Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I get it but Hextall was given a year in a half before being crapped on. People were generally fine with Hextall until after his second offseason. Dubas barely hit a year.

This is true. On the surface it doesn't seem "fair" that Dubas is already suffering the slings and arrows. But a couple of points... firstly it has to be said that what the commentary is here is very much is not the same as what the commentary is across the team's fandom... for better and for worse. In other words... I'm quite sure the majority of fans at worst are ambivalent towards Dubas and more likely feel quite good about him based on how great everyone says he is and his paycheck. I mean... he MUST be awesome, right?

Secondly I think, among us here and some others, that there is a "I've seen this fish before" thing going on. In that we JUST saw a GM that was trying to flaccidly ride this line that is probably near impossible to do while paying out lip service to "competing." Nobody really wants to do that. They either want a bandage rip or a real effort to give Sid a sendoff for his final years. This in between stuff has people uneasy... at least speaking for myself. I think fans like myself wanted to see the new GM come in and be bold. When the reality is more like "same shit different nameplate." And that's frustrating.

 

[Gurglesons]

I get it but Hextall was given a year in a half before being crapped on. People were generally fine with Hextall until after his second offseason. Dubas barely hit a year.

Not really.

Dubas has also made a ton of total blunders already that were blunders from the moment they were made. Sorry, I'm not sure exactly why I need to give a GM who sucked in Toronto more space when he came here and has sucked so far too.

 

[66-30-33]

Dubas deserves everything he gets for keeping that Penguin killer Sullivan around.

 

[Darren McCord]

This is true. On the surface it doesn't seem "fair" that Dubas is already suffering the slings and arrows. But a couple of points... firstly it has to be said that what the commentary is here is very much is not the same as what the commentary is across the team's fandom... for better and for worse. In other words... I'm quite sure the majority of fans at worst are ambivalent towards Dubas and more likely feel quite good about him based on how great everyone says he is and his paycheck. I mean... he MUST be awesome, right?

Secondly I think, among us here and some others, that there is a "I've seen this fish before" thing going on. In that we JUST saw a GM that was trying to flaccidly ride this line that is probably near impossible to do while paying out lip service to "competing." Nobody really wants to do that. They either want a bandage rip or a real effort to give Sid a sendoff for his final years. This in between stuff has people uneasy... at least speaking for myself. I think fans like myself wanted to see the new GM come in and be bold. When the reality is more like "same shit different nameplate." And that's frustrating.

I mean I dislike the outcome but to me most of this is on Sullivan. Dubas's biggest issue is that he has kept him. But other than that I dont agree he is doing the same shtick as hextall.

He fired Reirden at least - Hextall wouldnt have.
He swung big for Karlsson but I think Sully Mangled that. - Hextall wouldn't have.
He trade Jake - Hextall wouldn't have. He showed that by keeping Zucker when he should have been traded.
I view Smith and Granlund as similar moves but Smith was cheaper and played a bit better.

They both overpaid for forwards in the bottom 6 and guys who didn't fit. But there is difference.

 

[Darren McCord]

Not really.

Dubas has also made a ton of total blunders already that were blunders from the moment they were made. Sorry, I'm not sure exactly why I need to give a GM who sucked in Toronto more space when he came here and has sucked so far too.

How so? People were fine with Hextall for the most part until he resigned Carter.

Things were generally considered fine outside of disagreements over the expansion draft. The Carter trade was seen as good. The Rakell trade was seen as good. People were generally happy about McGinn and Heinen signings. His first full year they were actually pretty good and should have beat the rangers if not for trouba. Then the rails fell off.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean I dislike the outcome but to me most of this is on Sullivan. Dubas's biggest issue is that he has kept him. But other than that I dont agree he is doing the same shtick as hextall.

He fired Reirden at least - Hextall wouldnt have.
He swung big for Karlsson but I think Sully Mangled that. - Hextall wouldn't have.
He trade Jake - Hextall wouldn't have. He showed that by keeping Zucker when he should have been traded.
I view Smith and Granlund as similar moves but Smith was cheaper and played a bit better.

They both overpaid for forwards in the bottom 6 and guys who didn't fit. But there is difference.

Hmmm I dunno. I mean... I don't disagree about Sullivan but isn't that kinda on Dubas? Is he not allowed to fire him? If so what is his purpose? He DID fire Reirden... eventually. Past the point of it mattering and after an entire season had been flushed that could have MAYBE been salvaged. That's not bold. I loved the EK deal and that he had the balls to trade Jake... I'll say that. But even those were kinda mixed bags.

I'm not saying he's irredeemable. Just that early returns at least to my eyes have been less than promising. Is he or is he not in charge, here? If he is then he must truly believe Mike Sullivan is the answer. And Ray Shero rightfully got fired for hitching his wagon to a loser so I don't see why Dubas shouldn't at least catch major heat for doing the same.

But YMMV it's all good.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Dubas deserves everything he gets for keeping that Penguin killer Sullivan around.

The dark reality is Sully has owned this franchise for 5+ years. Beantown meathead

 

[Darren McCord]

Hmmm I dunno. I mean... I don't disagree about Sullivan but isn't that kinda on Dubas? Is he not allowed to fire him? If so what is his purpose? He DID fire Reirden... eventually. Past the point of it mattering and after an entire season had been flushed that could have MAYBE been salvaged. That's not bold. I loved the EK deal and that he had the balls to trade Jake... I'll say that. But even those were kinda mixed bags.

I'm not saying he's irredeemable. Just that early returns at least to my eyes have been less than promising. Is he or is he not in charge, here? If he is then he must truly believe Mike Sullivan is the answer. And Ray Shero rightfully got fired for hitching his wagon to a loser so I don't see why Dubas shouldn't at least catch major heat for doing the same.

But YMMV it's all good.

I don't know if he can fire Sullivan. He would be going against an army to do it. He might actually be fired before Sullivan TBH. I think Hextall had the same problem.

FSG, The Core and Sullivan truly run this team. Sullivan being named to the USA head coach isn't going to help either. The US NHL props him up like Canada propped up Babcock for so long.

I hope the power shifts this offseasons more though after missing the playoffs again. I think even the Reirden firing was hard.

 

[Gurglesons]

How so? People were fine with Hextall for the most part until he resigned Carter.

Things were generally considered fine outside of disagreements over the expansion draft. The Carter trade was seen as good. The Rakell trade was seen as good. People were generally happy about McGinn and Heinen signings. His first full year they were actually pretty good and should have beat the rangers if not for trouba. Then the rails fell off.

Hextall was made GM on 2/9/2021 and re-signed Carter on 1/26/2022

Kyle Dubas was hired 6/1/2023.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't know if he can fire Sullivan. He would be going against an army to do it. He might actually be fired before Sullivan TBH. I think Hextall had the same problem.

FSG, The Core and Sullivan truly run this team.

I hope the power shifts this offseasons more though after missing the playoffs again. I think even the Reirden firing was hard.

This would be a pretty sad reality and would really make me wonder why Dubas even wanted this job but it's entirely possible. People laughed at the idea for years that Sullivan essentially runs this team... seems kinda obvious, these days. If not in name then certainly functionally.

I also suspect that the Reirden firing was really hard and had a lot of pushback. That's just pathetic and should make everyone pretty mad.

 

[SomeDude]

Dubas also deserves a lot more criticism for the unforced error of the Graves contract.

In a summer where we needed everything to go right, that was the official final nail in any chance this current version of the Pens had of maybe not sucking so much.

Its his Jack Johnson moment that we’re going to have to pay to get out of either with assets or cap space from a buy out.

 

[Darren McCord]

Hextall was made GM on 2/9/2021 and re-signed Carter on 1/26/2022

Kyle Dubas was hired 6/1/2023.

Hextall was hired mid season which makes it weirded. Using the dates means nothing. He got a run and a about a full year before people started to get upset. Then a second run before people complained. Then a third run before the media turned on him.

Dubas just finished his first run.

Dubas even wanted this job

7 years of a lot of money. He will stuff his ears with cash to block out the noise.

Gm's don't care as much about the team as the fans. They care about paychecks

 

[Turin]

People desperately want to punt Malkin to wing but then put up guys like Chandler Stephenson as who they'd use to replace him lol

Because the point isn’t to find a better Center but to make life easier for Malkin

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't know if he can fire Sullivan. He would be going against an army to do it. He might actually be fired before Sullivan TBH. I think Hextall had the same problem.

FSG, The Core and Sullivan truly run this team. Sullivan being named to the USA head coach isn't going to help either. The US NHL props him up like Canada propped up Babcock for so long.

I hope the power shifts this offseasons more though after missing the playoffs again. I think even the Reirden firing was hard.

Why are we making so many excuses for Kyle Dubas?

This is the same shit people used to do for Mike Sullivan..

Dubas has done exactly what he did in Toronto here. He's been unable to fill out the team's depth, he's locked us into multiple year deals, he has no plan.

 

[SomeDude]

Dubas just finished his first run.

Which means we’ve got about 6 more years until Josh Yohe starts to wonder if maybe this guy isn’t the wonder boy genius he is supposed to be and tells Pens fans they should be upset.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hextall was hired mid season which makes it weirded. Using the dates means nothing. He got a run and a about a full year before people started to get upset. Then a second run before people complained. Then a third run before the media turned on him.

Dubas just finished his first run.

Okay. Dubas' first run sucked and I have no reason to believe his next run will be any better given the fact he's been a mediocre, overrated GM for years in Toronto prior to coming here.

 

[Darren McCord]

Dubas also deserves a lot more criticism for the unforced error of the Graves contract.

In a summer where we needed everything to go right, that was the official final nail in any chance this current version of the Pens had of maybe not sucking so much.

Its his Jack Johnson moment that we’re going to have to pay to get out of either with assets or cap space from a buy out.

Ya the deal was bad but Graves hasn't hit Johnson territory yet and I am hoping he bounces back. He was still a + 10 on the year averaging 18 min.

Johnson was -4 his first year and took more PIM.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Because the point isn’t to find a better Center but to make life easier for Malkin

Moving Malkin from center at least in the past hasn't actually made his life easier, though.

I'm game but it's gotta be the right guy. He either needs raw talent or a guy that can make room for him. Or both. I'm not convinced the team gives a shit about helping him either way. "Mitigate" sure... help? I dunno.

 

[Darren McCord]

Okay. Dubas' first run sucked and I have no reason to believe his next run will be any better given the fact he's been a mediocre, overrated GM for years in Toronto prior to coming here.

Won't argue but I'll give him one 2 months to change my mind. I am hoping he changes philosophy. It is something Hextall never did. If he doesn't and doubles down this summer I will agree he is worse.

 

[Gurglesons]

Moving Malkin from center at least in the past hasn't actually made his life easier, though.

I'm game but it's gotta be the right guy. He either needs raw talent or a guy that can make room for him. Or both. I'm not convinced the team gives a shit about helping him either way. "Mitigate" sure... help? I dunno.

Moving Malkin to the wing is so dumb it’s probably something Mike Sullivan would do.

 

[SomeDude]

Ya the deal was bad but Graves hasn't hit Johnson territory yet and I am hoping he bounces back. He was still a + 10 on the year averaging 18 min.

Johnson was -4 his first year and took more PIM.

He was maybe not as bad as JJ but his contract is also 1.5% of the cap higher than JJ’s was. In a flat cap situation where some decent players could hardly even be given away at the deadline that hurt more.

They need to hire an old priest and a young priest to replace Todd to try to bring Graves’ game back from the dead.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Moving Malkin to the wing is so dumb it’s probably something Mike Sullivan would do.

I guess it's not as dumb as blaming him for the powerplay and dumping him on the second unit most of the year, at least. Baby steps, Gurgs.

But hey... split units are a super smart idea and will totally work, guys.

 

[Darren McCord]

He was maybe not as bad as JJ but his contract is also 1.5% of the cap higher than JJ’s was. In a flat cap situation where some decent players could hardly even be given away at the deadline that hurt more.

They need to hire an old priest and a young priest to replace Todd to try to bring Graves’ game back from the dead.

I do think no Todd will help.

Also its not a flat cap anymore and the cap might go up 5%.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

100%, IF...you can furnish that third line with capable wings. I wouldn't want to run "Harkins-Malkin-Acciari". That would be a waste. But as you said, if Sullivan removes his head from his disgusting ego-inflated asshole and you build a third line around actually being productive and having a positive impact on the team, then you absolutely figure out something that works.

Sticking with Stephenson:

DeBrusk-Sid-Rust
DOC-Stephenson-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Yager/Poulin/Puustinen/Koivunen/Pono
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

With Debrusk at $5.5 and Steph at $6mil. POJ at 1.7, promote Poulin, Blomqvist, and Pono - we still have $2.4mil in space which as I discussed prior, would be incredibly smart for us to do. Poolparty is the 13F here.

Let's just say we did move Malkin to 3C I wouldn't actually mind it being used as an offensive zone line with the 2nd line 2C being used more shut down ish.

If we could get Lindholm here and yes he has value to shelter youth in the later future.

DOC Crosby Rust
LW - Lindholm - RW
Bunting - Malkin - Puus / Yager
Puujarvi Poulin Accairi

Trade Eller. Rakell may be the RW for Lindholm. Figure out LW. Doesn't look too bad of a forward group honestly.

Minutes for lines.
18
16
16
10

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Guys... you're talking good sense but this team doesn't PRACTICE good sense.

IF they were to put Malkin at 3C he'd just get buried and get stuck with like Acciari and Harkins or something similar. You know it... I know it.

EDIT: Which... ya know what... who cares, really. I'm just kinda in it for the lols at this point.