Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[AuroraBorealis]

Zohorna had 2 points in his last 24 games in the NHL and played himself out of the NHL. Sullivan's love of Harkins has nothing to do with why Zohorna wasn't playing, Zohorna wasn't playing because he stunk.

I was super optimistic about him after a great start to the year, but he fell off a cliff and became useless out there.

And he may become useful again, because his career totals as a Penguin vs his minutes suggest that's a distinct possibility.
What you're supposed to do is give up on guys with shit averages and recent failure, because they are indeed hopeless.

Z deserves one more proper season of non-shit usage to determine if he can be more useful than other in-house options. This is definitely true, no matter how much you and that other guy hate him.
There's no good reason to dismiss him right now, because the alternatives are gonna be underwhelming too. Our depth chart sucks.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And he may become useful again, because his career totals as a Penguin vs his minutes suggest that's a distinct possibility.
What you're supposed to do is give up on guys with shit averages and recent failure, because they are indeed hopeless.

Z deserves one more proper season of non-shit usage to determine if he can be more useful than other in-house options. This is definitely true, no matter how much you and that other guy hate him.
There's no good reason to dismiss him right now, because the alternatives are gonna be underwhelming too. Our depth chart sucks.

Zohorna is 28 and has a career high of 7 points in a NHL season.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's summer.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

It's summer.

You ready for puck drop? Only 22 weeks left.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Zohorna is 28 and has a career high of 7 points in a NHL season.

And you know full well the circumstances that led to this, Emp. Stop playing dumb for the sake of a narrative. It's boring and annoying. Be more objective.
He's played 68 games in this league. He's got 18 points, while averaging 9:39 with shit linemates, getting whipped around the league in short stints. He's totally fine.
As of today, there is no good reason to believe he doesn't have a decent shot of outperforming our alternatives. Bottom line.
Even this year Z's 5v5 P/P60 was above Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Puljujarvi, Carter, Harkins, Gruden, Bemstrom.

It was like 15% behind O'Connor's rate, who got massive praise. He is fine.

 

[Gurglesons]

You ready for puck drop? Only 22 weeks left.

Just over arguing over a 28 year old Euro player who is going to be out of the league likely this summer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And you know full well the circumstances that led to this, Emp. Stop playing dumb for the sake of a narrative. It's boring and annoying. Be more objective.
He's played 68 games in this league. He's got 18 points, while averaging 9:39 with shit linemates, getting whipped around the league in short stints. He's totally fine.
As of today, there is no good reason to believe he doesn't have a decent shot of outperforming our alternatives. Bottom line.
Even this year Z's 5v5 P/P60 was above Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Puljujarvi, Carter, Harkins, Gruden, Bemstrom.

It was like 15% behind O'Connor's rate, who got massive praise. He is fine.

Hilarious you say that as you're clinging to points/60, which no teams make lineup decisions based on, to say Zohorna is actually good.

The "objective" reality here is that Zohorna fell off a cliff offensively after a hot start, where he put up 2 points in his last 24 games in the NHL. He also had extremely bad on-ice results over that window (-10.77% GF%rel and -3.42 xGF%rel) and offered basically nothing with the eye test.

Zohorna is huge, but he doesn't use that size whatsoever and it makes him a super vanilla and soft player. He doesn't offer any sort of notable skill, speed or role that would make him stick in a lineup spot, either. He's a nothing piece and the team moving on from him is a correct evaluation of his skillset. A good points/60 propped up from a great start (which I'm 100% disappointed did not last) doesn't invalidate how useless he was after that great start.

 

[Turin]

Don’t care, didn’t read, trade for Marner. It’s happening.


Just means less suitors and less expensive.

Yea but maybe Dubas is sour on the guy

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Yea but maybe Dubas is sour on the guy

let me dream man

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Hilarious you say that as you're clinging to points/60, which no teams make lineup decisions based on, to say Zohorna is actually good.

The "objective" reality here is that Zohorna fell off a cliff offensively after a hot start, where he put up 2 points in his last 24 games in the NHL. He also had extremely bad on-ice results over that window (-10.77% GF%rel and -3.42 xGF%rel) and offered basically nothing with the eye test.

Zohorna is huge, but he doesn't use that size whatsoever and it makes him a super vanilla and soft player. He doesn't offer any sort of notable skill, speed or role that would make him stick in a lineup spot, either. He's a nothing piece and the team moving on from him is a correct evaluation of his skillset.

All these guys are nothing pieces. They're bottom-sixers. Our alternatives for him are also gonna be nothing pieces.
You simply choose the one that is the least nothing of the lot.
Our team chose incorrectly this year on a few guys, and missed the playoffs as a result. This happened last year too.

I "cling" to that stat because it's more honest and accurate than points per game, which you also know and understand. Comparing some guys who get 15mins 5v5 per game to those who get like 5 mins, all under "points per game", is the most idiotic, biased garbage ever.
Front-loaded points are still points. Back-loaded points are still points. Middle-loaded points are still points. Yeah you'd like it to be super evenly dispersed ideally, but that doesn't happen that much.

 

[SEALBound]

And you know full well the circumstances that led to this, Emp. Stop playing dumb for the sake of a narrative. It's boring and annoying. Be more objective.
He's played 68 games in this league. He's got 18 points, while averaging 9:39 with shit linemates, getting whipped around the league in short stints. He's totally fine.
As of today, there is no good reason to believe he doesn't have a decent shot of outperforming our alternatives. Bottom line.
Even this year Z's 5v5 P/P60 was above Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Puljujarvi, Carter, Harkins, Gruden, Bemstrom.

It was like 15% behind O'Connor's rate, who got massive praise. He is fine.

DOC became aware of his physical abilities, though and developed into a good player. Zohorna plays as if he's 5'11. I wanted him to figure it out. I suggested showing him films of Lucic and Kreider and telling him that is his NHL future path IF there is to be one but alas, he kinda is what he is at this point.

The problem is that now, he's just not done anything to warrant playing him over some of the new guys. Again, I'd take him back in the AHL. But I'd want to roll through Poulin, Ponomarov, Koivunen, Yager, Gruden, and any journeyman we get before I say Zohorna.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Idk I'd rather not have to default to "he sucks but he sucks slightly less than the other guys" for bottom-6 roles in general

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Idk I'd rather not have to default to "he sucks but he sucks slightly less than the other guys" for bottom-6 roles in general

That's what's going to happen though. If Harkins is gone, this moronic coach is gonna target a PK-only player. He prioritizes defense over offense at a ratio of like 80-20.
If you're looking for bottom-six scoring, which we need badly, you're not gonna like the guy that replaces Z.

The problem is that now, he's just not done anything to warrant playing him over some of the new guys. Again, I'd take him back in the AHL. But I'd want to roll through Poulin, Ponomarov, Koivunen, Yager, Gruden, and any journeyman we get before I say Zohorna.

When all those guys you listed start outperforming his career average with the Penguins, I will prioritize them too. But they haven't to this point.

Career stats for Pittsburgh at 5v5. You are wrong when you say that Z's done nothing at this level. Straight up. He does more than like all other bottom-sixers we use relative to minutes.
Will that decline? Probably. But I'd like to see that first happen over a full season before replacing him with the next Harkins...the next 1.10 P/60 guy. Like, what is the rush to bring in that crap?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

All these guys are nothing pieces. They're bottom-sixers. Our alternatives for him are also gonna be nothing pieces.
You simply choose the one that is the least nothing of the lot.
Our team chose incorrectly this year on a few guys, and missed the playoffs as a result. This happened last year too.

I "cling" to that stat because it's more honest and accurate than points per game, which you also know and understand. Comparing some guys who get 15mins 5v5 per game to those who get like 5 mins, all under "points per game", is the most idiotic, biased garbage ever.
Front-loaded points are still points. Back-loaded points are still points. Middle-loaded points are still points. Yeah you'd like it to be super evenly dispersed ideally, but that doesn't happen that much.

Zohorna has been with two other NHL franchises, neither of whom found a spot for him.

It's not just points. He's invisible. DOC found a way to make an impact when he's not scoring by being a relentless core checker and solid penalty killer. Hell, Puustinen has had more games where he hasn't produced but used his speed well to be disruptive.

I'm not sure if Puljujarvi can be a consistent NHL player following his hip surgery, but he also showed more in his intermittent appearances than Zohorna did. He brought an element of physicality and willingness to go to the net..

Zohorna is the softest big man I've seen in a long time. He wants to be a finesse player, yet he handles the puck like a grenade.

He got his chances. He's in his late 20s. Time to clear out for younger guys. There's no room at the inn. Bye.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Zohorna has been with two other NHL franchises, neither of whom found a spot for him.

It's not just points. He's invisible. DOC found a way to make an impact when he's not scoring by being a relentless core checker and solid penalty killer. Hell, Puustinen has had more games where he hasn't produced but used his speed well to be disruptive.

I'm not sure if Puljujarvi can be a consistent NHL player following his hip surgery, but he also showed more in his intermittent appearances than Zohorna did. He brought an element of physicality and willingness to go to the net..

Zohorna is the softest big man I've seen in a long time. He wants to be a finesse player, yet he handles the puck like a grenade.

He got his chances. He's in his late 20s. Time to clear out for younger guys. There's no room at the inn. Bye.

He's not invisible. He does very good stickwork and possession work in the O-zone. He tracks back well when they lose possession, and makes breakouts difficult for the opposition with his reach.
Laying the body is not the only way to win the puck back.
He did not get his chances. DOC got his chances. The rope was very different.

 

[SEALBound]

That's what's going to happen though. If Harkins is gone, this moronic coach is gonna target a PK-only player. He prioritizes defense over offense at a ratio of like 80-20.
If you're looking for bottom-six scoring, which we need badly, you're not gonna like the guy that replaces Z.

When all those guys you listed start outperforming his career average with the Penguins, I will prioritize them too. But they haven't to this point.

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Career stats for Pittsburgh at 5v5. You are wrong when you say that Z's done nothing at this level. Straight up. He does more than like all other bottom-sixers we use relative to minutes.
Will that decline? Probably. But I'd like to see that first happen over a full season before replacing him with the next Harkins...the next 1.10 P/60 guy. Like, what is the rush to bring in that crap?

I mean, that's tough to compare to an extent because DOC has triple the games.

There were several points this year where Big Z could have seized an opportunity to stay. While DOC began to look good with Sid and Rust, he wasn't glued there. A couple of times Smith got bumped up to Sid's line. If Zohorna was capable and deserving, he could have been given the chance on Sid's line as well. But he didn't.

To an extent too, I think we can probably recognize that there's more going on there than merely points. And a more fair assessment would be 7pts in 33gp which is a pace of 18pts over 82gp. That's replacement level production. He got limited time with the Pens over two season, spent time with both Calgary and Toronto, got the same amount of time and was sent down. Came back to the Pens, got time and was sent back down. This is his fourth season with that level of play and he's 28. I just don't think there's much more there. Or, to be more fair, I don't think there's an untapped potential there that should require to prioritize him over a couple of the younger kids.

It's not that he's not capable but as much as we need a new coach, we need a couple bottom 6 players that can actually do something.

 

[Pancakes]

I wish something exciting would happen so we'd have a more compelling topic than Radim f-ing Zahorna.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

He's not invisible. He does very good stickwork and possession work in the O-zone. He tracks back well when they lose possession, and makes breakouts difficult for the opposition with his reach.
Laying the body is not the only way to win the puck back.
He did not get his chances. DOC got his chances. The rope was very different.

He doesn't win puck battles, though. He loses them along the boards. He loses possession because his hands are atrocious. He's weak on his stick.

And DOC is three years younger. Zohorna is 28. He's the same age as Bunting and a year older than Pettersson.

He's not a prospect. He's not worth a roster spot, especially not when you have Poulin, Ponomarev, and others deserving a look at the NHL level and Broz, Koivunen and others deserving prime AHL time.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, that's tough to compare to an extent because DOC has triple the games.

There were several points this year where Big Z could have seized an opportunity to stay. While DOC began to look good with Sid and Rust, he wasn't glued there. A couple of times Smith got bumped up to Sid's line. If Zohorna was capable and deserving, he could have been given the chance on Sid's line as well. But he didn't.

To an extent too, I think we can probably recognize that there's more going on there than merely points. And a more fair assessment would be 7pts in 33gp which is a pace of 18pts over 82gp. That's replacement level production. He got limited time with the Pens over two season, spent time with both Calgary and Toronto, got the same amount of time and was sent down. Came back to the Pens, got time and was sent back down. This is his fourth season with that level of play and he's 28. I just don't think there's much more there. Or, to be more fair, I don't think there's an untapped potential there that should require to prioritize him over a couple of the younger kids.

It's not that he's not capable but as much as we need a new coach, we need a couple bottom 6 players that can actually do something.

It's not tough to compare.

Zohorna sucks ass and DOC is an NHL player.

Harkins is a more effective player than Zohorna.

Zohorona's career numbers look good because of a random 17 game sample in his first year. He played 33 this year and looked worse in terms of the stat Rikkola fan is using than DOC ever has in the NHL.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think much of Z these days. I mean... he's almost 30. I can understand that there are some things that maybe weren't completely in his control along his developmental path and has had to play at least in Pittsburgh for a bunch of morons who haven't developed an NHL player since like... Dom Simon.

All that said for league min I'd take him over utter nothings from this past year like Harkins, Acciari, Nieto, the vast majority of Jeff Carter and of course inevitably whatever tenth-time-warmed-over 30some year old league journeyman Mike Sullivan cries about getting until Dubas relents this upcoming season.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If Zohorna was capable and deserving, he could have been given the chance on Sid's line as well. But he didn't.

This level of trust with Sullivan's decision making needs to stop on this board. He can't be trusted. His logic doesn't work. It's established, proven.

I mean, that's tough to compare to an extent because DOC has triple the games.

Right, which is why you give the guy a larger sample to see how he compares to others. You do this before giving up. It's not like there's great alternatives waiting in the wings anyway.

To an extent too, I think we can probably recognize that there's more going on there than merely points. And a more fair assessment would be 7pts in 33gp which is a pace of 18pts over 82gp. That's replacement level production.

Please stop using points per game with guys who often get crushed with like 6-7 mins a night. It's dishonest and lazy. Use points relative to minutes.

Z was #3 among all our bottom-sixers in his down year. DOC had a lot of time in the top-six as well.
Puustinen was the clear #1, at 2.03. Wanted to make it one screenshot, and the list was too long.

Z is fine. The only reason to put him at the bottom of the hopefuls list is because of a personal beef.

 

[Gurglesons]

All that said for league min I'd take him over utter nothings from this past year like Harkins, Acciari, Nieto, the vast majority of Jeff Carter and of course inevitably whatever tenth-time-warmed-over 30some year old league journeyman Mike Sullivan cries about getting until Dubas relents this upcoming season.

I wouldn't and I hate all of those guys.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's funny to me that anyone who thinks Zohorna is a nothing piece has "personal beef" with Zohorna and isn't being "objective", but just parroting "points/60" over and over again counts as completely legitimate and objective.

All that said for league min I'd take him over utter nothings from this past year like Harkins, Acciari, Nieto, the vast majority of Jeff Carter and of course inevitably whatever tenth-time-warmed-over 30some year old league journeyman Mike Sullivan cries about getting until Dubas relents this upcoming season.

I don't see anything with Zohorna that makes him any different than those guys. Well, outside of Carter because Carter is a special kind of bad.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wouldn't and I hate all of those guys.

I'd rather have a bury-able contract... which I guess Nieto and Harkins are. I'm mostly saying that if the options are "HURRR WE NEED A 2-3M DOLLAR FOURTH LINER THAT'LL PUT UP 20 POINTS MAYBE BECAUSE I RECOGNIZE HIS NAME!" or league minimum Z then it's pretty easy for me. I'm hardly pumping his tires, here.

What in the world does Harkins do that you'd ever want to see him in this lineup again? Haha... I mean to each their own but that's just odd to me. He'd look half shit on the Nailers IMO.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd rather have a bury-able contract... which I guess Nieto and Harkins are. I'm mostly saying that if the options are "HURRR WE NEED A 2-3M DOLLAR FOURTH LINER THAT'LL PUT UP 20 POINTS MAYBE BECAUSE I RECOGNIZE HIS NAME!" or league minimum Z then it's pretty easy for me. I'm hardly pumping his tires, here.

What in the world does Harkins do that you'd ever want to see him in this lineup again? Haha... I mean to each their own but that's just odd to me. He'd look half shit on the Nailers IMO.

He can forecheck. Zohorna can't.

Zohorna is a player I argued that should've played the last few years, but he simply showed that he could play 2-3 games at the NHL level and then couldn't deliver beyond then.

I'd honestly perfect none of those.