PC Building Guide and Discussion #14

[PeteWorrell]

Best CPUs for gaming. AMD have adjusted their pricing while Intel have not which leaves them in the dust.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Best CPUs for gaming. AMD have adjusted their pricing while Intel have not which leaves them in the dust.

Intel is completely f***ing lost.

Like, this is prime AMD Bulldozer territory in terms of being lost.

 

[PeteWorrell]

Intel is completely f***ing lost.

Like, this is prime AMD Bulldozer territory in terms of being lost.

That's because Intel insists on doing everything in-house. AMD and Nvidia went towards TSMC as they have the best technology. Meanwhile, Intel have been lagging behind and their new architecture keeps being delayed.

Their answer has been to keep pumping more voltage in their chips so that they can hit bigger numbers making them more and more inefficient. The bigger problem is that now their high-end chips are unstable as the insane amounts of voltage are destroying them prematurely. It's just a mess.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

That's because Intel insists on doing everything in-house. AMD and Nvidia went towards TSMC as they have the best technology. Meanwhile, Intel have been lagging behind and their new architecture keeps being delayed.

Their answer has been to keep pumping more voltage in their chips so that they can hit bigger numbers making them more and more inefficient. The bigger problem is that now their high-end chips are unstable as the insane amounts of voltage are destroying them prematurely. It's just a mess.

The other problem, I think, is that if they did go TSMC, they can't because I believe they are generally full up for orders, so no way would they be able to take in Intel. Maybe Intel should hire former TSMC manufacture architects or something to help resolve their shit with their factories.

 

[PeteWorrell]

We expect modern CPUs to be one of the most reliable components yet here we are. I bet a lot of motherboards got swapped out because of this issue.

 

[Osprey]

My parents want me to pick out a pre-built to replace my mom's desktop and specifically asked for Dell and Intel. They have no clue about all of the recent issues with Intel or that AMD has been as good or even better for quite a while now. I'm going to have to break it to them and convince them to not buy Dell (who offer almost no AMD systems). I may just end up having to build it for them, myself. I certainly don't mind, but it's nice for me in the long term to not have to be their tech support for every issue and question that they have.

 

[PeteWorrell]

My parents want me to pick out a pre-built to replace my Mom's desktop and specifically asked for Dell and Intel. They have no clue about all of the recent issues with Intel or that AMD has been as good or even better for quite a while now. I'm going to have to break it to them and convince them to not buy Dell (who offer almost no AMD systems). I may just end up having to build it for them, myself. I certainly don't mind, but it's nice for me in the long term to not have to be their tech support for every little issue and question that they have.

There is always the 12th generation if they really want Intel. I doubt they are power users so they won't care if it's the stable 12th generation or the unstable 13th and 14th.

 

[Osprey]

There is always the 12th generation if they really want Intel. I doubt they are power users so they won't care if it's the stable 12th generation or the unstable 13th and 14th.

True, but pre-builts with 12th-gen pretty much aren't being sold anymore. Dell doesn't offer any.

I wonder if I should dare buying her a mini PC, such as from MINISFORUM. I hear that they've gotten really good recently and aren't bad as desktop replacements, as long as you aren't a heavy user (my mom just browses and e-mails).

 

[mouser]

True, but pre-builts with 12th-gen pretty much aren't being sold anymore. Dell doesn't offer any.

I wonder if I should dare buying her a mini PC, such as from MINISFORUM. I hear that they've gotten really good recently and aren't bad as desktop replacements, as long as you aren't a heavy user (my mom just browses and e-mails).

I've purchased a couple of these for relatives who are doing non-graphic intensive tasks. Like browsing, email, ms office, etc. Made sure to get monitors with an accessible vesa mount on the back to screw the mini-PC directly to the back of the monitor. They have a variety of different models, thought this specific model was one of the best values for work not needing a higher end GPU. Recommend picking a monitor with built-in speakers. No separate sound cable necessary--HDMI will carry video and sound.

- Beelink Mini S12, $170 USD
- Gen 12 Intel N-100 four core, 3.4GHz burst
- 16GB mem
- 500GB SSD
- Windows pre-installed w/license

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08XBVXNFP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[Osprey]

I've purchased a couple of these for relatives who are doing non-graphic intensive tasks. Like browsing, email, ms office, etc. Made sure to get monitors with an accessible vesa mount on the back to screw the mini-PC directly to the back of the monitor. They have a variety of different models, thought this specific model was one of the best values for work not needing a higher end GPU. Recommend picking a monitor with built-in speakers. No separate sound cable necessary--HDMI will carry video and sound.

- Beelink Mini S12, $170 USD
- Gen 12 Intel N-100 four core, 3.4GHz burst
- 16GB mem
- 500GB SSD
- Windows pre-installed w/license

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08XBVXNFP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

She'll just re-use her monitor and I want to keep the PC on the desk so that she can access it as she's used to (for pressing the power button, inserting USB drives, etc.), but thanks for mentioning speakers because I didn't notice that some of these don't have a headphone jack in the back. I'd want to get one that does so that she can re-use her speakers (without the cable having to awkwardly connect in the front).

I take it that you haven't heard any complaints about performance, heat or noise? If I were to buy one, it'd be a newer, higher-end model around $500 (because they're willing to spend over $1000 and I don't want to skimp too much and have it give her problems in a few years), and I don't want to spend that much and then realize eventually that I should've just bought her a tower, instead.

 

[mouser]

No issues with noise, heat or performance. I set Windows to timeout sleep and wake on mouse/keyboard so the relatives almost never have to actually touch the mini-PC on the back of the monitor. Only situation would be if the PC lost power requiring a push of the actual power button to turn it on again. One relative isn’t using the extra USB ports at all, the other one I bought a compact powered USB hub to place on the monitor base. Another option would be to get a monitor with an integrated USB hub, many monitors with that feature.

I figure unless you’re doing gaming or video editing / AI most people would be fine with a Celeron CPU and integrated graphics. You can get miniPCs with more powerful CPUs and graphics, but then you’re also increasing the power and heat profiles, which may also increase the noise profile for cooling. Advantages there for not buying the most powerful system if you’re not actually going to make use of the extra power.

 

[PeteWorrell]

Intel shenanigans confirmation from multiple sources. AMD have delayed their new CPUs because quality expectations were not met. Strange times for those that want the latest and greatest.

 

[PeteWorrell]

Disappointing

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I guess since I have a 7700X, if i wanted to upgrade by the end of the year, I might as well just get a 7800X3D.

 

[PeteWorrell]

It's sad because it looks like a cash grab. Selling the same thing in a new package, a new name and at higher pricing that uninformed customers will buy to have the latest and greatest.

 

[Osprey]

It looks like most of the improvements were in power efficiency, so it's only 5% faster at stock settings, but with 40% less power required. That's still impressive, just not that appealing to gamers, who tend to care more about performance. It seems like AMD decided to make this series as power efficient as possible for the non-gamers, though, knowing that gamers would gravitate toward the X3D series, instead. As someone who's waiting for the 9800X3D, I don't have a problem with that, so long as the 9800X3D delivers.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

This 9000 series almost feels like... a full on efficiency refresh of 7000. They spent their entire time getting the power and temps down.

 

[PeteWorrell]

The better power efficiency will be great for overclockers and people that use small form factor builds which is a marginal market segment. I don't otherwise see the point for the average consumer to pay more for the same.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

The better power efficiency will be great for overclockers and people that use small form factor builds which is a marginal market segment. I don't otherwise see the point for the average consumer to pay more for the same.

If the 9800X3D comes out below the end of the year, it can put up 5% better performance over the 7800X3D, comes in at less power and like 15C to 20C load temps less, then I'll probably grab that. I'm going to build in the Louqe Ghost R1 when it gets shipped in October. Going real high end SFF.

 

[Osprey]

I learned of a free, open source tool today that seems amazing for system builders and admins. Simply format a USB drive with Ventoy, copy bootable ISOs anywhere on it, boot from it and select one of the ISOs from a menu. It then mounts and boots it as if you had flashed it to the drive. I just tried it and it works as advertised. This is going to save so much time and juggling by allowing me to have just one USB drive that can boot any ISO (Win11, Win10, Ubuntu, recovery environments, memory/disk checkers, etc.), instead of keeping a drive for each or re-formatting and flashing whenever I want to use or update one. I could've used something like this a long time ago.

Ventoy is the best program for bootable ISOs you've never heard of

Ventoy can save you time and will allow you to boot multiple ISOs from a single USB drive

www.xda-developers.com

 

[PeteWorrell]

Even the supposed better power efficiency isn't even true. Zen 5 really is a big nothing burger.

 

[aleshemsky83]

Even the supposed better power efficiency isn't even true. Zen 5 really is a big nothing burger.

I wont argue the methodology because im not knowledgable enough, but from what I've seen turning on PBO, which is basically auto-overclocking in the BIOS, results in a pretty sizeable boost to performance and power consumption, whereas it pretty much does nothing on zen 4 and prior. Custom software, custom hardware, I think they're just getting overly complex and confusing themselves. They should have just connected a multimeter and measured total system power draw, at the very least as a provably accurate method to crosscheck their work.

Well, I guess I just did argue methodology.

 

[PeteWorrell]

I wont argue the methodology because im not knowledgable enough, but from what I've seen turning on PBO, which is basically auto-overclocking in the BIOS, results in a pretty sizeable boost to performance and power consumption, whereas it pretty much does nothing on zen 4 and prior. Custom software, custom hardware, I think they're just getting overly complex and confusing themselves. They should have just connected a multimeter and measured total system power draw, at the very least as a provably accurate method to crosscheck their work.

Well, I guess I just did argue methodology.

Hardware Unboxed did a thorough review comparing performance with and without PBO and in many cases it barely affected results while drawing a lot more power. The video i linked is timestamped where it addresses the der8auer video you linked.

 

[Osprey]

Along those lines, I read this earlier today:

AMD Ryzen 9000 Zen 5 CPUs Set for Power Boost, AGESA Update Increasing TDP up to 105W

Recent reports suggest that AMD's Zen 5 desktop processors may soon receive a significant power upgrade. The upcoming AGESA 1.2.0.1A Patch A is rumored to increase the default power limits (TDP) from 65 W to 105 W for certain models, specifically the 8-core Ryzen 7 9700X and the 6-core Ryzen 5...

www.techpowerup.com

That's good news, though I'm not sure how much it'll change, since it'll probably not do much for gaming performance and those who want more performance for productivity workloads can already turn on PBO.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Yeah, the 7800X3D is in my future.