Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[PensFutures]

Because the prospects aren't great in my opinion.

I dont disagree. But I dont have much faith in the org's drafting or development. So maybe getting a couple scratch offs someone else bought isnt the worst strategy? I honestly do think if the Pens prospect pool wasnt so bare, they push to get 1 "premium" asset for Jake instead of 3 or 4 meh.

Why are we sure two of these guys will see NHL time, exactly?

The same reason Michel Sivek did...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Everything I say is moronic according to you and SEALBound lol. I wish I had the insight and hockey analysis skills of two people who consistently have defended the Penguins moves over the last few years then when they look bad use the "well I can change my opinion, man".

My point with the players that you've listed is that yes they look good if you drafted them with a 2nd round pick, but we didn't. We moved Jake Guentzel for them. Getting a bunch of "hey these 2nd round players look good for where they were took" is not what I wanted in a return for Jake Guentzel. I wanted a 1st, a decent, young roster player that helped with our cap situation, and maybe one of these scratch off prospects.

A 1st is always a better trade asset regardless of the impact.

A player like Bunting to me is a negative asset. He's an average middle six guy, making middle six money. He had a few good weeks here and he does bring some skills we need, but I don't see it as a win.

What difference does it make for whether they were the Penguins 2nd or Hurricanes 2nds? It makes no difference.

They traded Guentzel for basically Bunting, 3 mid 2nds and a 4th, with 2 mid 2nds and the 4th being swapped out for prospects picked at that spot that have been progressing really well for where they were drafted. Bunting, Koivunen, Lucius and pick #27 is effectively the same value as Bunting, Koivunen, Lucius, Ponomarev and pick #44.

 

[Gurglesons]

What difference does it make for whether they were the Penguins 2nd or Hurricanes 2nds? It makes no difference.

They traded Guentzel for basically Bunting, 3 mid 2nds and a 4th, with 2 mid 2nds and the 4th being swapped out for prospects picked at that spot that have been progressing really well for where they were drafted. Bunting, Koivunen, Lucius and pick #27 is effectively the same value as Bunting, Koivunen, Lucius, Ponomarev and pick #44.

The moment Bunting was added to the trade and what should've been a 1st historically was a 2nd is when it was considered a loss for me.

We took on cap. We didn't get a legitimate NHL ready prospect. We didn't get a 1st.

You can spin it how you want, but we basically did not get anything I would've wanted in a Guentzel trade.

If we had settled for a 1st and Bunting, but got Morrow or a similar top five guy in their system, I'm probably fine with the deal.

If we had gotten a 2nd, Drury and Koviunen, I'd get it, because we took a hit on the return by getting a younger NHL ready player who has a low cost deal and RFA status.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The moment Bunting was added to the trade and what should've been a 1st historically was a 2nd is when it was considered a loss for me.

We took on cap. We didn't get a legitimate NHL ready prospect. We didn't get a 1st.

You can spin it how you want, but we basically did not get anything I would've wanted in a Guentzel trade.

If we had settled for a 1st and Bunting, but got Morrow or a similar top five guy in their system, I'm probably fine with the deal.

If we had gotten a 2nd, Drury and Koviunen, I'd get it, because we took a hit on the return by getting a younger NHL ready player who has a low cost deal.

So what makes you mad about the deal is that they got Ponomarev instead of Drury (who most Canes fans will say are pretty damn similar) or they got Koivunen instead of another top-5 guy in their system (who most Canes fans will say was a top-5 guy in their system)?

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'm just glad we got another potential Noel Accairi.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

Bunting looks great because we had a couple great weeks. Rakell did too. Smith looked like an amazing addition the first month.

Let’s see what happens from there.

Smith was old, but he fit well with Malkin for a month, as you said. His problem is he just doesn't want to play here.

Rakell had a good season, not just weeks. I expect him to bounce back, unless he gets traded.

Bunting provides a style we are missing. Someone to go in front of the net that also has some decent hands. I did post that he was getting "Sullified" after his first few games, before the win streak. It's very possible we hate Bunting after a few months.

Honestly, if we start focusing on player failures in Pittsburgh, then we need to start talking about Sully.....again!

 

[SEALBound]

Everything I say is moronic according to you and SEALBound lol. I wish I had the insight and hockey analysis skills of two people who consistently have defended the Penguins moves over the last few years then when they look bad use the "well I can change my opinion, man".

My point with the players that you've listed is that yes they look good if you drafted them with a 2nd round pick, but we didn't. We moved Jake Guentzel for them. Getting a bunch of "hey these 2nd round players look good for where they were took" is not what I wanted in a return for Jake Guentzel. I wanted a 1st, a decent, young roster player that helped with our cap situation, and maybe one of these scratch off prospects.

A 1st is always a better trade asset regardless of the impact.

A player like Bunting to me is a negative asset. He's an average middle six guy, making middle six money. He had a few good weeks here and he does bring some skills we need, but I don't see it as a win.

It gets exhausting having to put you in your place so frequently. You would think that you would gain a modicum of sense or reasonableness over so many years here but...here we are.

Why are we sure two of these guys will see NHL time, exactly?

Pono has already seen NHL time. Carolina fans said that he would have been playing over Drury if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Koivunen hasn't seen NHL time yet, but we hope he does. That's the hope for literally any prospect (that isn't a bonafide NHL player like Bunting) that you get in a return. How are we sure that Morrow, Nadeau, etc will see NHL time exactly?

Trade Targets: Decision time looms for Maple Leafs and Mitch Marner

Will the Leafs and Marner work together on an extension – or a ticket out of Toronto?

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Is there a way we could convert #12 into #4? Lol

Man, Necas would be a great get. But I think for the reason that we would want him, several others will too. I'm surprised he's not the top target, honestly. The contract situation will be much more favorable with Necas vs Marner. I'd take Necas come playoff time too, at the moment.

One name on that list that I think could be a low-key great move for us (IF we could find a way to pull it off) is Morgan Frost. He screams "fresh start" to me. Course I like a lot of names on that list:

Marner, Ehlers, Frost, Kaliyev, Kakko, Mangiapane, even Dvorak. I think all of those guys could provide us with value provided we can ship a guy who doesn't fit with us out.

 

[Gurglesons]

So what makes you mad about the deal is that they got Ponomarev instead of Drury (who most Canes fans will say are pretty damn similar) or they got Koivunen instead of another top-5 guy in their system (who most Canes fans will say was a top-5 guy in their system)?

What makes me mad about the deal is we got no sure bets in the system.

Most Canes fans do not say Koivunen was a top-5 guy. You are blatantly adjusting a few of their fans saying "they feel" he is a top five guy.

I don't feel like wasting time searching around for multiple prospect rankings, but this ranking from the Athletic has Koviunen and Pono as 6th and 7th in their system.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5270519/2024/02/18/hurricanes-nhl-prospect-pool-rankings-2024/

It's a standard quantity over quality trade. If you want to say that was as good as it gets with Jake Guentzel, feel free.

I strongly disagree especially considering the "big names" in Lindholm and Monahan both got a 1st.

It gets exhausting having to put you in your place so frequently. You would think that you would gain a modicum of sense or reasonableness over so many years here but...here we are.

Weird how someone who is advocating for "discussion on the discussion board" as always is actually focused on "putting people in their place."

You are consistently ridiculed on multiple areas of this forum. You've got a sub 50% like rate. You're calling the kettle black here.

I honestly do not care about your opinion or what you think of mine. If you want to talk hockey I'm happy to talk about it, but your hockey takes are that of a handicapped and blind boomer.

 

[Gurglesons]

Smith was old, but he fit well with Malkin for a month, as you said. His problem is he just doesn't want to play here.

Rakell had a good season, not just weeks. I expect him to bounce back, unless he gets traded.

Bunting provides a style we are missing. Someone to go in front of the net that also has some decent hands. I did post that he was getting "Sullified" after his first few games, before the win streak. It's very possible we hate Bunting after a few months.

Honestly, if we start focusing on player failures in Pittsburgh, then we need to start talking about Sully.....again!

To me they are all similar players.

And I think I would've been fine with us signing Bunting last offseason. The issue I have is that we obviously allowed value to be shifted in the trade for Jake Guentzel to acquire him.

I hope he succeeds here and will always root for players that wear the black and gold.

 

[SEALBound]

Weird how someone who is advocating for "discussion on the discussion board" as always is actually focused on "putting people in their place."

You are consistently ridiculed on multiple areas of this forum. You've got a sub 50% like rate. You're calling the kettle black here.

I honestly do not care about your opinion or what you think of mine. If you want to talk hockey I'm happy to talk about it, but your hockey takes are that of a handicapped and blind boomer.

Well then actually talk hockey. You're regurgitating the same temper tantrum bullshit as Day 1.

Wanna compare MySpace friends counts next? Again, another child-like temper tantrum with you lashing out when you're cornered and confronted with your bullshit. And again, pretty par for the course. I don't know why I would expect any more or less out of you.

Log off and take a walk. Or a nap. You're really falling off a cliff here.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well then actually talk hockey. You're regurgitating the same temper tantrum bullshit as Day 1.

Wanna compare MySpace friends counts next? Again, another child-like temper tantrum is lashing out when you're cornered and confronted with your bullshit. And again, pretty par for the course. I don't know why I would expect any more or less out of you.

Log off and take a walk. Or a nap. You're really falling off a cliff here.

I am trying to talk hockey.

You asked for evidence, I provided multiple respected insiders who gave references to past trades and what the expectation was for the Guentzel trade.

You're the one continously making it personal.

I don't care about likes and I still somehow have accrued more than you who on this very page is golden knightning your takes and how you need to come in and consistently prove me wrong.

I honestly don't care what you think about my posts and will stop responding to you since this is going nowhere.

 

[Pancakes]

It's a standard quantity over quality trade. If you want to say that was as good as it gets with Jake Guentzel, feel free.

Dubas basically gambled on quantity rather than one premium prospect. Given how barren our system is and was I get the temptation to add a bunch of guys rather than go all in on one guy.

I do also wonder if getting the one top guy was even ever on the table. Waddell intimated with his comments that the Pens were never getting top top prospects for a rental. So even if Dubas set out to do that I don't know that Carolina pays that ask. Maybe someone else steps up and does that if Carolina backs out though.

At the end of the day if even one of the guys we got pans out as a good player it's a win of a deal. We won't know that for another two three years probably.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dubas basically gambled on quantity rather than one premium prospect. Given how barren our system is and was I get the temptation to add a bunch of guys rather than go all in on one guy.

I do also wonder if getting the one top guy was even ever on the table. Waddell intimated with his comments that the Pens were never getting top top prospects for a rental. So even if Dubas set out to do that I don't know that Carolina pays that ask. Maybe someone else steps up and does that if Carolina backs out though.

At the end of the day if even one of the guys we got pans out as a good player it's a win of a deal. We won't know that for another two three years probably.

Most of the guys will either be NHL players in this or next or washed out.

I understand Dubas can't force teams to trade with him, but I don't see how it isn't incredibly suspicious to some that he targeted a former Leaf in Bunting.

JR vibes in terms of focusing on a player he knew and wanted and then building the deal from there without fully devoting himself to value.

 

[Pancakes]

Most of the guys will either be NHL players in this or next or washed out.

That's true but it will take longer than that to know if they are any good. Rust in his first nhl year was a much different guy than Rust two three years after that.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's true but it will take longer than that to know if they are any good. Rust in his first nhl year was a much different guy than Rust two three years after that.

Rust is a completely different player set than Koivunen and Ponomarev.

Well, I guess you could say he is Ponomarev with actual skating ability.

 

[SEALBound]

I am trying to talk hockey.

You asked for evidence, I provided multiple respected insiders who gave references to past trades and what the expectation was for the Guentzel trade.

You're the one continously making it personal.

I don't care about likes and I still somehow have accrued more than you who on this very page is golden knightning your takes and how you need to come in and consistently prove me wrong.

I honestly don't care what you think about my posts and will stop responding to you since this is going nowhere.

None of which had ANY bearing on anything. You keep insisting that Dubas actively chose quantity over quality when you have ZERO (repeat f***ING ZERO) evidence that there were ANY other trades offered that provided it. I ask for evidence of the better offers and you say "ummm...well here's speculation from these guys..." Again, complete bullshit on your part.

You clearly care about likes and post counts because you repeatedly bring up during these discussion when people call you out.

Don't want people waffle stomping your bullshit down the drain, stop trying to dominate the conversations with your bullshit. Especially when it's the exact same bullshit posts from months ago.

 

[Gurglesons]

None of which had ANY bearing on anything. You keep insisting that Dubas actively chose quantity over quality when you have ZERO (repeat f***ING ZERO) evidence that there were ANY other trades offered that provided it. I ask for evidence of the better offers and you say "ummm...well here's speculation from these guys..." Again, complete bullshit on your part.

You clearly care about likes and post counts because you repeatedly bring up during these discussion when people call you out.

Don't want people waffle stomping your bullshit down the drain, stop trying to dominate the conversations with your bullshit. Especially when it's the exact same bullshit posts from months ago.

Feel free to ignore me. Thank you.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What makes me mad about the deal is we got no sure bets in the system.

Most Canes fans do not say Koivunen was a top-5 guy. You are blatantly adjusting a few of their fans saying "they feel" he is a top five guy.

I don't feel like wasting time searching around for multiple prospect rankings, but this ranking from the Athletic has Koviunen and Pono as 6th and 7th in their system.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5270519/2024/02/18/hurricanes-nhl-prospect-pool-rankings-2024/

It's a standard quantity over quality trade. If you want to say that was as good as it gets with Jake Guentzel, feel free.

I strongly disagree especially considering the "big names" in Lindholm and Monahan both got a 1st.

So again, you're mad that they got both the 6th and 7th ranked prospect rather than their 4th ranked prospect?

There isn't a single prospect the Penguins could have gotten that would be a "sure thing". Even prospects like Nadeau or Blake aren't a "sure thing" because performing in the NCAA doesn't mean success in the NHL. Both Nadeau (5'10" and 161 lbs) and Blake (5'10" and 152 lbs) are comically undersized and have massive bust potential if they can't handle the physicality of the NHL. Their upsides are likely higher than Koivunen and Ponomarev but that doesn't make them a "sure bet".

The only Canes prospects that is definitely a "sure bet" is Nikishin, who probably won't be traded period. Morrow is close, but he has defensive issues that may outweigh his offense if he doesn't produce enough.

 

[Pancakes]

Rust is a completely different player set than Koivunen and Ponomarev.

Well, I guess you could say he is Ponomarev with actual skating ability.

Not directly comparing them just saying that it's not just whether a guy makes the nhl or not. They might make it soon and be just OK and then a few years later blossom into something good.

 

[Gurglesons]

So again, you're mad that they got both the 6th and 7th ranked prospect rather than their 4th ranked prospect?

There isn't a single prospect the Penguins could have gotten that would be a "sure thing". Even prospects like Nadeau or Blake aren't a "sure thing" because performing in the NCAA doesn't mean success in the NHL. Both Nadeau (5'10" and 161 lbs) and Blake (5'10" and 152 lbs) are comically undersized and have massive bust potential if they can't handle the physicality of the NHL. Their upsides are likely higher than Koivunen and Ponomarev but that doesn't make them a "sure bet".

The only Canes prospects that is definitely a "sure bet" is Nikishin, who probably won't be traded period. Morrow is close, but he has defensive issues that may outweigh his offense if he doesn't produce enough.

Yes.

I disagree with your other takes.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

To me they are all similar players.

And I think I would've been fine with us signing Bunting last offseason. The issue I have is that we obviously allowed value to be shifted in the trade for Jake Guentzel to acquire him.

I hope he succeeds here and will always root for players that wear the black and gold.

This I agree with (as I said prior).

I do agree that if Dubas hadn't valued Bunting as high as he did, he probably could have negotiated a 1st instead of a 2nd, but my original point was this isn't a Carolina 2nd. In reality, this is something in between a 1st and a 2nd from Carolina, so it's not as bad as the stigma.

Fine...we can disagree that he could have done better, but Dubas' trade for EK was magic, so it's not like the guy can't wheel and deal.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not directly comparing them just saying that it's not just whether a guy makes the nhl or not. They might make it soon and be just OK and then a few years later blossom into something good.

Bryan Rust was in the league and played 40+ games at his 23-24 season.

 

[Gurglesons]

This I agree with (as I said prior).

I do agree that if Dubas hadn't valued Bunting as high as he did, he probably could have negotiated a 1st instead of a 2nd, but my original point was this isn't a Carolina 2nd. In reality, this is something in between a 1st and a 2nd from Carolina, so it's not as bad as the stigma.

Fine...we can disagree that he could have done better, but Dubas' trade for EK was magic, so it's not like the guy can't wheel and deal.

I don't agree with this. It's a mid 2nd round pick. It's better than nothing, but I'd prefer the 1st as I said because I think the value of a "1st round pick" regardless of where it's at in trades is much, much more substantial.

 

[Pancakes]

Bryan Rust was in the league and played 40+ games at his 23-24 season.

My point is what a player is when they enter the nhl versus what they are when they reach their prime are two very different things.

 

[Gurglesons]

My point is what a player is when they enter the nhl versus what they are when they reach their prime are two very different things.

My point is we are acting like we added a bunch of 18 year old prospects to our system when in reality the reason Kyle targeted these players out of Carolina is he's hoping they can help extend our window within the next year or two.

If they don't pan out they are likely chopped meat given their contract status very quickly.

I think it's way more likely Michael Bunting is the best player for the Penguins out of this trade which is just poor management.