Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[AuroraBorealis]

He doesn't win puck battles, though. He loses them along the boards. He loses possession because his hands are atrocious. He's weak on his stick.

And DOC is three years younger. Zohorna is 28. He's the same age as Bunting and a year older than Pettersson.

He's not a prospect. He's not worth a roster spot, especially not when you have Poulin, Ponomarev, and others deserving a look at the NHL level and Broz, Koivunen and others deserving prime AHL time.

Weak on his stick? Sorry bud, you're out to lunch on that one. He's like the strongest on his stick on our entire roster outside of Sid. He puts his weight on it and guys have real trouble dispossessing him.
That's a big reason why he has a career 55.2% corsi, despite 62.8% D-zone starts?

It doesn't f***ing matter what his label is, prospect, veteran or journeyman. Saying "age 28" vs "age 23" doesn't matter either. Only thing that matters if he's better or worse than our other options in 2024-25.
I don't see any reason why Poulin should be ahead of Z. Nothing concrete supports that. Where are the numbers?
You can test the unknown guys, sure. By all means. I'll wait for the sample suggesting they should be ahead of others though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Weak on his stick? Sorry bud, you're out to lunch on that one. He's like the strongest on his stick on our entire roster outside of Sid. He puts his weight on it and guys have real trouble dispossessing him.
That's a big reason why he has a career 55.2% corsi, despite 62.8% D-zone starts?

It doesn't f***ing matter what his label is, prospect, veteran or journeyman. Saying "age 28" vs "age 23" doesn't matter either. Only thing that matters if he's better or worse than our other options in 2024-25.
I don't see any reason why Poulin should be ahead of Z. Nothing concrete supports that. Where are the numbers?
You can test the unknown guys, sure. By all means. I'll wait for the sample suggesting they should be ahead of others though.

What

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't see anything with Zohorna that makes him any different than those guys. Well, outside of Carter because Carter is a special kind of bad.

Ha... it's funny because as far-past-done as I was watching Carter glom around out there I think he actually is the best of that inglorious bunch.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

He can forecheck. Zohorna can't.

Zohorna is a player I argued that should've played the last few years, but he simply showed that he could play 2-3 games at the NHL level and then couldn't deliver beyond then.

I'd honestly perfect none of those.

Yeah the guy with 55% career corsi with a massive amount of D-zone starts can't forecheck.

What

Yep. Only credited with 8 career giveaways. Checks out.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Idk I'd rather not have to default to "he sucks but he sucks slightly less than the other guys" for bottom-6 roles in general

i don’t know how to break this to you Emp, but this is the Penguins we are talking about here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah the guy with 55% career corsi with a massive amount of D-zone starts can't forecheck.
Ugh. I'm done. Have a good day guys.


Yep. Only credited with 8 career giveaways. Checks out.

You're using stats that aren't even reflective of the discussion to make an eye test argument on a player's skillset. It's a silly argument.

Zohorna can't forecheck because he's slow and soft. Him having a good CF% isn't an argument for him being a good forechecker. Same thing with giveaways, him having a low amount of credited giveaways (which are highly questionable to begin with) means nothing about how strong he plays with his stick.

Using the giveaway example, a player can have a ton of giveaways from any of:

1. Being soft and being knocked off the puck a lot.
2. Making ill-advised passes that get intercepted.
3. Bad stat counting.

And there's even more that don't immediately jump to mind. Saying "he's strong on his stick because he has a low amount of giveaways" doesn't make sense, that's a non-sequitur.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You're using stats that aren't even reflective of the discussion to make an eye test argument on a player's skillset. It's a silly argument.

Zohorna can't forecheck because he's slow and soft. Him having a good CF% isn't an argument for him being a good forechecker. Same thing with giveaways, him having a low amount of credited giveaways (which are highly questionable to begin with) means nothing about how strong he plays with his stick.

35 takeaways in 68 career games, not even averaging very many minutes. He's an effective forechecker, largely because of his reach and decent speed for his size. He blocks exits.
Harkins for example had 9 takeaways in 45 games last year.

I'm mystified as to why you guys can't see this happening on the ice when it transpires, but I can only deduce that you guys are blinded by emotions.
You guys are way too hard on the guy compared to others in the same boat. It's obviously personal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

35 takeaways in 68 career games. He's an effective forechecker, largely because of his reach and decent speed for his size. He blocks exits.
Harkins for example had 9 takeaways in 45 games last year.

I'm mystified as to why you guys can't see this happening on the ice when it transpires, but I can only deduce that you guys are blinded by emotions.
You guys are way too hard on the guy compared to others in the same boat. It's obviously personal.

Again, you're making non-sequitur arguments based on stats you're using. Having a lot of takeaways does not necessarily make him a good forechecker. It doesn't make sense. You just keep grab-bagging some random stats to support an argument that fundamentally requires an eye test evaluation of his skillset.

If you think everyone else has it out as a personal issue with Zohorna, the reality is that it's personal to just you.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Hey Malkin led the league in takeaways this year!

But wait I thought he was bad and stuff?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Again, you're making non-sequitur arguments based on stats you're using. Having a lot of takeaways does not necessarily make him a good forechecker. It doesn't make sense. You just keep grab-bagging some random stats to support an argument that fundamentally requires an eye test evaluation of his skillset.

If you think everyone else has it out as a personal issue with Zohorna, the reality is that it's personal to just you.

I like Z because he outperforms alternatives. It's nothing beyond that.
I'm totally on board with him not playing if he's being replaced by guys like Puustinen or DOC on the upswing.
But I'm not fine with him behind guys who are worse. It's as simple as that.

You don't generate that many takeaways and that good corsi (with difficult minutes and bad linemates) out of thin air. He's obviously doing something that's working.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Hey Malkin led the league in takeaways this year!

But wait I thought he was bad and stuff?

He's still an above average 2C.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He's still an above average 2C.

Hell the first couple-ish months and last couple-ish months of the past season he was a GREAT 2C!

Just uh... those middle parts maybe uh... look away.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Hell the first couple-ish months and last couple-ish months of the past season he was a GREAT 2C!

Just uh... those middle parts maybe uh... look away.

Yeah, that's why I'm big on averages over bursts. They account for the swings.
I will also say there's good reason to believe Malkin can still be 2C level next year, with Bunting here. That's a really healthy fit.
That's a guy that can motivate Geno, and fill in weaknesses on the line. And Bunting is a pretty established producer at this point too, I would say.
Not to mention Bunting can help Geno's PPP totals with being a good net-front.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, that's why I'm big on averages over bursts. They account for the swings.
I will also say there's good reason to believe Malkin can still be 2C level next year, with Bunting here. That's a really healthy fit.
That's a guy that can motivate Geno, and fill in weaknesses on the line. And Bunting is a pretty established producer at this point too, I would say.
Not to mention Bunting can help Geno's PPP totals with being a good net-front.

Eh. You know me... I'm a big Malkin guy. But he's gonna be QUITE aged next year. Most of the offensive tools are still there but it's gonna be like 60ish point seasons at best from here on out I think. Also I like Bunting but you know how that goes on this team... in like a lion... out like a mouse. Bet he swerves back to "meh" next year a la... well... everyone. But I was thinking specifically Rakell, here.

The time to take full advantage of what Malkin could still offer was last year and this recently passed year. They botched it and opted to just beat him while he was down, instead. What can ya do? But hey at least the powerplay had a nice scapegoat. Yanking him sure fixed it right up.

Anywho that's all a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah the guy with 55% career corsi with a massive amount of D-zone starts can't forecheck.

Yeah, that is accurate.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Eh. You know me... I'm a big Malkin guy. But he's gonna be QUITE aged next year. Most of the offensive tools are still there but it's gonna be like 60ish point seasons at best from here on out I think. Also I like Bunting but you know how that goes on this team... in like a lion... out like a mouse. Bet he swerves back to "meh" next year a la... well... everyone. But I was thinking specifically Rakell, here.

The time to take full advantage of what Malkin could still offer was last year and this recently passed year. They botched it and opted to just beat him while he was down, instead. What can ya do? But hey at least the powerplay had a nice scapegoat. Yanking him sure fixed it right up.

Anywho that's all a whole other kettle of fish.

Yeah but 55-60 points is an above average 2C still. That's what I'm saying. He can still play up to his AAV, or at least come close.
And I think Bunting is fairly likely to play up to his 4.5M as well, especially if he's a mainstay on PP1.

I'm more concerned about the guys who didn't and likely won't play up to their cap hits. Karlsson, Graves, Rakell, Smith.

 

[The GM]

I wish something exciting would happen so we'd have a more compelling topic than Radim f-ing Zahorna.

Maybe we can get the sunk cost definition discussion rolling again

 

[chethejet]

Zahorna was not good enough....period. Now let's get some wingers who bring needed jam, size and help the hard for check. Pens with three moves really can be a much better team. Stephenson, and a bigger RW with some jam is what I really like. Move Smith at the draft day for a pick and maybe Pens retain a million. Petry still is on retention and I think only 2 players can be on retention a year.

Stephenson Sid Rust
Bunting Geno Rakell
DOC Eller FA
? Poulin Acciari.

 

[pensfan71]

I think Friedge said VGK offered Stephenson 6 years at a LOW cap hit, which im taking to mean like 4-5M, so his contract will probably imitate Palat's

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Same thing with giveaways, him having a low amount of credited giveaways (which are highly questionable to begin with) means nothing about how strong he plays with his stick.

Can't give the puck away if your pass reception is so shitty you barely have the puck.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I think Friedge said VGK offered Stephenson 6 years at a LOW cap hit, which im taking to mean like 4-5M, so his contract will probably imitate Palat's

If he doesn't take that on Vegas I do not think we should be paying for Stephenson then.

Palat got 6 million for 5 years.
I have to think that Stephenson similar caliber of player would be wanting like 6x6 or maybe a hair under.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I know we're bored but I didn't expect to see 3 pages talking about Zohorna lol

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know we're bored but I didn't expect to see 3 pages talking about Zohorna lol

Yeah the Summer is definitely coming on lol

Lets talk instead about how awesome split powerplay units worked this season. More than a few people have been really pushing for that here for years, now. Boy... sure changed MY mind on the subject after seeing it first hand for like 40+ games or whatever. Just killing it out there.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't put a ton into the stat because of how it can often be a bit... wonky... as Emp outlined further above. But my friend who is a Leafs fan (yeah yeah I know) just told me Marner had 50some turnovers in that SERIES and I'm just over here trying to figure out how that's even possible.

 

[66-30-33]

Stephenson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Marner (2.5M retained)

Just for fun.