Yeah, exactly. I’m not going to claim knowledge of who has what authority. I tend to think that if Dubas left Toronto, he probably came to the Penguins assuming he’d have authority to fire the coach. But I’m also not going to judge and name-call a general manager, whose goal is to have a mid-long term positive impact, on 1 year of tenure. Especially when he’s already made some good moves.
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BusinessGoose
Registered User
The only reasons I criticize Dubas is he hasn't really done a favorable deal and he has brought on too many bloat players in general that are gumming up the pipeline and allowing Sullivan to ice what he is icing.
Mostly.
Mostly.
What do you mean he hasn’t done a favorable deal? I interpret that to mean he hasn’t made any net positive trades, which he absolutely has.
BusinessGoose
Registered User
What player here now vs 18 months ago has moved the needle?
What cap space has he opened up?
AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
A lot of people are really angry with the state of the team and feel compelled to direct it at the easiest targets without analyzing things at all.
It's always been like that here, whenever things are going poorly.
The reality is Dubas has made good trades. The Graves signing looks bad, but we're only on the start of year 2 and don't know how it'll go from here.
The Jarry one is flexing with hindsight. Goalies are random, and he's been good in this league before.
The lower cost signings have been pretty reasonable.
Wilkes certainly improved thanks to him too.
Dubas has made some very shrewd moves to obtain more and higher quality picks. They aren’t blockbusters, but over time with more moves like this, we will build a more robust prospect pool. The Glass, Hayes, and Blues pick swap deals are all net positives for this team. And frankly, the Karlsson trade was fantastic. We dumped a bunch of net negative players and traded a 1st round pick to take a shot on an HOF lock who scored 56 points on a down year in a defensive system that is looking to soon expire.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Granlund has 70 points in 78 games with the Sharks.
It’s weird how the McCann trade is often brought up as a franchise killer, but Granlund is consistently referred to as “a net negative”.
Also he traded a 1st and a 2nd. The 1st became a potential franchise defenseman in Dickinson (I don’t think he makes it there, but that is the high end of him as a prospect.)
the one constant is that sully needs to go. we just lack the proper info to know can/will do it.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Sullivan needs to be fired. Ultimately, that is on the GM.
Giving Dubas excuses like “he’s made very good moves” because his situation was “very difficult to navigate” is loser mentality in my mind.
Dubas was given the type of contract a star player gets in the NHL. He was paid to come in and turn our situation into a positive one. Instead, he’s given away prime future assets in our 2024 1st and potentially Yager for “win now” pieces in McG and Karsson.
It’s weird how people refuse to hold him accountable because he did the easiest thing in the world in taking back a bad contract for a 2nd and moving Reilly Smith for a 2nd.
Big Friggin Dummy
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2019
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I mean, there's enough dysfunction and idiocy for the blame to be spread around. Why does it have to be "pick a side" when all sides are at fault? This "pick one thing" stuff is stupid and lazy. Pretty much everyone from ownership (past and present), the FO (past and present), and coach are guilty of stupid bullshit that's cratered this team over the years. But there's been one constant; Sullivan.
We know who Sully is. We know why he sucks. We know he's never gonna change. Dude needed fired after the 2020 play-in where he torpedoed the team by overplaying JJ-Schultz and refusing to mix up lines that weren't working. That's after he just shrugged and decided he wasn't gonna do anything about the Isles' forecheck shredding this team in a playoff sweep in 2019.
Pretty much every public facing decision FSG has made since taking over has been dogshit. They extended Sully two years before his current deal was even up after this team had their fourth consecutive 1st round embarrassment with Sully at the helm.
Dubas is a guy I'm largely waiting to judge for the post-Sid era because this era's been done and dusted for years. But you can still pick apart and analyze his moves/non-moves now, though again, I don't think they matter nearly as much as what he does to get this team built back up to competing again. I think taking on Glass and Hayes for picks was good. I think keeping the "we'll see how it goes" signings of Beau and Grz to 1yr deals was good. I think the EK deal was a mistake in hindsight, though I was for it at the time. I think the Graves deal was awful, and I wanted him signed. I think the Jarry deal was f***ing awful, and that's not a hindsight thing. My biggest gripe is his insistence that Sully is some mastermind coach who needs to be kept around despite all the mountains of evidence to the contrary.
That doesn't even touch on the issues of JR and Hextall's FOs, or Mario's ownership decisions as his time wound down as the head honcho.
Things have been bad for a very long time.
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Gurglesons
Registered User
I mean 31 GMs have that ability. Seems weird the one getting paid 49 million on a seven year contract doesn’t. But, I guess whatever excuses Dubas since that seems to be the vibe we are going for.
BlindWillyMcHurt
ti kallisti
- May 31, 2004
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lol if the GM willingly came on board even knowing that his hands would be tied then he's definitely a loser.
pistolpete11
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2013
- 11,863
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The problem is that Sullivan ruins players. Trying to parse out how much it was Dubas making a bad decision and how much is Sullivan is a bigger waste of time than talking about hockey on a message board already is.
Even his 2 biggest mistakes, Jarry and Graves, have shown to be capable in the past. Maybe they turn it around under a new coach.
BusinessGoose
Registered User
It is pretty funny.
KD was about to just be jobless for an indefinite amount of time.
Then he decided to make millions in a position without power.
If he had morals, he would quit because he can't run the team properly and go back to being jobless.
But millions can make anyone close their eyes
Gurglesons
Registered User
pistolpete11
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2013
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They did from me. I've been wanting Sullivan fired since the Islanders sweep because even though those rosters weren't always perfect, they were better than what Sullivan got out of them....just like this team.
Pens x
Registered User
- Oct 8, 2016
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it’s incredible there are still so many people here defending Dubas. I feel like I am living in 2020 when so many here refused to criticize Sully.
CheckingLineCenter
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2018
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I’ll happily be a loser then for $42 mil guaranteed lol
This team so stale. They just need to fire Sullivan.
It doesn’t matter who is GM or what moves they make. Same problems persist across 3 GMs and different ideas and players brought in. The entire roster has been turned over 2x now.
BlindWillyMcHurt
ti kallisti
- May 31, 2004
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Hey sure I mean that's a lot of money to turn down.
It's just unfortunate for us fans if that's the case. Though I do not really believe it to be. I think Dubas essentially likes Sullivan as much as ownership, a lot of Penguins fans and much of the league seems to.
Which of course at this juncture makes him a dolt. But this team is dusted anyway and clearly nobody who can actually make any decisions cares so why should I.
Jag68Sid87
Sullivan gots to go!
I get this. I do. However, if what Frank Seravalli said on his podcast last week is true...that Sullivan and members of FSG were at Red Sox games together and had meals together over the summer...
...it seems kinda difficult for a subordinate from Sault Ste-Marie, ON to fire THAT. No matter how much money he is making. If anything, it feels like Dubas is getting paid to speak eloquently in the rare pressers they have, and not get in the way of the Massachusetts mafia.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Well, if Sullivan went to a Red Sox game with FSG member. It's pretty much over.
Jag68Sid87
Sullivan gots to go!
The Montreal series was the last straw for me. But yeah, ever since the Capitals beat us in 2018, that fire Sullivan window opened for me. The biggest warning sign that Sullivan was becoming too big for his britches was the Phil Kessel situation.
He obviously did not like the player, but nobody in the organization told him that he NEEDED this player, or someone equivalent, in order to continue to be successful. And nobody is telling him that today! This is why Sullivan can now demote Jesse Puljujarvi despite solid production in limited minutes. Who the F is Jesse Puljujarvi anyway? I am a two-time, back-to-back Stanley Cup winning head coach. I know what is best.
And that is where we are today.
KrisLetAngry
MrJukeBoy
I also lean towards Ownership has to let Dubas fire Sullivan. Sullivan is on his 3rd Management group head now.
Rutherford to Hextall/Burke to Dubas.
- Jun 13, 2010
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That's fine though. If they adore him but team is hot garbage on the ice, remove him from the bench and bring him into the FSG FO if he's THAT well liked. It's just getting too hard to look at the product on the ice and not come to the conclusion that coaching is a BIG part of it.
White knighting for Hextall and Granlund. Of all the people to hitch your wagon to. Beyond bizarre.
And yeah, fixing the mistakes of the previous GM is expensive. We'd probably be in a better spot if we had Matheson-Marino as our 2nd pairing and Dickenson in the pipeline. But when you go out of your way to get older, slower, with an anemic roster, yeah, it costs you quite a bit to rectify that.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Had we known Sullivan would suck this hard in 2024, we should have fired him after 2017, right? We should have fired Byslma after 2010, but most certainly after 2012 and absolutely after 2014. When we did, I think most of us felt it was a couple years too late.
The Rangers series should have been the end. After that loss, after being up 3-1, there was more than enough "evidence" to support firing him—numerous failures that take away the "they never gave him a chance!" excuse.
For this season to be salvageable, it's a 2016 job all over again. Not only do you need a new coach, but Dubas will have to make a couple of shrewd trades to change the dynamics of the team a bit. What we are seeing is not a case of "this is a capable roster being held back by Sullivan". Fact is, the core is old and we likely are who we are. The goal isn't the cup, the goal is merely the playoffs.
Best solution - bottom 5 this year. Pick Misa. bottom 5 next year, pick McKenna. Usher in a new era with McGroarty-McKenna-Misa, Pickering-Brunicke, Blomqvist/Murashov. Then it's your mission to part out existing roster players for as much value as possible (Karlsson, Rust, Rakell, Eller, etc.).
