karlsson provided net positive last year and is doing so this year, even though the optics are terrible. But the entire defense is playing like shit. If a new GM hires good players and they turn to shit in the coach’s system along with every other player that plays their position, then the issue isn’t the GM.

 

[Sideline]

I love how EK is taking the brunt of the bad defense like no one else is playing awfully. Go ahead and bench him. Trade him and retain.

The results will be the same. You can’t fix a structural issue by getting rid of one bad defender.

He's getting it like Phil got it in Toronto. Absolutely elite talent that needs a bit of creative and flexibility to coach.

 

[SEALBound]

Getting extreme, are there teams out there that would give us value for Karlsson at $5mil (50% retained)?

Honeslty, I think we have the core 4 until their deals expire. Gonna be like Marleau in SJ.

That's okay though, as long as they are a bottom 3 team next year.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

If the GM is being forced to do ANYTHING he's useless and I don't want him here.

So if it turns out FSG is making the coaching decisions, I guess any GM is useless, period.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I love how EK is taking the brunt of the bad defense like no one else is playing awfully. Go ahead and bench him. Trade him and retain.

The results will be the same. You can’t fix a structural issue by getting rid of one bad defender.

Literally who is saying that anyone else on the defense is playing well?

I'm talking about Karlsson from the perspective of "can they get value for him?". I don't give a shit if Graves or Letang is playing like shit because I know they're not getting shit back for them in a trade.

This team sucks and needs to be selling off pieces and acquiring futures. Karlsson is perhaps the biggest trade chip they have, and he's playing like diarrhea right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

I love how EK is taking the brunt of the bad defense like no one else is playing awfully. Go ahead and bench him. Trade him and retain.

The results will be the same. You can’t fix a structural issue by getting rid of one bad defender.

Don't worry. Malkin's scoring will dry up soon and he'll get it.

Notice how Sid isn't getting anything from the media despite being arguably the worst C on the roster so far this year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

So if it turns out FSG is making the coaching decisions, I guess any GM is useless, period.

Pretty much.

Why go to bat for some pathetic little toady? If this is true then he willingly put himself in this position and I just can't have much respect for that as it's basically just chasing the bag and shrugging about any REAL aspirations he might have about GMing the team to success.

If Kyle Dubas actually does something that shows he's allowed to make real decisions that can impact what the team's trajectory is going to be the next few years by firing the coach and trading favorites like Rust, Eller, Raks, etc. then I'll give him his laurels. Until then he's just a lame duck empty suit.

You're right that he's done at least a good job rebuilding the farm. Fat lotta good it will do with Mike Sullivan coaching that future up.

 

[Gurglesons]

imagine the narratives if you swapped Sid and Malkin.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also if the results are no different with Karlsson than without Karlsson, why the hell are they paying him $10 million a year?

Again, I don't even care about the W/L of this team anymore. They're totally toast, they're completely done. I care about what they can get in terms of picks and prospects for these guys. And right now, it's really looking like the Penguins traded a 1st (that they really shouldn't have traded) for a guy that they won't be able to get much value back for and won't win with. Which I don't know how you can call that anything but a massive failure.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

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imagine the narratives if you swapped Sid and Malkin.

I love both players so I try not to think about this too much.

But yes. This is a thing.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Question for you all...what would the Penguins be willing to give up to get rid of Karlsson's contract?

 

[eXile3]

Literally who is saying that anyone else on the defense is playing well?

I'm talking about Karlsson from the perspective of "can they get value for him?". I don't give a shit if Graves or Letang is playing like shit because I know they're not getting shit back for them in a trade.

This team sucks and needs to be selling off pieces and acquiring futures. Karlsson is perhaps the biggest trade chip they have, and he's playing like diarrhea right now.

That might be why you’re doing but the narrative that he’s the reason we suck at playing D certainly seems to be building.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Question for you all...what would the Penguins be willing to give up to get rid of Karlsson's contract?

How about you just give us Granlund back?

It is perhaps possible that would make Mike Sullivan's head explode and we're all ready.

 

[Gurglesons]

Question for you all...what would the Penguins be willing to give up to get rid of Karlsson's contract?

Nothing.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Question for you all...what would the Penguins be willing to give up to get rid of Karlsson's contract?

Pens arent in the position to or need to trade out of any contract. They will just ride out all the garbage salaries they have

 

[Ulf5]

Question for you all...what would the Penguins be willing to give up to get rid of Karlsson's contract?

Nothing. We're in no position to compete either way. So why would we pay assets to trade him?
Besides, at 50% retention next season he'll have decent positive value at $5 million for 2 years when we get some retention spots back. Especially if the cap rises again as expected.