Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Malkinstheman]

People always assume smart player equals smart GM or coach (or person) they’re almost always not.

The thing is Yzerman seemed like a genius in Tampa. I guess it was just the people around him because his philosophy in Detroit has been the complete opposite

 

[SEALBound]

People are aware there’s a middle ground between blowing the team up entirely and doing nothing, right?

I’m discouraged at the Dubas quotes because it seems like he’s going to do nothing, which is absolutely not what I wanted him to do this offseason. It’s not about him going a full blown tear down right now, it’s that he seems content just sitting on his hands and doing nothing.

For me, it’s not about the path Dubas says he wants to take. It’s that I really get the impression that he’s going to be passive about it, which is absolutely not the correct path for him to be taking.

Which quotes are you referring to? When I reference what he said, I'm talking about the presser he did yesterday at the draft. I think he outlined the path pretty well:

1. Compete and contend now is the goal.
2. Build the team by infusing youth. Now, I'm not sure this matters or it's even worth discussing but I didn't hear "we only want to build the prospect pool". While I think that is certainly important to Dubas, he did say several times "urgency in getting young, hungry players on this team." So I didn't get the sense that he means "we want to get rid of contracts to collect draft picks". He even mentioned something about this after the Jake trade - having young prospects that can be used in conversations to obtain other young players.
3. They are not filling holes with old guys from FA. They won't be giving out long term deals. At most, it might be a top 6 wing that's willing to sign for 1-2 years. That might very well take us out of contention for the top FA talent.
4. They are open to trades but not ones where you get low value or have to pay to move guys. Meaning they won't be dumping Smith for a 5th or Jarry for future considerations. They will only move guys in trades that make sense for the team.
5. This last part was an interesting under-the-radar, between-the-lines tidbit - but he also said that while Sully and Sid are focused each day winning each game and in a sense, this year, he's keeping a more global mindset and looking to the future a bit more. This could indicate that his intention is to bring in some young players over the next 1-2 years and your real "last hoorah" is more like in 2-3 years before the wheels completely fall off. So you're more in that Boston 2023 mode with Bergy. That would align with what the said about LA and NYR and their mini slumps to procure higher end youth.

So I don't get the sense that there is "no plan". I think the plan, itself, is actually quite clear. Now if someone wants to discuss the path and exactly which players he's targeting, how current youth plays a role, who he wants to move out and why, that would be fair because honestly, I don't know that part outside of him potentially wanting to trade Jarry and Smith.

How is going to acquire that youth though? Because he also said “I’m not moving guys just to move them.” Well moving a guy like Smith out is how you create room to infuse youth… but he’s not just willing to dump him… so how is he creating any space for youth exactly? What is he waiting on?


Isn’t this exactly what Pixies was saying and you were against like a day ago lol?

That's the million dollar question, now ain't it

If you look at the roster, we have some youth. This team can easily take on: Poulin, Pono, Puljujarvi, Puustinen, JSI, and possibly guys like Koivunen and Yager. There's more than enough capable young guys to fill out the roster. Question is, are they impactful enough to turn the tide? In the right systems, perhaps. On a Sully run team, who knows.

But he can certainly look to the non-QO RFAs, he can look at a Smith swap, he can trade out a future pick (not a 1st). It's possible he can do a buy-low deal like the Mikheyev deal but only if they truly think it will help the team. Mikheyev is a low-grade move that's why he went to Chicago who is NOT competing vs a contender. Plenty of teams would have loved to take on a 2nd round pick if Mikheyev was a quality top 6 wing. But...he's not so...but that also doesn't mean there aren't other deals like that out there. Laine for example. Texier would have been a move in that mold. Dellandrea another one. I'd be checking for teams that will trade a 2-3 year deal for Smith's 1 year deal, especially if they have big expenses coming up. Example of that might be Marchment in Dallas. They have Wyatt Johnson and Oettinger coming due for raises next summer.

 

[SEALBound]

Yzerman looking like a fool GM more and more with each day too. If you're going to be a dumbass please take Jarry instead of Trouba. NYR seem to be able to find a team to get rid of their trash just in time like every freaking time.

Gentlemen, we've found our dance partner....

You can’t tell me a team wouldn’t take Reilly Smith for a 4th or 5th… he’s not getting what he wants because his ask is unrealistic. So he’s just going to throw his hands in the air and say “there weren’t any deals that made sense for us, but we are extremely confident in the group we have.” He’s going to sign a few depth guys (who probably aren’t very young and hungry) and it’s just going to be a repeat of the same old shit

Maybe. I wouldn't trade Smith for a 4th though. To replace Smith, you're going to have to pay $5mil on the open market and I can't think of many that would be willing to sign for one year. Or two years. Or at a term that makes sense. Now maybe if you go a FA and you get a guy for $3-4mil for 1-2 years that makes him redundant, then sure, send him out for a 4th or 5th. But we are at the part of the off-season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Which quotes are you referring to? When I reference what he said, I'm talking about the presser he did yesterday at the draft. I think he outlined the path pretty well:

4. They are open to trades but not ones where you get low value or have to pay to move guys. Meaning they won't be dumping Smith for a 5th or Jarry for future considerations. They will only move guys in trades that make sense for the team.

This one seems to be a prime case of Dubas saying he's fine doing nothing.

He basically said "we're not going to be active in UFA and we're not going to trade guys unless we can get a good return for him". How is that not basically saying "I'm fine with doing nothing"?

 

[Jacob]

The thing is Yzerman seemed like a genius in Tampa. I guess it was just the people around him because his philosophy in Detroit has been the complete opposite

It did take them quite a while to finally win anything, and they were competitive before the Cups, but they were also in Tank City for a while and even missed the playoffs altogether once in the Cooper era.

I don’t think he’s a bad GM but I think his success has gone to his head a bit. Signings like Copp and acquisitions like Petry tell me he’s a poor judge of where that roster is at this point in time.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He didn't do "nothing."

He signed Ned and is now waffling on trading Jarry creating a more expensive goaltending tandem that went absolutely nowhere last year and also went out and got powerplay coach extraordinaire David Quinn. And not at all because he's besties with Sullivan... Sullivan wants you to know.

Pffft. You guys are need to pay more attention. Dudes movin' and shakin'

 

[Dough72]

He also talks about acquiring picks and prospects but then he mentions he’s not going to trade guys just to trade them…

because he is self-interested and only wants a trade that will look good on his resume. I see similar behavior in baseball all the time where a team's bullpen is costing them their season and a GM will sit on his hands for 1-2 months waiting for a trade that looks good on his resume.

 

[Gurglesons]

He didn't do "nothing."

He signed Ned and is now waffling on trading Jarry creating a more expensive goaltending tandem that went absolutely nowhere last year and also went out and got powerplay coach extraordinaire David Quinn. And not at all because he's besties with Sullivan... Sullivan wants you to know.

Pffft. You guys are need to pay more attention. Dudes movin' and shakin'

Everyone sounds like I sound when I defend Hextall, I guess?

Out of body experience I am having.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

because he is self-interested and only wants a trade that will look good on his resume. I see similar behavior in baseball all the time where a team's bullpen is costing them their season and a GM will sit on his hands for 1-2 months waiting for a trade that looks good on his resume.

Ah so this is why he let Reirden glom around all season.

He didn't want to be the GM that fired the great and illustrious Todd Reirden.

 

[SEALBound]

This one seems to be a prime case of Dubas saying he's fine doing nothing.

He basically said "we're not going to be active in UFA and we're not going to trade guys unless we can get a good return for him". How is that not basically saying "I'm fine with doing nothing"?

He didn't say they wouldn't be active in FA. He said they would be looking at short-term deals, not long-term ones. So, I guess it depends on how we define "active." He's probably not going for Bertuzzi, Guentzel, Stamkos, etc., who all want long-term deals.

But to your point, I agree with "if we don't get what we want, we won't do anything". I just think that's different than not having a plan. Quite the opposite in fact. If he's sending out POJ, trading Smith for a 4th, signing TT to a 6 year deal...then yeah, I'd say there's not much of a plan.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've made it pretty clear that I'd be happy keeping Smith going into next year, I think he can be a legitimate difference maker on the 3rd line. I've also said that I understand the idea of keeping Jarry, in the hope that he bounces back next year and you can sell him for more next off-season than this off-season. The same is true with Rakell, he likely becomes much more tradeable with a healthy year next year. I also figure Eller brings back a better return at the deadline next year than he brings back now (although I figure it's marginal).

The problem is saying no to moving all of those players. In isolation, maybe it's fine to say "it's okay to not move this guy right now" with any of those players. It's just that saying no to moving any of them is just going to make this team go into next year as literally no different.

The impression I'm getting is that they'll enter next year with this kind of lineup:

O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
Smith-Eller-Puustinen
Poulin-Acciari-Some shitty UFA

POJ-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Graves-St. Ivany

Jarry-Nedjelkovic

How is that an acceptable outcome to anyone? Anyone posting on HFBoards could do the same job as Dubas with this lineup and cost a fraction of the money.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ah so this is why he let Reirden glom around all season.

He didn't want to be the GM that fired the great and illustrious Todd Reirden.

This is honestly where I have no faith in Dubas. You make the trade you make last year for EK65 and then you don’t even have the balls to fire an assistant coach?

I've made it pretty clear that I'd be happy keeping Smith going into next year, I think he can be a legitimate difference maker on the 3rd line. I've also said that I understand the idea of keeping Jarry, in the hope that he bounces back next year and you can sell him for more next off-season than this off-season. The same is true with Rakell, he likely becomes much more tradeable with a healthy year next year. I also figure Eller brings back a better return at the deadline next year than he brings back now (although I figure it's marginal).

The problem is saying no to moving all of those players. In isolation, maybe it's fine to say "it's okay to not move this guy right now" with any of those players. It's just that saying no to moving any of them is just going to make this team go into next year as literally no different.

The impression I'm getting is that they'll enter next year with this kind of lineup:

O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
Smith-Eller-Puustinen
Poulin-Acciari-Some shitty UFA

POJ-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Graves-St. Ivany

Jarry-Nedjelkovic

How is that an acceptable outcome to anyone? Anyone posting on HFBoards could do the same job as Dubas with this lineup and cost a fraction of the money.

I bet he brings in Beauvillier and a LHD or RHD to block out a spot too.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

To give the FO some credit to offset the long list of self-owns... the quote yesterday about waiting out early FA and finding some deals later in the offseason was encouraging. It drives me up the wall every year when the team goes out and buys up every Brock McGinn at premium prices then a year or so later everyone is looking around like "WHA HAPPEN?!?"

 

[SEALBound]

He didn't do "nothing."

He signed Ned and is now waffling on trading Jarry creating a more expensive goaltending tandem that went absolutely nowhere last year and also went out and got powerplay coach extraordinaire David Quinn. And not at all because he's besties with Sullivan... Sullivan wants you to know.

Pffft. You guys are need to pay more attention. Dudes movin' and shakin'

On the David Quinn front, Dubas made an interesting comment there about how their relationship (Sullivan and Quinn) might be such that Quinn is comfortable pushing back on Sullivan when he's wrong. That's something that Tocchet used to do that I think we've be missing since he left. It's a VERY small sliver of hope in vast darkness but it's something.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I bet he brings in Beauvillier and a LHD or RHD to block out a spot too.

Yeah I figure Puustinen is viewed more as an extra that has to earn a spot and they bring in another top-9 guy to make the 3rd line either UFA-Eller-Smith or O'Connor-Eller-Smith.

Which is actually a move I don't disagree with, I'm really whelmed about the idea of Puustinen being a top-9 regular.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

How is that an acceptable outcome to anyone? Anyone posting on HFBoards could do the same job as Dubas with this lineup and cost a fraction of the money.

Seven million just don't getcha what it used to, Emp.

This is honestly where I have no faith in Dubas. You make the trade you make last year for EK65 and then you don’t even have the balls to fire an assistant coach?

This is the moment in time where I threw my hands up and said "I shoulda listened to @SomeDude"

On the David Quinn front, Dubas made an interesting comment there about how their relationship (Sullivan and Quinn) might be such that Quinn is comfortable pushing back on Sullivan when he's wrong. That's something that Tocchet used to do that I think we've be missing since he left. It's a VERY small sliver of hope in vast darkness but it's something.

Eh... I appreciate the attempt at a silver lining but I think Quinn was largely hired for the exact opposite reasons.

 

[SEALBound]

I've made it pretty clear that I'd be happy keeping Smith going into next year, I think he can be a legitimate difference maker on the 3rd line. I've also said that I understand the idea of keeping Jarry, in the hope that he bounces back next year and you can sell him for more next off-season than this off-season. The same is true with Rakell, he likely becomes much more tradeable with a healthy year next year. I also figure Eller brings back a better return at the deadline next year than he brings back now (although I figure it's marginal).

The problem is saying no to moving all of those players. In isolation, maybe it's fine to say "it's okay to not move this guy right now" with any of those players. It's just that saying no to moving any of them is just going to make this team go into next year as literally no different.

The impression I'm getting is that they'll enter next year with this kind of lineup:

O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
Smith-Eller-Puustinen
Poulin-Acciari-Some shitty UFA

POJ-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Graves-St. Ivany

Jarry-Nedjelkovic

How is that an acceptable outcome to anyone? Anyone posting on HFBoards could do the same job as Dubas with this lineup and cost a fraction of the money.

It's not. The only saving grace is if they feel like Koivunen, Pono, and Yager can all contribute and will get early season opportunities.

 

[Andy99]

This one seems to be a prime case of Dubas saying he's fine doing nothing.

He basically said "we're not going to be active in UFA and we're not going to trade guys unless we can get a good return for him". How is that not basically saying "I'm fine with doing nothing"?

He is saying that…the audience is his fellow GMs…doesn’t mean that’s what he wants to do

 

[SEALBound]

Seven million just don't getcha what it used to, Emp.



This is the moment in time where I threw my hands up and said "I shoulda listened to @SomeDude"



Eh... I appreciate the attempt at a silver lining but I think Quinn was largely hired for the exact opposite reasons.

Maybe...probably...but I hope not.

Didn't some president or GM say that GM'ing isn't that hard and that some casual NHL fans could do okay at it ?

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not. The only saving grace is if they feel like Koivunen, Pono, and Yager can all contribute and will get early season opportunities.

It’s going to be Gruden over all of them.

Or Bemstrom if we re-sign him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Maybe...probably...but I hope not.

Didn't some president or GM say that GM'ing isn't that hard and that some casual NHL fans could do okay at it ?

GMs and NHL coaches are all largely just former meatheads with varying levels of brain injuries and the added handicap of age on top of that. These are not the best and brightest I'm afraid. And it doesn't help that the league just keeps tossin' 'em all back in the merry go round after they've failed. Often many times.

 

[Gurglesons]

Caps continue to hit home runs. Malenstyn for a 2nd. Basically makes it Mangia for Malenstyn lol

 

[SEALBound]

GMs and NHL coaches are all largely just former meatheads with varying levels of brain injuries and the added handicap of age on top of that. These are not the best and brightest I'm afraid. And it doesn't help that the league just keeps tossin' 'em all back in the merry go round after they've failed. Often many times.

If only...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The Capitals continuing to pull ahead of the Penguins at their own game and at the same stage in their arc would be added insult to injury.

It's really weird but something tells me part of it has to do with actually changing stuff instead of just shrugging your way through seasons at a time while saying "gotta evaluate!" and "well we can't do THAT!"

 

[Empoleon8771]

Caps continue to hit home runs. Malenstyn for a 2nd. Basically makes it Mangia for Malenstyn lol

I have genuinely no clue why Buffalo made that deal. Who the hell is Malenstyn?