Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Empoleon8771]

Love Jesse, but now Sid and Rust stinking up the joint is also Karlsson’s fault, maybe it’s other way around

Karlsson has been horrendously bad this year.

 

[vodeni]

Jesse on Locked On Penguins podcast today says the “soup’s gone bad,” by way of explanation for the current team woes lol…says they’re playing the same system Sullivan had in place 8 years ago— aggressive with two forecheckers back trying to break out pucks and because it’s stale and they’re older, it’s not working…thinks the players looking like a beer league team haven’t given up on Sullivan regardless of what it looks like…says they’re trying to play the system as implemented and just can’t lol…really damning towards the coach…again, why hasn’t he been fired yet? Also notes that teams have adjusted to Sullivan’s puck overload D system by throwing the puck to the other part of the ice and the players can’t adjust..why not try something else? lol

Hilarious aggressive forechecking with two guys that are always late, by the time they get to the dman puck is already in our half, with numbers advantage

 

[Gurglesons]

No we won't. But what's the point of signing DOC to some 5 year contract? With lottery luck we MIGHT be able to contend about the tome his contract is up. Rather just trade him for what we can, be it a 3rd or whatver.

If DOC is a 20 goal 20 assist guy who can PK by the deadline at 900k I think you could potentially get a 1st for him.

Hagel was a lot younger, but a 37 point forward in 55 games after putting up 24 in 52.

I dunno will be interesting.

 

[Empoleon8771]

On O'Connor, if this team wasn't terrible I'd be all for re-signing him. But as is, I don't think you can justify doing it. They're better off getting the 2nd+ that he'll likely bring back as a rental than giving him a bloated deal that probably won't look good halfway through it. He was a nice development story for this team, but it just doesn't make sense for the Penguins to pay him. Same situation as Pettersson.

I'm at the point where I wouldn't re-sign any UFA and would just fully tear down the roster. There's a limit for how much you can do, like I doubt you can trade all of Karlsson, Rust and Rakell right now, but this team is fully in nuking territory at this point. This team going forward should only be the big guns, young players and cast-offs that the Penguins are being paid to take.

 

[vodeni]

Karlsson has been horrendously bad this year.

That’s already established, the point is that his being bad is now the reason why the others (L1 etc…) stink

 

[SEALBound]

Try to follow along SEALBound. I know it's hard when you are just trying to read my posts to poke holes in the argument.

# 1. Stop playing useless players like Beauvillier in the top nine because nobody will give you shit for a player like Beauvillier as evidence by him being traded multiple times for nothing in recent years.

# 2. Play cheap younger players in the top nine who can potentially up their value. See Drew O'Connor on Crosby's wing. Pump up their production.

# 3. Trade players that are cheap and young for additional draft picks. Draft players and then utilize them in a similar way or have them be in the age group of the new "core".

DOC and Puljujarvi's production is practically the same as Beauvillier who is 27 compared to JP/DOC at 26.

How do DOC and Puljujarvi get more than Beauvillier at this point? I would suggest Beauvillier has proven more than either of those two at the moment.

The point of a guy like Beauvillier is that it's a cheap, 1yr deal. If he works, great. If not, you do exactly what you are suggesting they do with Poulin, JP, and DOC.

If they trade those four then next year, you get four Beauvilliers or more guys like Harkins because no one is trading their quality mid-20s guys and if they do, it's for as much as we traded our guys for...so why do it?

If our window is in five years, what you are ignoring is the fact that you still need players to fill out the roster for the next five years. There's just so little value in trading Puustinen, Poulin, and DOC right now unless a team wants to objectively overpay. I'd move any of them for a 1st or 2nd. 3rd, meh. 4th or less, why bother.

 

[Pancakes]

Karlsson has been horrendously bad this year.

I honestly wonder if he's playing hurt. He didn't play in training camp and then he was magically ready for game 1 and he's been complete garbage all season long and looks slow and overmatched physically.

 

[SEALBound]

On O'Connor, if this team wasn't terrible I'd be all for re-signing him. But as is, I don't think you can justify doing it. They're better off getting the 2nd+ that he'll likely bring back as a rental than giving him a bloated deal that probably won't look good halfway through it. He was a nice development story for this team, but it just doesn't make sense for the Penguins to pay him. Same situation as Pettersson.

I'm at the point where I wouldn't re-sign any UFA and would just fully tear down the roster. There's a limit for how much you can do, like I doubt you can trade all of Karlsson, Rust and Rakell right now, but this team is fully in nuking territory at this point. This team going forward should only be the big guns, young players and cast-offs that the Penguins are being paid to take.

I think DOC is irrelevant either way but I'd rather keep him as a capable roster player. I'd be too concerned with the replacement being a Lizotte/Acciari/Eller type deal where it's an expensive middling player on multi-year deal.

Eller, Acciari, Hayes, Lizotte, Rust, Rakell, and Beauvillier - sure get what you can for them.

 

[Andy99]

I honestly wonder if he's playing hurt. He didn't play in training camp and then he was magically ready for game 1 and he's been complete garbage all season long and looks slow and overmatched physically.

It seems like he’s using the season to get in shape…hopefully he doesn’t tank us while he does lol

 

[Gurglesons]

DOC and Puljujarvi's production is practically the same as Beauvillier who is 27 compared to JP/DOC at 26.

How do DOC and Puljujarvi get more than Beauvillier at this point? I would suggest Beauvillier has proven more than either of those two at the moment.

The point of a guy like Beauvillier is that it's a cheap, 1yr deal. If he works, great. If not, you do exactly what you are suggesting they do with Poulin, JP, and DOC.

If they trade those four then next year, you get four Beauvilliers or more guys like Harkins because no one is trading their quality mid-20s guys and if they do, it's for as much as we traded our guys for...so why do it?

If our window is in five years, what you are ignoring is the fact that you still need players to fill out the roster for the next five years. There's just so little value in trading Puustinen, Poulin, and DOC right now unless a team wants to objectively overpay. I'd move any of them for a 1st or 2nd. 3rd, meh. 4th or less, why bother.

here i'm gonna say it slowly.

that
is
why
you
put
them
in
a
situation
where
they
can
gain
value
and
it
could
result
in
a
team
overpaying
for
them.

Beauvillier is a smurf. Poulin and DOC aren't. That adds to what a team wants at the deadline.

 

[SEALBound]

I honestly wonder if he's playing hurt. He didn't play in training camp and then he was magically ready for game 1 and he's been complete garbage all season long and looks slow and overmatched physically.

Did it ever come out what the injury was that he was dealing with? If I remember correctly, it seemed like it was a nagging, longer-term injury.

here i'm gonna say it slowly.

that
is
why
you
put
them
in
a
situation
where
they
can
gain
value
and
it
could
result
in
a
team
overpaying
for
them.

Wish in one hand, shit in another bud.

No we won't. But what's the point of signing DOC to some 5 year contract? With lottery luck we MIGHT be able to contend about the tome his contract is up. Rather just trade him for what we can, be it a 3rd or whatver.

DOC isn't getting a 5yr deal unless it's for some crazy low AAV. $1.5mil for 5 years?

He's looking at a 2x2 this off season. Every team has a DOC on it.

 

[Gurglesons]

I honestly wonder if he's playing hurt. He didn't play in training camp and then he was magically ready for game 1 and he's been complete garbage all season long and looks slow and overmatched physically.

Wouldn't be surprised to hear both Sid and EK are hurt. Sid looks like he did when he had his sports hernia.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Did it ever come out what the injury was that he was dealing with? If I remember correctly, it seemed like it was a nagging, longer-term injury.

"How TF Did I End Up Right Back In The Same Situation Again-itis"

 

[Pancakes]

Wouldn't be surprised to hear both Sid and EK are hurt. Sid looks like he did when he had his sports hernia.

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me. Neither has much explosiveness in their game.

Sid in particular hasn't looked this bad since he was trying to get MJ fired so I wonder if he's doing his passive aggressive play badly to get a coach fired thing. But if that is what he's doing then him and Malkin don't seem united on that front because Geno is playing with a lot of passion.

Or it could just be injuries/age/bad linemates *shrug*

Did it ever come out what the injury was that he was dealing with? If I remember correctly, it seemed like it was a nagging, longer-term injury.

I don't recall hearing any specifics about EK's injury.

 

[BusinessGoose]

What did they try to make EK into? EK just being a rover that puts up a billion points isn't viable for a team trying to be good. That's what he does on dogshit teams.

If Karlsson wants to ever be able to play on a contending team again, he needs to be an OFD that can play within a team's structure. He has had issues with that in both this year and last year, with this year being especially bad. Karlsson can't play like he did in San Jose on a good team, he needs to be able to be a play driving OFD with structure.

Sullivan doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt due to how many guys are brought in and just don't fit on the team, but I genuinely think Karlsson's issues here are because of Karlsson, not Sullivan.

I think my post was misinterpreted

I meant to more say, why do you get EK and expect him to not be EK? You get EK and let him do his thing. Or you don't, because you don't want to run your team in a way that he gets success. He's basically a more intense version of Letang. Letang is never getting a Norris based on his defense, either.

It's like having Jagr focus on backchecking. It's stupid to expect that. You get him for sick ass wrist shots.

EK was supposed to be exciting by driving play. Instead he's a worse defensively Pettersson. And 2.5 the cost. It's painful to watch.

 

[SEALBound]

"How TF Did I End Up Right Back In The Same Situation Again-itis"

Need RandyButternubs to photoshop EK's head on Principal Skinner's body in the "am i out of touch? no it's the children that are wrong" meme.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think my post was misinterpreted

I meant to more say, why do you get EK and expect him to not be EK? You get EK and let him do his thing. Or you don't, because you don't want to run your team in a way that he gets success. He's basically a more intense version of Letang. Letang is never getting a Norris based on his defense, either.

It's like having Jagr focus on backchecking. It's stupid to expect that. You get him for sick ass wrist shots.

EK was supposed to be exciting by driving play. Instead he's a worse defensively Pettersson. And 2.5 the cost. It's painful to watch.

I do not know how you can come to this conclusion.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me. Neither has much explosiveness in their game.

Sid in particular hasn't looked this bad since he was trying to get MJ fired so I wonder if he's doing his passive aggressive play badly to get a coach fired thing. But if that is what he's doing then him and Malkin don't seem united on that front because Geno is playing with a lot of passion.

This is just another Malkin/Sid dynamic. Saw it with MJ, too. Crosby is either injured or has already sussed out that this is truly hopeless and is going through the doldrums of coping with that new reality while Malkin only knows that the team is losing and he's gotta try even THAT much harder to try to win. It's adorable but also kinda sad.

I think my post was misinterpreted

I meant to more say, why do you get EK and expect him to not be EK? You get EK and let him do his thing. Or you don't, because you don't want to run your team in a way that he gets success. He's basically a more intense version of Letang. Letang is never getting a Norris based on his defense, either.

It's like having Jagr focus on backchecking. It's stupid to expect that. You get him for sick ass wrist shots.

EK was supposed to be exciting by driving play. Instead he's a worse defensively Pettersson. And 2.5 the cost. It's painful to watch.

The EK thing was the final nail in my "improve overall team offense from the back end" hope. If you can't do that with Karlsson you can't do it with anyone.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

You get an offensive man because you want an offensive dman

Why we got EK to make him into a something else is insanity



It's like buying a brand new car and driving it into a lake to make it a submarine instead then going into the media to say youre disappointed it isn't coming back to the surface

I would be pissed if I were EK here

Yup- I've been saying this forever

They bought a Ferrari and are asking it to tow trucks out of the mud.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Karlsson isn’t being brought in and told to change his style drastically, he’s being asked to be an offensive driver from the defense while playing decent enough defense. He’s being asked to be similar to Letang. They’re not trying to turn him into a new player, they’re trying to get him to play a style that actually works for teams with championship aspirations. Karlsson not being able to do that is much more his fault, and frankly it’s grim for the idea of the Penguins trading him for value down the line.

If he’s only useful if he’s playing a rover style and putting up a shitload of points, he’s not a player that can at all be useful on a playoff team. He’s an empty calorie point scorer like Granlund, just a defenseman version of it. If asking him to play defense at an okay level is “trying to turn a car into a submarine”, he’s a useless player on any team trying to be good.

 

[Sideline]

I do wonder how EK feels in all of this. The original big 3 all have multiple rings to go with their bags of money and permanent celebrity status in Pittsburgh. EK65 hasn't won a Cup and is trending to be less notable in Pittsburgh than Phil Kessel.

I have to think he's going to want a chance to win. Hopefully he asks out well before the deadline.

 

[BusinessGoose]

If he’s only useful if he’s playing a rover style and putting up a shitload of points, he’s not a player that can at all be useful on a playoff team. He’s an empty calorie point scorer like Granlund, just a defenseman version of it. If asking him to play defense at an okay level is “trying to turn a car into a submarine”, he’s a useless player on any team trying to be good.

I believe this is exactly correct

We also aren't a playoff team, and he still is not delivering this lol

 

[Empoleon8771]

I believe this is exactly correct

We also aren't a playoff team, and he still is not delivering this lol

Totally reasonable to think that but it’s a depressing thought for sure

Makes Dubas look even dumber for trading for him.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Totally reasonable to think that but it’s a depressing thought for sure

Makes Dubas look even dumber for trading for him.

I know

It really sucks man lol

But like, I was totally excited about this experiment

But then, when you look back at his career, he never really has had that success. Yeah sure he was on a usually terrible OTT team. But he was dogshit on SJS for a lot of the time, until the break out points year. We should have seen he wasn't a good fit here. We should have seen it...

 

[Sideline]

Totally reasonable to think that but it’s a depressing thought for sure

Makes Dubas look even dumber for trading for him.

Are we really saying EK65 can only be effective on 32nd best defensive team in the league (Sharks), but the 31st best defensive team (Penguins) is just too rigid in their structure for him to succeed?