Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[Empoleon8771]

I think the issue regarding replacing Ruhwedel right now is that POJ has also been awful and you don't want to throw a young guy into a sink or swim situation with a bad D partner. Like I'm absolutely not playing Ty Smith with POJ with how bad POJ looks, regardless of how bad Ruhwedel also looks.

I'd probably replace Ruhwedel with Shea and hope Shea can show some sort of stability from the role. If he can show that and POJ continues to be bad, then I'd look at guys like Ludvig and Smith to play over POJ.

 

[Headshot77]

I think the issue regarding replacing Ruhwedel right now is that POJ has also been awful and you don't want to throw a young guy into a sink or swim situation with a bad D partner. Like I'm absolutely not playing Ty Smith with POJ with how bad POJ looks, regardless of how bad Ruhwedel also looks.

I'd probably replace Ruhwedel with Shea and hope Shea can show some sort of stability from the role. If he can show that and POJ continues to be bad, then I'd look at guys like Ludvig and Smith to play over POJ.

Maybe you sit them both and run a Shea-Ludvig pairing. Two guys who will have the fire to try and stick in the lineup.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That's a Dubas decision.

I actually think Sullivan would prefer to have a 13th forward. But for whatever reason Dubas opted to clear space to make a waiver claim on an 8th defenseman.

Let's be real with this - Ludvig and Shea are intriguing for sure. More than anything Ruhwedel brings or whatever Sullivan moistens his briefs to believing he does. Yet through 3 Gms Ruhwedel is a regular. Seems like someone vouches for him quite hard there mate.

Waive Ludvig to wbs, play Shea, trade Ruhwedel to Vancouver since they like our junk. Then call up Zohorna, scratch Carter and then fire Sullivan and we're golden, pony boy.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Time to throw Zohorna on defense. Give him the Burns career trajectory.

I hear Zohorna's some kinda important, missing piece.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's what happens when your GM hemorrhages assets and doesn't draft/develop well with the assets he doesn't hemorrhage.

It’s also what happens when no young players get a chance except “conscientious” bums like Harkins.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s also what happens when no young players get a chance except “conscientious” bums like Harkins.

Yes, all of those young players not given a chance by Sullivan that have been wildly successful elsewhere like Jordy Bellerive and Ethan Prow!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Are Shea, Ludvig, Rathbone, Smith THAT much worse than Rudwedel that we can't risk waiving him to get someone new in place?

Legit question. Maybe I'm missing something here...

Friedman was even better than Ruhwedel. The issue is coaching not the players. Sully has to actually coach some of the others to get the best out of them and they have some juice worth the squeeze. But Ruhwedel is reliable in his absolute putrid state of bland as f***. He often goes unscathed for criticism while his partners that are actually good, somehow get dumped on.

To keep a journeyman 7th as a regular for this long is a coach's choice and it's hilariously dumb to keep seeing him dress each night.

It’s also what happens when no young players get a chance except “conscientious” bums like Harkins.

Exactly.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think it's true that today's Sullivan doesn't really have the same faith or patience in younger guys that he showed when he hit the scene in Pittsburgh. I think it's also true that it was probably much easier to show faith and have patience with guys like Jake and Rust as opposed to Nylander and Zohorna.

If anything, the treatment of DOC is odd. Dude's a complete ghost in like 90% of the games he's ever played at this level but for some reason he was kept around and is still getting 3rd line minutes. Maybe he has to play center? I don't know. Doesn't strike me as a 4C in any respect though, and unless Eller gets hurt, I doubt DOC gets the nod at 3C--nor does he deserve it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, all of those young players not given a chance by Sullivan that have been wildly successful elsewhere like Jordy Bellerive and Ethan Prow!

I hated Sprong and Lafferty here but they seem to be doing alright in multiple stops across the NHL.

Let’s see what Friedman does in Vancouver.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I hated Sprong and Lafferty here but they seem to be doing alright in multiple stops across the NHL.

The fact that the two examples you can come up with are a scoring line winger that the Penguins turned into Pettersson and a 4th liner just proves my point about how the Penguins haven't had shit in terms of young players for years.

I also don't understand why Sprong and Lafferty are examples of young players "not getting a chance" with Sullivan but guys like Marino, Pettersson, ZAR and Simon don't count as young players getting a chance. Hell, you've complained about Simon and ZAR getting top-6 looks with Crosby and Malkin in the past yet that somehow doesn't count for Sullivan giving young players a chance?

 

[Gurglesons]

The fact that the two examples you can come up with are a scoring line winger that the Penguins turned into Pettersson and a 4th liner just proves my point about how the Penguins haven't had shit in terms of young players for years.

I also don't understand why Sprong and Lafferty are examples of young players "not getting a chance" with Sullivan but guys like Marino, Pettersson, ZAR and Simon don't count as young players getting a chance.

I don’t understand why it’s so shocking to say Sullivan doesn’t play young players when he doesn’t so I guess we can both been confused.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t understand why it’s so shocking to say Sullivan doesn’t play young players when he doesn’t so I guess we can both been confused.

Sullivan has clearly shown to be willing to play young players when he has young players worth a damn to play. Just because you're mad he's not playing Ethan Prow in a top-4 role doesn't mean he hates young players.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It'd be cool if this team could dangle more valuable pieces like Rust or Rakell, or if Carter didn't have an ironclad contract that prevents the team from doing anything with him.

I'm not sure what moving a guy like POJ is gonna do, and I think he's leaps and bounds more attractive an asset than somebody like DOC, or worse.

The effect Sullivan, JR, and Hextall had on this team since the back to backs has been pretty devastating and deflating.

 

[Andy99]

It'd be cool if this team could dangle more valuable pieces like Rust or Rakell, or if Carter didn't have an ironclad contract that prevents the team from doing anything with him.

I'm not sure what moving a guy like POJ is gonna do, and I think he's leaps and bounds more attractive an asset than somebody like DOC, or worse.

The effect Sullivan, JR, and Hextall had on this team since the back to backs has been pretty devastating and deflating.

Boy has Rakell been pretty bad to start the season…it’s like he and Rust decided to take alternate years off…I wouldn’t be opposed to trading him if we got some skilled young legs back…

 

[Gurglesons]

Sullivan has clearly shown to be willing to play young players when he has young players worth a damn to play. Just because you're mad he's not playing Ethan Prow in a top-4 role doesn't mean he hates young players.

Didn’t realize Ethan Prow was still on our team. But, I actually watch AHL games so maybe I just didn’t see him?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's gonna kick ass in like 4 years when this place can bitch about Sully's treatment of young players that actually stand to make a difference as opposed to guys like DOC, Zohorna, Nylander, and Ty Smith.

Of course the team will be dogshit, but all that'll really change is going from hovering around as a WC team with zero hope to contend for a Cup to being a team drafting in the top-3 with zero hope to contend for a Cup.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's gonna kick ass in like 4 years when this place can bitch about Sully's treatment of young players that actually stand to make a difference as opposed to guys like DOC, Zohorna, Nylander, and Ty Smith.

Of course the team will be dogshit, but all that'll really change is going from hovering around as a WC team with zero hope to contend for a Cup to being a team drafting in the top-3 with zero hope to contend for a Cup.

Sullivan gets fired this season.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sullivan gets fired this season.

Fingers crossed, baybeeeee.

I'd be downright shocked if he didn't survive this season, and would be pretty surprised if he was fired earlier than next summer (2025), but at that point, does the team even give a shit? Maybe, if Dubas thinks Sullivan can't handle the rebuilding/prospect/development chapter of post-Sid hockey, but we'll see.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fingers crossed, baybeeeee.

I'd be downright shocked if he didn't survive this season, and would be pretty surprised if he was fired earlier than next summer (2025), but at that point, does the team even give a shit? Maybe, if Dubas thinks Sullivan can't handle the rebuilding/prospect/development chapter of post-Sid hockey, but we'll see.

I think the issue is if they flame out what else do you do?

Dubas can’t blame the goaltending. He gave Jarry the contract.

He won’t blame the vets. He’s double downed on them.

He gave Sullivan what Sullivan wanted and made the big trade.

Only one head to fall there especially with the trade protection that is so prevalent.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think the issue is if they flame out what else do you do?

Dubas can’t blame the goaltending. He gave Jarry the contract.

He won’t blame the vets. He’s double downed on them.

He gave Sullivan what Sullivan wanted and made the big trade.

Only one head to fall there especially with the trade protection that is so prevalent.

I think everything is on the table if the Pens fall on their faces.

However, I truly don't think firing Sullivan would be Dubas' first reaction unless he feels Sullivan is being especially stubborn regarding adjustments and/or he feels Sullivan has lost the room.

I think Dubas would look at the following potential moves. This is all assuming he re-signs Guentzel, which I think is an inevitability:

1. Trades Rust and potentially more for a physical, bigger winger - a Bunting/Bertuzzi type.
2. Trades Pettersson for a pure stay-at-home, top four defenseman with a bit of an edge.
3. Uses any increased cap space to get a legit two-way 3C and bump Eller to 4C.
4. Add additional speed/grit to the bottom six wings.
5. Fire or allow Reirden and Vellucci to walk, bring in potential Sullivan replacements as assistants. I think this is a legitimate next step, as I get the impression Dubas likes having options available when he makes a move rather than having to see who might be available midseason.

I think if Dubas had stayed in Toronto, he was going to explore moving one of the bigger pieces there rather than fire Sheldon Keefe. I think falling short in Pittsburgh would lead to a similar consequence here next offseason. But I do think Sullivan would only get a one year reprieve - if the Pens were to stumble again midway through 2024-25, Sullivan would be gone.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think everything is on the table if the Pens fall on their faces.

However, I truly don't think firing Sullivan would be Dubas' first reaction unless he feels Sullivan is being especially stubborn regarding adjustments and/or he feels Sullivan has lost the room.

I think Dubas would look at the following potential moves. This is all assuming he re-signs Guentzel, which I think is an inevitability:

1. Trades Rust and potentially more for a physical, bigger winger - a Bunting/Bertuzzi type.
2. Trades Pettersson for a pure stay-at-home, top four defenseman with a bit of an edge.
3. Uses any increased cap space to get a legit two-way 3C and bump Eller to 4C.
4. Add additional speed/grit to the bottom six wings.
5. Fire or allow Reirden and Vellucci to walk, bring in potential Sullivan replacements as assistants. I think this is a legitimate next step, as I get the impression Dubas likes having options available when he makes a move rather than having to see who might be available midseason.

I think if Dubas had stayed in Toronto, he was going to explore moving one of the bigger pieces there rather than fire Sheldon Keefe. I think falling short in Pittsburgh would lead to a similar consequence here next offseason. But I do think Sullivan would only get a one year reprieve - if the Pens were to stumble again midway through 2024-25, Sullivan would be gone.

This makes me sick.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

This makes me sick.

I think there is a belief among some NHL folks that the Penguins are damned if they do and damned if they don't because of the age of the core, and thus Sullivan shouldn't be faulted if they come up short.

I'm not sure if Dubas subscribes to that belief, but I do think he's pretty pragmatic while still believing the franchise should try whatever it can to win in the waning years of the core.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think there is a belief among some NHL folks that the Penguins are damned if they do and damned if they don't because of the age of the core, and thus Sullivan shouldn't be faulted if they come up short.

I'm not sure if Dubas subscribes to that belief, but I do think he's pretty pragmatic while still believing the franchise should try whatever it can to win in the waning years of the core.

It is still wild that a coach who essentially done nothing for a “win now” team for 6 seasons would get another shot.

 

[canadianguy77]

I don’t see any hunger out of the bottom 6 outside from the odd bursts of speed from DOC and Hanrahan or whatever his name is. But there is zero hitting, zero swagger, and zero chemistry between the whole lot of them. Reminds me of the Nick Spaling days. I have no idea of where they go from here if he wont rearrange the lines or send anyone down though. I guess we’ll just live and die with the scoring lines and EK then until someone gets him to change his ways. It took a long time last season.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It is still wild that a coach who essentially done nothing for a “win now” team for 6 seasons would get another shot.

Back to back cups buys a long leash, especially when you maintain the respect of the core.

The coaches who have won multiple cups in the cap era are Sullivan, Jon Cooper, Joel Quenneville and Darryl Sutter.

Sutter outright missed the playoffs in two of the three years after winning his second cup with LA. Plus, his abrasive style has a shorter shelf life.

Quenneville lasted three seasons plus a couple months of a fourth after Chicago's last cup. He was largely fired as a scapegoat for Stan Bowman's mismanagement after the last cup. Plus, given all we know now about Chicago, the place was pretty dysfunctional around that time.

Cooper has the best job security in the league.

Bruce Cassidy made it twice and won once. He was fired in Boston because he lost the core. If David Krejci would rather leave the NHL than play for you, that's a problem.

Peter Laviolette won once and lost twice, but his Capitals tenure was roundly criticized by Kuzy and others.

So, there's a theme with those who have been fired after winning cups -- they lost the core of their respective teams.

I think it also helps Sullivan that there are plausible excuses for many of the Pens' end results of late. They clearly ran out of gas in 2018 vs the Caps. I think the sweep vs the Isles in 2019 should be a knock against Sullivan. I think the bubble in 2020 is viewed as a crapshoot (see Montreal's run). You have Jarry imploding with no legit back-up in 2021 vs the Isles and Dominique in 2022 vs the Rangers.

I blame last year on Hextall, but for arguments sake we can blame Sullivan.

That's really only two years that he should shoulder most of the blame - 2019 and 2023.

I cannot blame him for the goalie fiascos in 2021 and 2022. Dustin Tokarski wasn't going to do anything in 2021, and Louis Domingue realistically wasn't much of a better option in 2022. I know we saw Adin Hill elevate Vegas last year, but Hill is better than Domingue and Tokarski, and Vegas was better equipped to insulate him by being able to roll four lines and having a deeper defense group.

So, in context, I don't think Sullivan's longevity is all that wild.