Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[AuroraBorealis]

Fundamentally most NHL goals have a healthy element of luck. In no other major sport is that the case. The skill is accumulating a volume of chances such that you get lucky.

Football has stoppages because it's a series of individual battles where teams coordinate different tactics. But each battle/play can be discussed individually. A board battle on the half wall so a team can clear the zone and change its forwards after 35 seconds in their shift isn't remotely interesting. It just looks like a jumble of players whacking at the puck.

NHL needs more 4-on-4.

Understanding why football has stoppages doesn't change the fact that it's dull as f***, at least for me. I can't get into a rhythm when watching it. It's just bursts of like 5 seconds before it's dead again.

Hockey provides 60 minutes of play in 145 minute broadcasts on average.
Football provides 60 minutes of play in 192 minute broadcasts on average, and merely 11 minutes of that is when the ball is actually in play (per google).
So you watch over 3 hours to see 11 minutes of real play, then wait a week for the next game. Then they give you an 8 month off-season after your team's 16 games.

That's just terminally boring for me. But I'm not gonna mock anyone who enjoys it, even if I don't understand their preference.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Understanding why football has stoppages doesn't change the fact that it's dull as f***, at least for me. I can't get into a rhythm when watching it. It's just bursts of like 5 seconds before it's dead again.

Hockey provides 60 minutes of play in 145 minute broadcasts on average.
Football provides 60 minutes of play in 192 minute broadcasts on average, and merely 11 minutes of that is when the ball is actually in play (per google).
So you watch over 3 hours to see 11 minutes of real play, then wait a week for the next game. Then they give you an 8 month off-season after your team's 16 games.

That's just terminally boring for me. But I'm not gonna mock anyone who enjoys it, even if I don't understand their preference.

But think about how much of hockey action isn't actually action.

I mean elsewhere in this thread you are suggesting our bottom 6 forwards just be a bunch of try-hards and stalemate the opponent. I actually agree with you! That is the right thing for the Pens. But for the entertainment value of the sport, it is atrocious.

The bad players are too fast and too good. This has been the problem for the last...I don't know, since 2-3 years after the '04-'05 lockout. The league needs to take a look in the mirror and honestly assess its competitive equilibrium. Like what baseball did in the last couple of years.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But think about how much of hockey action isn't actually action.

Yes, that's true, but that's still exponentially more action than football. It makes it an easy choice for me.

I mean elsewhere in this thread you are suggesting our bottom 6 forwards just be a bunch of try-hards and stalemate the opponent.

What I said is the bottom-six haven't been that atrocious yet, by virtue of them barely conceding. For example Carter hasn't been scored on yet at ES, which is as good as we can hope for at his age and level of regression. He even made some clutch defensive plays.
Most fans value offense way more than defense, and just solely go off that when analyzing players. That makes sense, since it's supposed to be an entertainment product, and not something that should be analyzed to death.

I still feel we need more offense in the bottom-six, because later injuries will come and guys will need to be able to move up and produce. Plus our stars will have cold streaks and sleepy nights, where goals aren't gonna come unless there's support from unlikely sources.
Apart from Zohorna, I would like 2 more scoring Forwards down there. 3-3 split ideally, with half pure shutdown guys and half dudes who can chip in like 20-30 points a year (if they played all year).

Right now our entire top-six, EK and Letang are producing really well, apart from Rakell. That standard won't last. There'll either be injuries or they'll cool off. They'll need reinforcements, especially against the playoff caliber teams.
So far our bottom-six are -1, despite good defense. I would have liked to see 2 goals from them by now, so they're a net positive. Then we'd be 3-1-0, instead of 2-2-0.

 

[ChaosAgent]

What I said is the bottom-six haven't been that atrocious yet, by virtue of them barely conceding. For example Carter hasn't been scored on yet at ES, which is as good as we can hope for at his age and level of regression. He even made some clutch defensive plays.
Most fans value offense way more than defense, and just solely go off that when analyzing players. That makes sense, since it's supposed to be an entertainment product, and not something that should be analyzed to death.

I still feel we need more offense in the bottom-six, because later injuries will come and guys will need to be able to move up and produce. Plus our stars will have cold streaks and sleepy nights, where goals aren't gonna come unless there's support from unlikely sources.
Apart from Zohorna, I would like 2 more scoring Forwards down there. 3-3 split ideally, with half pure shutdown guys and half dudes who can chip in like 20-30 points a year (if they played all year).

Right now our entire top-six, EK and Letang are producing really well, apart from Rakell. That standard won't last. There'll either be injuries or they'll cool off. They'll need reinforcements, especially against the playoff caliber teams.
So far our bottom-six are -1, despite good defense. I would have liked to see 2 goals from them by now, so they're a net positive. Then we'd be 3-1-0, instead of 2-2-0.

I agree with your take. This is the NHL we have and the team we have. The way we have it set up is best to win games.

I think the entertainment value of 40-50% of a roster getting by, and barely even getting outplayed, on try-harding and skating ability alone is nil. The NHL, if it were a progressive league, would address the issues where the best way to win hockey games is not entertaining.

 

[Andy99]

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I agree with your take. This is the NHL we have and the team we have. The way we have it set up is best to win games.

The best way have it set up is like the 2020-21 roster, when we won the division.
It had multiple guys who can score in the bottom-six. It was enough to allow a few guys in the top-six to not have particularly good even-strength seasons, and win the division anyway. Obviously Jarry was excellent too.
The problem is that requires really good GM'ing, where you have a few guys poised to outplay their contracts. It requires some good fortune sometimes.

The way we're built right now is sorta ok when we're healthy, but I think there'll be serious issues when we're not.

I think the entertainment value of 40-50% of a roster getting by, and barely even getting outplayed, on try-harding and skating ability alone is nil. The NHL, if it were a progressive league, would address the issues where the best way to win hockey games is not entertaining.

It's like this in most team sports though. Fine, boring detail work wins games. That's why the Isles made the playoffs and we didn't.
When I watch their games they just care more about playing more polished. Winning little battles on the ice means more to them.

 

[McGroarty2]

Theoretically,
O'Connor Eller Acciari
should be a good forechecking line, able to create turnovers and chances.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Theoretically,
O'Connor Eller Acciari
should be a good forechecking line, able to create turnovers and chances.

I think what's holding them back right now from chance generation is puck management on zone entries. Those dump-ins are going to bad/unreachable areas, and allowing easy exits for the opposition.
Just a little more care with possession and it will look better.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's like this in most team sports though. Fine, boring detail work wins games. That's why the Isles made the playoffs and we didn't.
When I watch their games they just care more about playing more polished. Winning little battles on the ice means more to them.

I both agree with your takes on how the Penguins can win more games, while thinking this is emblematic of why hockey at the NHL level is a bad product.

 

[Turin]

Seeing guys like Garland and Pinto floating around potentially available while the team is saddled with Jeff Carter and his NMC pisses me off. Garland retained for cheap is a no brainer slam dunk move.

 

[Bishop7979]

Can we get a fire Sullivan chant at the next Steelers game? I mean it’s only fair since pens fans helped out trying to get rid of Canada.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Can we get a fire Sullivan chant at the next Steelers game? I mean it’s only fair since pens fans helped out trying to get rid of Canada.

Sullivan is still widely popular in this town and nationally.
Yes, it sucks, but the idea that the org is going to wake up and get sick of Sullivan is a fantasy. They may fire him as a last ditch effort type of thing, but they'll do it with tears in their eyes. Tears of Dunkin Christmas Lattes.

 

[Bishop7979]

Seeing guys like Garland and Pinto floating around potentially available while the team is saddled with Jeff Carter and his NMC pisses me off. Garland retained for cheap is a no brainer slam dunk move.

At this point it’s like pull carter a side and tell him he’s not playing again this season no matter what, tell him he can go home and sit or agree to a contract termination ala John leclair and offer him an overpaid scouting gig to make up for lost income.

Sullivan is still widely popular in this town and nationally.
Yes, it sucks, but the idea that the org is going to wake up and get sick of Sullivan is a fantasy. They may fire him as a last ditch effort type of thing, but they'll do it with tears in their eyes. Tears of Dunkin Christmas Lattes.

F-ing Ben affleck will read the announce with a pumpkin spiced glazed donut in his hand while wiping away the tears.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Can we get a fire Sullivan chant at the next Steelers game? I mean it’s only fair since pens fans helped out trying to get rid of Canada.

There was another pens fan tonight in st louis waving a Fire Matt Canada sign lol ugh

 

[AjaxTelamon]

It's amazing we somehow have a worse bottom six than the abomination we had last year.

Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't build a "Sullivan" type bottom six with a bunch of 12th forwards who are "dependable" defensively but dogshit offensively.

As long as Sullivan is here, it doesn't matter who plays in the bottom six, they won't score. This roster was designed exactly how Sullivan wanted. It's the opposite of the roll 4 lines approach. Which is really what we need more of with aging stars.

Hopefully there is some accountability if it fails again, ideally before the season is over. I have no idea why he doesn't try some new combinations like Acciari with Jake and Sid, Smith and Rust between Zohorna, O'Connor with Geno and Rakell, just try some new stuff. We've been losing in the post season (or not making it) with Jake/Sid/Rust as our top line since the frigging Montreal series debacle. This designing lines for all offense or all defense is right out of 25 years ago.

 

[Andy99]

As long as Sullivan is here, it doesn't matter who plays in the bottom six, they won't score. This roster was designed exactly how Sullivan wanted. It's the opposite of the roll 4 lines approach. Which is really what we need more of with aging stars.

Hopefully there is some accountability if it fails again, ideally before the season is over. I have no idea why he doesn't try some new combinations like Acciari with Jake and Sid, Smith and Rust between Zohorna, O'Connor with Geno and Rakell, just try some new stuff. We've been losing in the post season (or not making it) with Jake/Sid/Rust as our top line since the frigging Montreal series debacle. This designing lines for all offense or all defense is right out of 25 years ago.

To be fair, he’s designing lines for the way Sid (and less so Geno) want to play at their ages…they’re not interested in playing a lot of defense or getting heavier D zone starts….but the buck stops with the coach…this is where being chummy is a detriment…they need balanced defensive lines, a commitment to defending first by everyone and offensive skill in all 4 lines…if they played a tight checking game or much tighter in the NZ, they could be the team getting the TOs and 3 on 2 rushes more often, not just against bottom feeders

 

[Captain Hook]

There was another pens fan tonight in st louis waving a Fire Matt Canada sign lol ugh

Yeah, it's crazy how big the Canada thing is. I agree with firing him but haven't seen anything like all these chants in random places to fire someone before.

 

[Gurglesons]

So..

Since we probably win one or the two next games to convince our staff they are doing something right I'm thinking we will only see a trade to help invigorate the Penguins.

Some targets from underachieving teams..

Florida
Lorentz
Lomberg

Edmonton
Foegle

Winnipeg
DeMelo
Appleton

 

[The Old Master]

As long as Sullivan is here, it doesn't matter who plays in the bottom six, they won't score.

sully's biggest strength is getting the most out of his team without the stars. so the bottom two lines should be in great hands. then we see the bottom six play
it just baffles me.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

I thought Shea other than getting dummied by Kap looked fine, but he can be waived and is probably battling Ludvig for 4LD so no worries about losing him. Waive Nieto.

Call up White and Poulin. Sit Carts.

GCRak
SmithGenoRust
ZEllerDOC
PoulinWhiteAcciari.

Top2 pairs

Give Ludvig a chance. Give Ludvig and POJ a chance on their offside.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I wouldn't mind seeing what Poulin could do with a call up, but they can't play him in a 4th line grunt role. What's the point?

Jake-Sid-Rakell
Poulin-Geno-Smith
Zoho-Eller-Rust
Hino-Acciari-DOC

/shrug

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

I wouldn't mind seeing what Poulin could do with a call up, but they can't play him in a 4th line grunt role. What's the point?

Jake-Sid-Rakell
Poulin-Geno-Smith
Zoho-Eller-Rust
Hino-Acciari-DOC

/shrug

Poulin would get less leash than Sprong did imo

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Poulin would get less leash than Sprong did imo

Definitely. Especially with the Pens hovering around .500 or below in a division as tight as the Metro.

Good thing Sully didn't give the entire pre-season over to seeing whether there might be anything with the WBS dorks. Which, to be totally fair, ain't exactly perfect measuring stick. DOC looked great, but he's just as dogshit as he's always been (and always will be imo) against NHL competition. But still, really dumb not to give guys like Poulin, Puustinen, etc. long leash in pre-season.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Definitely. Especially with the Pens hovering around .500 or below in a division as tight as the Metro.

Good thing Sully didn't give the entire pre-season over to seeing whether there might be anything with the WBS dorks. Which, to be totally fair, ain't exactly perfect measuring stick. DOC looked great, but he's just as dogshit as he's always been (and always will be imo) against NHL competition. But still, really dumb not to give guys like Poulin, Puustinen, etc. long leash in pre-season.

Agreed. Been scratching my head on how Harkins earned that spot he had, over Puus, Poulin, or any younger player in WBS.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Agreed. Been scratching my head on how Harkins earned that spot he had, over Puus, Poulin, or any younger player in WBS.

Preseason and camp definitely continued to maintain it's high standards of being baffling, pointless and altogether meaningless this year.