Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

[Icarium]

I think with the lack of talent and structure in SJ, Karlsson was more or less unchained and free-wheeled last year. Even though he collected 101 pts, he was a -26. So....why do I think there's a "falloff", probably because there is more being required asked of him.

The brain trust in charge of the Penguins is trying to turn Karlsson into Dumoulin and then wonders why it's not working.

 

[Pens x]

Why are people only now suddenly criticizing Dubas? The dude had a horrendous off season. We now know why Shanahan had to babysit him.

He built a team alongside a jackass coach that hasnt won a playoff series in six years.

Also, those homeboys that showered FSG with compliments look mighty foolish.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Why are people only now suddenly criticizing Dubas? The dude had a horrendous off season. We now know why Shanahan had to babysit him.

He built a team alongside a jackass coach that hasnt won a playoff series in six years.

Also, those homeboys that showered FSG with compliments look mighty foolish.

I'm pissed at the Graves deal, that's for sure, the EK move wasn't bad at all in terms of what it costed us for players like Petry and Granlund to force a team to take them in return. The bottom 6 was ruined by Hextall.

Jarry I actually wanted gone, glad he signed him!

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Why are people only now suddenly criticizing Dubas? The dude had a horrendous off season. We now know why Shanahan had to babysit him.

He built a team alongside a jackass coach that hasnt won a playoff series in six years.

Also, those homeboys that showered FSG with compliments look mighty foolish.

You have been here long enough to have seen many criticizing him, some since his hiring.

I do agree with the sentiment that all of these "issues" are a bit less meaningful now than in the past because the real issue is that the stars are simply older and can no longer carry, and make up for, mistakes.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You have been here long enough to have seen many criticizing him, some since his hiring.

I do agree with the sentiment that all of these "issues" are a bit less meaningful now than in the past because the real issue is that the stars are simply older and can no longer carry, and make up for, mistakes.

Crosby, Malkin and Letang make a combined ~21M and are old. Rust, Rakell, Smith and Graves make ~21M and are "not old."

Which group is the anchor, really?

Getting a little tired of this narrative. The old guys are playing up to their contracts. It isn't their fault that the team has still been built around the idea of them not just carrying their line but the whole damned team while they are pushin' 40. Like yeah... players lose their edge as they get older and time is undefeated etc. etc. But simply saying "the biggest problem by far with this team is age and nothing that can be done matters because of this" is a vast misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The brain trust in charge of the Penguins is trying to turn Karlsson into Dumoulin and then wonders why it's not working.

Defensive specialists should be shot into the sun, Looney Tunes style. Ruining the game.

And I am not kidding.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Defensive specialists should be shot into the sun, Looney Tunes style. Ruining the game.

And I am not kidding.

You're mostly right.

But I'd dig just a tad deeper and posit that those DEMANDING that they have defensive specialists on the team are the root of the problem.

This league is horribly overcoached. And by a bunch of twits, to boot.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You have been here long enough to have seen many criticizing him, some since his hiring.

I do agree with the sentiment that all of these "issues" are a bit less meaningful now than in the past because the real issue is that the stars are simply older and can no longer carry, and make up for, mistakes.

The issue is we burnt all our capital bringing in Kapanen, Brassard, Zucker, Reaves and Granlund. So those picks are not here and neither are the players.

Oh also, that Erik Karlsson is dogshit as a PPQB.

 

[Icarium]

No star can carry a team that insists on playing hockey that isn't all suited to its roster. Yes, if Sid and Geno were younger, the team would be better, of course but it would still be a colossus with feet of clay because it's playing a deeply stupid brand of hockey and no amount of individual brilliance can make up for that. Especially in a league with so much parity where refs try so hard to help scrubs stop superstars.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think people saying "the primary issue with this team is they're old" and "the primary issue with this team is that the supporting cast is not good enough" are saying basically the same things. The problem is that the core is old and worse than what they once were, and the support cast is not nearly good enough to make up for that. Both are true. It's not really a blame game type of situation here, it's just rightfully pointing out the situation of their team.

Malkin's a 65 point 2C at this point. Crosby still a PPG 1C, but a "PPG 1C" at this point only has him as a top-30 player in the NHL today, not a top-10 player. Letang is still a good top pair D, but he's not even close to a top-10 defenseman anymore like he used to be. They need a substantially better supporting cast compared to what they used to need to make a competitive team today.

No star can carry a team that insists on playing hockey that isn't all suited to its roster. Yes, if Sid and Geno were younger, the team would be better, of course but it would still be a colossus with feet of clay because it's playing a deeply stupid brand of hockey and no amount of individual brilliance can make up for that. Especially in a league with so much parity where refs try so hard to help scrubs stop superstars.

Why was this team successful with Sullivan's system 5 years ago but not today?

Yes, the team today is not suited to play Sullivan's system anymore. But to say that a younger Penguins team wouldn't be successful with Sullivan's system, when a younger Penguins team was successful with Sullivan's system in the past, seems like a bizarre thing to say.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think people saying "the primary issue with this team is they're old" and "the primary issue with this team is that the supporting cast is not good enough" are saying basically the same things. The problem is that the core is old and worse than what they once were, and the support cast is not nearly good enough to make up for that. Both are true. It's not really a blame game type of situation here, it's just rightfully pointing out the situation of their team.

Malkin's a 65 point 2C at this point. Crosby still a PPG 1C, but a "PPG 1C" at this point only has him as a top-30 player in the NHL today, not a top-10 player. Letang is still a good top pair D, but he's not even close to a top-10 defenseman anymore like he used to be. They need a substantially better supporting cast compared to what they used to need to make a competitive team today.

I agree with all that but throwing your hands up and saying "bah they shouldn't even try because they're old" is dumb. It really, really didn't have to be this way. If the team would pull itself out of it's self-imposed lethargy it still doesn't.

NOBODY outside of a tiny handful of diehards thinks this is a SC caliber team no matter what you do. But they should absolutely be a playoff team.

 

[Icarium]

Yes, the team today is not suited to play Sullivan's system anymore. But to say that a younger Penguins team wouldn't be successful with Sullivan's system, when a younger Penguins team was successful with Sullivan's system in the past, seems like a bizarre thing to say.

Because back then the team's go to strategy wasn't wristers from the blue line with no traffic. And it had an actual power play that could score actual goals and probably received actual coaching to achieve that. You know, little details like that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't seem to remember the Penguins back in the day militantly keeping the play along the walls for 90% of the game nor do I remember them trying to exclusively try for a backdoor tip ins from the side of the net every single offensive possession. But I'm old and memory is a tricky thing so hey.

 

[Darren McCord]

Why was this team successful with Sullivan's system 5 years ago but not today?

Yes, the team today is not suited to play Sullivan's system anymore. But to say that a younger Penguins team wouldn't be successful with Sullivan's system, when a younger Penguins team was successful with Sullivan's system in the past, seems like a bizarre thing to say.

Because the league changed and got faster. Sullivan system worked back then because it was new. Now in days his system is outdated and overrated because there are better versions of it

Also 17 was Sid, Geno, Fleury and Murray. They did not win because of Sullivan system.

 

[Pens x]

You have been here long enough to have seen many criticizing him, some since his hiring.

I do agree with the sentiment that all of these "issues" are a bit less meaningful now than in the past because the real issue is that the stars are simply older and can no longer carry, and make up for, mistakes.

People here seem to blame Sully for everything, while leaving Harry Potter alone for the most part. Dude constructed a bottom six to Sully’s liking - that is on him for catering to an idiot that has not done **** in 7 years.

Shame on Dubas for transforming the Penguins into Sully’s wet dream.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because back then the team's go to strategy wasn't wristers from the blue line with no traffic. And it had an actual power play that could score actual goals and probably received actual coaching to achieve that. You know, little details like that.

Is it "Sullivan has made no changes to the system and still thinks an older team can play the same way it did in 2017" or "Sullivan has actively made his system worse and his new system won't work"? Because the first one is what most people argue, and one I tend to agree with. You're arguing more than he has made his once successful system clearly worse and no one could have success in his new system.

I don't seem to remember the Penguins back in the day militantly keeping the play along the walls for 90% of the game nor do I remember them trying to exclusively try for a backdoor tip ins from the side of the net every single offensive possession. But I'm old and memory is a tricky thing so hey.

Honestly this is something I do recall them doing a lot in the past.

I agree with all that but throwing your hands up and saying "bah they shouldn't even try because they're old" is dumb. It really, really didn't have to be this way. If the team would pull itself out of it's self-imposed lethargy it still doesn't.

NOBODY outside of a tiny handful of diehards thinks this is a SC caliber team no matter what you do. But they should absolutely be a playoff team.

I think Sullivan should be fired regardless of what status you view this team to be in, whether that be "legitimate playoff team that is held back by coaching" or "old team past their prime that also has a stale coach". But I do think there's a legitimate debate to be had for whether "absolutely a playoff team" is something this team should be pursuing if they realistically have no chance at winning a cup again.

I think there's a legitimate argument that the "definitely make the playoffs but won't make it past round 2 at best" upside of this team isn't worth going for at this point.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think Sullivan should be fired regardless of what status you view this team to be in, whether that be "legitimate playoff team that is held back by coaching" or "old team past their prime that also has a stale coach". But I do think there's a legitimate debate to be had for whether "absolutely a playoff team" is something this team should be pursuing if they realistically have no chance at winning a cup again.

I think there's a legitimate argument that the "definitely make the playoffs but won't make it past round 2 at best" upside of this team isn't worth going for at this point.

Meh. You make the playoffs and I'm not saying ANYTHING can happen but we've seen way weirder. What's wrong with making it a goal in the core's latter years to just make the post season and roll the dice? Maybe their goaltender gets hot. Maybe Crosby heats up or the team depth wakes up at the right time. We see it every year.

Besides playoff revenue is a thing and does matter. Obviously I'd love to see the boys win one more Cup but there are perfectly valid reasons for simply wanting to make the post season. Crosby at the very least will be here regardless so what the hell.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Dubi is in a tough spot because every metric besides the PP shows that the Pens are easily a playoff team and he can't do the one thing to fix the issue because FSG extended Sully before hiring him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Meh. You make the playoffs and I'm not saying ANYTHING can happen but we've seen way weirder. What's wrong with making it a goal in the core's latter years to just make the post season and roll the dice? Maybe their goaltender gets hot. Maybe Crosby heats up or the team depth wakes up at the right time. We see it every year.

Besides playoff revenue is a thing and does matter. Obviously I'd love to see the boys win one more Cup but there are perfectly valid reasons for simply wanting to make the post season. Crosby at the very least will be here regardless so what the hell.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, but I also don't think they should be trying to spend assets to just get that. I think the idea that both Hextall and Dubas had of "building the prospect pool while keeping the team competitive" is actually the correct thing this team should be doing. But let's say they fired Sullivan but still didn't get corrected enough to make the playoffs, is it worth trying to do anything further to just get them in the playoffs?

I think their goal should be to just make the playoffs to see what happens, while their roster moves focus mostly on adding picks and prospects. But it's very easy to see situations where those ideas conflict, to the point where you have to question which one of those two you want to go for more.

With years like this year, it's an easy decision to just sell off rentals and not buy. In years where the team goes on a heater and is sitting 2nd in the division, it's very easy to decide to go for the playoffs and see what can happen. But what about years where they're borderline on making the playoffs and it's not clear whether any additions can put them over the top? I'd argue most of their years going forward are going to be that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, but I also don't think they should be trying to spend assets to just get that. I think the idea that both Hextall and Dubas had of "building the prospect pool while keeping the team competitive" is actually the correct thing this team should be doing. But let's say they fired Sullivan but still didn't get corrected enough to make the playoffs, is it worth trying to do anything further to just get them in the playoffs?

I think their goal should be to just make the playoffs to see what happens, while their roster moves focus mostly on adding picks and prospects. But it's very easy to see situations where those ideas conflict, to the point where you have to question which one of those two you want to go for more.

With years like this year, it's an easy decision to just sell off rentals and not buy. In years where the team goes on a heater and is sitting 2nd in the division, it's very easy to decide to go for the playoffs and see what can happen. But what about years where they're borderline on making the playoffs and it's not clear whether any additions can put them over the top? I'd argue most of their years going forward are going to be that.

As long as Sid is here you just have to go for it. It's the devil deal at the end of any all-time player's career. I thought we were all savvy to this?

There will be time to suck (even worse) and collect futures, don't worry.

I know this... their half in/half out thing they are trying the last few years doesn't seem to be working. So just friggin' pull the plug on this stale-ass coach, wheel and deal as hard as you can and give it one last REAL try. Maybe that's just me... fair enough. I just feel like they deserve it and not... whatever this is.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Dubi is in a tough spot because every metric besides the PP shows that the Pens are easily a playoff team and he can't do the one thing to fix the issue because FSG extended Sully before hiring him.

I largely agree.

But he could fire Reirden.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I largely agree.

But he could fire Reirden.

True but who knows how much of the PP is Todd being a loser and Sully letting the players do whatever they want. Probably a healthy dose of both.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As long as Sid is here you just have to go for it. It's the devil deal at the end of any all-time player's career. I thought we were all savvy to this?

There will be time to suck (even worse) and collect futures, don't worry.

I know this... their half in/half out thing they are trying the last few years doesn't seem to be working. So just friggin' pull the plug on this stale-ass coach, wheel and deal as hard as you can and give it one last REAL try. Maybe that's just me... fair enough. I just feel like they deserve it and not... whatever this is.

The thing is, I don't even think they've really been doing that. If you look at what Hextall and Dubas has done, it has been far more "add win now help" than "build for the future". It just seems more balanced because it's not the insane shit that JR did.

I think the issue in their recent years has been much more a shitty GM than a bad focus from the GM. It's not that their "build for the future while letting the team compete now" strategy is bad, it's that how they went about it (sticking with Sullivan, trading a 2nd for Granlund, giving Graves a huge deal, ect) was just really shitty.

It's very easy to say this as an armchair GM who has no qualifications, but I honestly believe that the "build for the future while letting the team compete now" is completely doable. I just think the Penguins GMs have done a shitty job at it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The thing is, I don't even think they've really been doing that. If you look at what Hextall and Dubas has done, it has been far more "add win now help" than "build for the future". It just seems more balanced because it's not the insane shit that JR did.

I think the issue in their recent years has been much more a shitty GM than a bad focus from the GM. It's not that their "build for the future while letting the team compete now" strategy is bad, it's that how they went about it (sticking with Sullivan, trading a 2nd for Granlund, giving Graves a huge deal, ect) was just really shitty.

It's very easy to say this as an armchair GM who has no qualifications, but I honestly believe that the "build for the future while letting the team compete now" is completely doable. I just think the Penguins GMs have done a shitty job at it.

I think if they had planned better starting around when JR took his ball and stomped home then they could be doing that. If they had been less kid-gloves with Sullivan and actually warmed his seat up years back while planning on the core getting older and surrounding them with REAL help as opposed to a gaggle of tweeners, projects and flights of fancy on defense that never worked out then they would be gliding along that path, now. So I agree!

But they didn't. And I guess I'm just not ready to see them totally quit on Crosby yet. Even if the SMART part of my brain says they are sunk. But they are ONLY sunk I'm still convinced not because they are old but because they refuse to do really anything at all except their little Baghdad Bob act while time slips away. Even though they screwed up years ago by not getting ahead of these issues... it doesn't excuse them shrugging their shoulders, now.

 

[SEALBound]

Defensive specialists should be shot into the sun, Looney Tunes style. Ruining the game.

And I am not kidding.

I would suggest that a couple more offensive-minded men wouldn't be the worst thing. However, I will point out that when our offensive men get caught because of bad defensive reads, pinches, etc. - it absolutely infuriates the board.

Like, sure we want the "101pt Karlsson" here but we largely ignore the -26 +/- rating. So maybe the question should be - what's the happy medium? And what NHL player would be a good example of what we are looking at?