Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

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How soon before Letang is back on PP1:


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So you are comparing a team with stars still doing what they do compared to a change of scenery and a far worse team as proof it was Kessel. To top it off, shorten seasons.

To even compare like to like is lunacy.


By GF% and GF productivity Phil Kessel was one of the worst players on Arizona when he got there.
This also jived with the commentary of their fans who were immediately sick of him.

Dude was a complete hindrance in the last year here outside of the powerplay. I'm glad he healthy-scratched his way to a Cup. But I'm more glad that Malkin turned in one of his best seasons at 33 once he was unshackled.
 
I find the "analytics mean nothing" brigade just as annoying as the "analytics mean everything" brigade. The reality is that "advanced stats" are just some measurement of shot differentials, that's it. CF is just a shot attempt and CF% just shows what percentage of shot attempts your team is taking. FF is just unblocked shot attempts and FF% just shows what percentage of unblocked shot attempts your team is taking. xGF is just shot attempts multiplied by a location factor that converts that shot attempt into an "expected goals".

The biggest issue with analytics is that people don't know how to use them. I think the largest failure of these stats was calling them "advanced stats", because they are not "advanced stats" whatsoever. They're +/- for shots effectively.
It's a spectrum. On the one side, adv stats or "the number". On the other side, the "eye test". Both have to agree and be in balance. If you get too far off to one side, you're missing something. All about balance.
I feel like Monahan will be a Penguin tbh.
Why? He's doing well and the caps are a bitch.

On to another subject, I've seen on FB and HockeyBuzz some rumblings between us and Vancouver. Eklund says multi person deal and that we love Garland. FB says, reading between the lines, that Rakell is up for trade. Interesting thing, main board says Van may opt to trade Beauvillier instead. If we swapped Rakell and Beauvillier it gives us a midge of cap space. A smidge of cap space that could be use with POJ as a trade piece to upgrade the 3LW.

Two proposals:
Beauvillier+Hoglander
for
Rakell+POJ

Jake-Sid-Rust
Smith-Geno-Beauvillier
Hoglander-Eller-Zohorna
Nieto-Accari-Hino/DOC

Beauvillier
for
Rakell

POJ+DOC+SJS 2023 3rd
for
Dube after they trade Zadorov and/or Tanev

Jake-Sid-Rust
Smith-Geno-Beauvillier
Dube-Eller-Zohorna
Nieto-Accari-Hino
 

By GF% and GF productivity Phil Kessel was one of the worst players on Arizona when he got there.
This also jived with the commentary of their fans who were immediately sick of him.

Dude was a complete hindrance in the last year here outside of the powerplay. I'm glad he healthy-scratched his way to a Cup. But I'm more glad that Malkin turned in one of his best seasons at 33 once he was unshackled.

You're still proving my point. Nothing has changed from what I said. Malkin played a whopping 55 games. The following season 33 games... Players tend to have increasing seasons in lesser games played in the softer not quite in the full grasp of teams complete form.

What happen to just the season before where Malkin had his best year in years? Like since 2011/12 playing with Kessel. I guess that was all Geno?

Before Kessel, Geno was barely a PPG for a few years. Barely. Just like he is now for the last few. I guess that's all Kessel's fault too.

Geno is always gonna be the man, but you don't need to try that hard. Geno is just as capable of not being the man all on his own accord.
 
You're still proving my point. Nothing has changed from what I said. Malkin played a whopping 55 games. The following season 33 games... Players tend to have increasing seasons in lesser games played in the softer not quite in the full grasp of teams complete form.

What happen to just the season before where Malkin had his best year in years? Like since 2011/12 playing with Kessel. I guess that was all Geno?

Before Kessel, Geno was barely a PPG for a few years. Barely. Just like he is now for the last few. I guess that's all Kessel's fault too.

Geno is always gonna be the man, but you don't need to try that hard. Geno is just as capable of not being the man all on his own accord.
Kessel helped Geno, until he really hindered him badly. In 2018-2019, Kessel was terribad and carried that form to other teams. This is why he is still a Free Agent today. He's been a bad hockey player for half decade at this point.

Malkin was great in 2013 and '13-'15. One of the best players during the Johnston mistake.

I'm happy Kessel made his way to the Penguins. We probably don't win 2 Cups without him. But he needed to go sooner, and the '18-'19 season is a blight on Malkin's resume unfortunately.
 
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It's a spectrum. On the one side, adv stats or "the number". On the other side, the "eye test". Both have to agree and be in balance. If you get too far off to one side, you're missing something. All about balance.

Why? He's doing well and the caps are a bitch.

On to another subject, I've seen on FB and HockeyBuzz some rumblings between us and Vancouver. Eklund says multi person deal and that we love Garland. FB says, reading between the lines, that Rakell is up for trade. Interesting thing, main board says Van may opt to trade Beauvillier instead. If we swapped Rakell and Beauvillier it gives us a midge of cap space. A smidge of cap space that could be use with POJ as a trade piece to upgrade the 3LW.

Two proposals:
Beauvillier+Hoglander
for
Rakell+POJ

Jake-Sid-Rust
Smith-Geno-Beauvillier
Hoglander-Eller-Zohorna
Nieto-Accari-Hino/DOC

Beauvillier
for
Rakell

POJ+DOC+SJS 2023 3rd
for
Dube after they trade Zadorov and/or Tanev

Jake-Sid-Rust
Smith-Geno-Beauvillier
Dube-Eller-Zohorna
Nieto-Accari-Hino

The Caps?
 
It's a spectrum. On the one side, adv stats or "the number". On the other side, the "eye test". Both have to agree and be in balance. If you get too far off to one side, you're missing something. All about balance.

I think this is close, but I think the key is this: most of the time, analytics (I refuse to call them "advanced stats") and the eye test agree. It's when they don't agree that things get interesting. The problem, as I see it, is that far too many people want to just assume that either analytics or the eye test are always correct in those circumstances, and I don't think that's true. What is true is that you need to take a closer look to figure out why they disagree.

Analytics had a big win early on with Corsi and Fenwick, because they determined that those correlated to winning more than just about any of the "standard" stats. They also determined that hits were inversely correlated to winning (as in, more hits tended to mean more losses). The people who did those early analytics looked into why, and realized that those stats ended up being indicators of puck possession. Teams that possessed the puck tended to attempt more shots, and teams that were hitting tended to not have the puck. And teams that possessed the puck more generally ended up winning more.

The problem is that people then took "CF% leads to winning" which was not really the right answer. The real answer was that good teams ended up possessing the puck, and thus, good teams tended to have better CF% and FF%. Basically, a whole lot of people decided that correlation was causation, and mistook what it was actually telling us - which was basically that sometimes good teams would have a spell of bad luck, lose early games, and then eventually the fact that they were good would mean that when their luck improved, they would start racking up the wins.

I feel that all the "player cards" and expected goals, and what-not are often missing the point. If you've got an "expected goals" model that almost always expects more goals than are scored, then your model isn't really doing a good job of evaluating when goals should be expected, after all.

If you've got "player cards" that can end up saying something completely different about a player when they move from one team to another, then maybe your player cards are picking up way too many team effects, rather than individual player characteristics.

Sometimes analytics can reveal that a player is better than they look by the eye test, and it's because we're not looking for the right thing. But sometimes, it means that the analytics are what are not looking at the right thing, instead. So you have to actually do some work to figure out which case it is, when they disagree.

(Someday, I'll use Tyler Kennedy as an interesting case study on this, because I think there are things that both the analytics and eye test backers can learn from it! :laugh: )
 
Kessel helped Geno, until he really hindered him badly. In 2018-2019, Kessel was terribad and carried that form to other teams. This is why he is still a Free Agent today. He's been a bad hockey player for half decade at this point.

Malkin was great in 2013 and '13-'15. One of the best players during the Johnston mistake.

I'm happy Kessel made his way to the Penguins. We probably don't win 2 Cups without him. But he needed to go sooner, and the '18-'19 season is a blight on Malkin's resume unfortunately.
Geno is just unable to be culpable for his own play. Got it... Geno's 98 probably doesn't happen if he was gone sooner.
 
Wonder if MSN Messenger is still a thing.
1699876199830.png

Based MSN.
Was always trying to improve my "personal message".
joli here chose not to have one. Kinda weak tbh.
 
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Speaking of Graves, I've tried to focus on him a bit more in recent games and I do honestly feel like Penguins fans are going overboard with the criticism of him. My big complaint with him is that I wish he was more physical because he's huge, but otherwise he's been fairly quiet and decent/solid.

Don't care about Graves' physicality. What I dislike about him is that he seems to be a real idiot with his passing/decision making.
 
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