Pavel Bure

[Staniowski]

This brings up an interesting question, were Selanne and Mogilny actually better at their peak than Bure? It’s tough to say since both had their peaks during 1992-93, but like you say Bure played then and only scored 60…. It’s quite the difference

All three were great goal-scorers, and all three had great speed, and all three were significantly affected by injuries, in different ways.

I do believe that, at their bests, they were three of the best goal-scorers ever.

But I think Bure was the best goal-scorer of that generation. Bure was better as an individualist, and I think that contributed in giving him an edge. His individualism, combined with his desire to score goals, his explosive skating, stickhandling, and deking ability.

 

[TheBig08]

Bure smashed the big rink too. Ovi struggled internationally.

as he got older for sure but younger ovi was good remember the 14 goals in 8 games at the wjc-18 and were not talking about international talking about nhl numbers

 

[Overrated]

as he got older for sure but younger ovi was good remember the 14 goals in 8 games at the wjc-18 and were not talking about international talking about nhl numbers

games against children don't count

 

[Dale53130]

This brings up an interesting question, were Selanne and Mogilny actually better at their peak than Bure? It’s tough to say since both had their peaks during 1992-93, but like you say Bure played then and only scored 60…. It’s quite the difference

It's probably not a popular opinion, but I think so. Isolating it to their absolute best season.

I've long wondered if Mogilny isn't the most talented of the Bure/Fedorov/Mogilny grouping (including Selanne too).

Mogilny and Selanne have more give-and-take to their game working off of their teammates, and while Bure can individually do things like (almost) no one else, hockey's not a 1-on-5 game at the end of the day. Bure didn't need "optimal conditions" to hit 60 goals. Credit to him for that. In less-than-desirable conditions, I think Selanne and (a motivated enough) Mogilny could still hit 40-50 goals. The flipside is that I highly doubt Bure could give you more than what he gave (60 goals/50 assists, career highs), in terms of his peak play.

I also have a very hard time picturing Bure and Lafontaine's games gelling together, or Bure playing with Zhamnov and specifically Phil Housley, in those scenarios, matching Mogilny and Selanne's high water mark of 76 goals. You need to invest in your teammates more, to yield greater returns. Bure is not that kind of a guy in my opinion.

 

[Overrated]

It's probably not a popular opinion, but I think so. Isolating it to their absolute best season.

I've long wondered if Mogilny isn't the most talented of the Bure/Fedorov/Mogilny grouping (including Selanne too).

Mogilny and Selanne have more give-and-take to their game working off of their teammates, and while Bure can individually do things like (almost) no one else, hockey's not a 1-on-5 game at the end of the day. Bure didn't need "optimal conditions" to hit 60 goals. Credit to him for that. In less-than-desirable conditions, I think Selanne and (a motivated enough) Mogilny could still hit 40-50 goals. The flipside is that I highly doubt Bure could give you more than what he gave (60 goals/50 assists, career highs), in terms of his peak play.

I also have a very hard time picturing Bure and Lafontaine's games gelling together, or Bure playing with Zhamnov and specifically Phil Housley, in those scenarios, matching Mogilny and Selanne's high water mark of 76 goals. You need to invest in your teammates more, to yield greater returns. Bure is not that kind of a guy in my opinion.

Last three seasons of pro hockey at CSKA before departing for the NHL:

Bure dominates even in terms of assists. Secondary and rebounded assists weren't counted afaik.

 

[sr edler]

This brings up an interesting question, were Selanne and Mogilny actually better at their peak than Bure? It’s tough to say since both had their peaks during 1992-93, but like you say Bure played then and only scored 60…. It’s quite the difference

Mogilny's 2 years older than Bure, was 23 at the time and in his 4th NHL season, and played with the more high-octane line-mate in Lafontaine. 92–93 Bure played mostly with Anatoli Semenov (C) and Greg Adams (LW), sprinkled in with some Dixon Ward and Murray Craven.

I'm saying this as a fan of both players, btw. Mogilny had facets to his game where he was better than Bure, but Bure also had facets to his game where he was better than Mogilny.

Selänne's also older than Bure.

Bure playing with Zhamnov

I think Bure played with this guy at the 98 Olympics, where he was voted best forward. So, I don't see why they couldn't have had good chemistry, offensively speaking. It makes zero sense to me to say they couldn't have had.

Bure dominates even in terms of assists. Secondary and rebounded assists weren't counted afaik.

Fun fact is that Bure in Vancouver had more PP assists than PP goals. He used to play the point on the PP in Van.

He also out-scored Fedorov and Mogilny at the 1989 WJC in Anchorage, Alaska, as a 1st year player, the only WJC these guys played together since F & M were two years older.

 

[Overrated]

I think Bure played with this guy at the 98 Olympics, where he was voted best forward. So, I don't see why they couldn't have had good chemistry, offensively speaking. It makes zero sense to me to say they couldn't have had.

It makes no sense to think that Bure wouldn't be a great team player. He was raised by Tikhonov after all.

 

[sr edler]

- feel like bure was an extreme version of soviet anti-longevity. the way you typically had soviet guys falling off as a matter of course in their late 20s, to be replaced by the younger generation coming up, my hunch is that bure was not only brought up in that system where his obsolescence was planned but even moreso than everyone else because his dad was his dad. from a young age he was trained to maximize short term gain to the expense of sustainable performance. brother valeri also fell apart very young.

He also seemed like a guy who had some outside interests, which also could have taken away some passion or focus from the game, like hanging around with dubious 'businessmen' (mobsters?) or even reading up a law degree. Or even just reading books in general. In comparison to someone like Jagr where his life seems to have been more or less only about hockey (gambling doesn't count as a legit hobby IMO).

 

[Dale53130]

I think Bure played with this guy at the 98 Olympics, where he was voted best forward. So, I don't see why they couldn't have had good chemistry, offensively speaking. It makes zero sense to me to say they couldn't have had.

He also out-scored Fedorov and Mogilny at the 1989 WJC in Anchorage, Alaska, as a 1st year player, the only WJC these guys played together since F & M were two years older.

It makes no sense to think that Bure wouldn't be a great team player. He was raised by Tikhonov after all.

I don't see what small samples of international play has to do with peak production in the NHL over a single season. Same with how Bure performed in Russia. That's just it, he (pretty much) had the freedom to play how he wanted to play in the NHL, no longer under Tikhonov's watchful eye. If he was a superior playmaker to Fedorov or Mogilny in Russia, he wasn't that guy in the NHL.

His game is mostly weighted towards being a goalscorer. He eclipsed the 40 assist mark twice, whereas Mogilny did so seven times, and Selanne nine times.

Sure Selanne is older, by "1" year, and Bure was in year 2 with the Canucks in 1992-93, with - I think - a more balanced roster than say the Jets.

Bure needed the puck on his stick more than any elite All Time great goalscoring winger that I can think of. It's a waste to have him paired with a great playmaking centerman, meaning a waste for the playmaking centerman. He was his own playmaker. If you watched him up close all of those years, you should be able to recognize that.

 

[Overrated]

I don't see what small samples of international play has to do with peak production in the NHL over a single season. Same with how Bure performed in Russia. That's just it, he (pretty much) had the freedom to play how he wanted to play in the NHL, no longer under Tikhonov's watchful eye. If he was a superior playmaker to Fedorov or Mogilny in Russia, he wasn't that guy in the NHL.

His game is mostly weighted towards being a goalscorer. He eclipsed the 40 assist mark twice, whereas Mogilny did so seven times, and Selanne nine times.

Sure Selanne is older, by "1" year, and Bure was in year 2 with the Canucks in 1992-93, with - I think - a more balanced roster than say the Jets.

Bure needed the puck on his stick more than any elite All Time great goalscoring winger that I can think of. It's a waste to have him paired with a great playmaking centerman, meaning a waste for the playmaking centerman. He was his own playmaker. If you watched him up close all of those years, you should be able to recognize that.

What I posted wasn't a small sample international play but 3 seasons of the elite Soviet league and a game sample of over 100 games. Even if he weren't a superior playmaker he wasn't that much inferior and that was the point. He still led his NHL team in assists 5 times. Not his fault he mostly played with subpar players.

 

[Dale53130]

What I posted wasn't a small sample international play but 3 seasons of the elite Soviet league and a game sample of over 100 games. Even if he weren't a superior playmaker he wasn't that much inferior and that was the point. He still led his NHL team in assists 5 times. Not his fault he mostly played with subpar players.

I don't see what small samples of international play has to do with peak production in the NHL over a single season. Same with how Bure performed in Russia. That's just it, he (pretty much) had the freedom to play how he wanted to play in the NHL, no longer under Tikhonov's watchful eye. If he was a superior playmaker to Fedorov or Mogilny in Russia, he wasn't that guy in the NHL.

The 2nd portion was directed at you, responding to their stats in Russia.

Stylistically, he's a guy looking for his own shot first, holding onto the puck most of the time. Can he pass? Of course. Can he generate offense? Of course. Did he play in a way that he was playmaking for others? I don't think so. Not in the sense that he was going out there, trying to make his linemates better, with the intention of igniting their offense. I think he wanted to get himself going, above all else. He can rack up a certain amount of assists, without necessarily being a fascilitator. I think his assists are more of a product of his being a line-driver, and less to do with being a playmaker. I think people massage the two together at times, I don't.

Bure led the league in SOG 4 times, and if he didn't have so many truncated seasons, he's probably getting there literally every single year. That's not a playmaker in my opinion. With Bure, he's looking for his shot 1st, 2nd, and then he'll feed it to whoever's left open. If he was more of a playmaker in Russia, congratulations, but he wasn't that guy in the NHL.

I used Iverson in an earlier post, because I think both guys get too much credit for "carrying the team on their backs", but they're not the easiest guys to play with (or build a roster around). Also, they can get their own offense going in the playoffs, but the team surrounding them are easier to gameplan against.

As far as his mostly playing with subpar players, I think those early '90s Canucks teams were pretty good, though I'll say that I thought he was the best player on those teams (overall). I'll agree that he was pretty much the best player on his team almost every year that he played for. I don't necessarily think he was dealt a bad hand though.

 

[MadLuke]

I cannot say if it is true would he meshed or not with a Lafontaine on a great offensive first line and argument both ways make some sense.

But, if true, in a worst case, put him on the second line and have an incredible 2 line punch.

Mikita-Hull, Crosby-Malkin, Forsberg-Sakic, Stasny-Goulet, you do not need to stack the first line, has long as he work on the first PP unit you can turn this as a plus.

You prefer someone that can make the linemate better that score as much, but someone that do not need anyone on his line to work, great.

 

[frontsfan2005]

A lot of players damage their career legacies (if that's important is another question, of course) by changing treams. Pavel Bure is a good example. I think if he'd stayed with the Canucks through the late-90s and early-00s into the Naslund / Bertuzzi period, they'd have been even better in that latter era, probably had playoff success, etc., and Bure would still have been getting his 45-55 goals per year. He'd be more appreciated, be more universally loved, and have higher goals' totals. There'd be a statue of him outside Rogers Arena.

But it was the 90s, when star players all wanted to get traded a lot, and also Canucks' management at the time was a trainwreck...

Not sure what kind of playoff success the Canucks are having with Bure on the early 00's teams making $10 million/year in seasons when the Canucks payroll was under $30 mil.

Check out this article about the Canucks finances:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/canucks-financial-situation-improving-1.279007

They lost $36.6 million in 1998 - which was basically their entire player payroll.

Had Bure hung around, and he wasn't about to take a discount to stay in Vancouver, he'd literally be a one-man team. Once Naslund, Bertuzzi and others were looking for a raise, they'd be shipped out. Even if he does take a "hometown" discount, it's still likely in the $8 million range.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This brings up an interesting question, were Selanne and Mogilny actually better at their peak than Bure? It’s tough to say since both had their peaks during 1992-93, but like you say Bure played then and only scored 60…. It’s quite the difference

imo mogilny was the second most talented winger of his generation, after only jagr

that said i’m not sure what looking solely at 1993 tells us. yes it was mogilny best season, but bure immediately improved on 93 a year later and selanne’s best years were in the late 90s.

 

[Overrated]

As far as his mostly playing with subpar players, I think those early '90s Canucks teams were pretty good, though I'll say that I thought he was the best player on those teams (overall). I'll agree that he was pretty much the best player on his team almost every year that he played for. I don't necessarily think he was dealt a bad hand though.

Well his teams didn't make the playoffs most of the years despite the fact 16 out of 26 teams made the playoffs. It's ridiculous for a star player to be stuck in a bottom tier team. That is why I am always gonna be against the idea of the draft.

I get what you probably mean though which is that when he first came into the league the Canucks were quite decent that's true but overall he wasn't on very good teams.

 

[authentic]

imo mogilny was the second most talented winger of his generation, after only jagr

that said i’m not sure what looking solely at 1993 tells us. yes it was mogilny best season, but bure immediately improved on 93 a year later and selanne’s best years were in the late 90s.

Yeah he improved on 93 with 60 in 76, that’s a long ways from 76 in 77. Like can it be cracked up to linemates and league scoring or was Mogilny just slightly better than them at his best? Because I actually agree with you I think based on pure talent Mogilny may have been the best besides Jagr. He was like a Bure with more height, reach and playmaking ability. Infact young Mogilny highlights look more akin to an elite modern day player than anyone from that era IMO including Bure.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Bure was the best of all time at celebrating goals in a 5-1 loss.

Mogilny was good during contract years.

Fedorov got it done when it mattered.

 

[MadLuke]

with the 1994 playoff, 2 goals in the game 7 the next year, scoring 5 goals in the nagano semi-final. Bure can have the benefit of the doubt that he would have given the chance (Ferodov did it more often and must be celebrated for it, but there no reason to doubt Bure would have).

has for Selanne-Mogilny vs Bure 1993, him being younger was already point out other point

After checking, it is not a case of Selanne feasting against expension team, he scored again everyone.
Bure shoot 14.7% in 1993, his career was 14.0%, i.e. that 60 goal sound like it was perfectly "sustainable" and not a particularly good year for him and he was able to ~60 many other times. The other 2, without being big aberration (a la Karlsson 40 goal campaign) had their career best shooting percentage in 1993.

 

[Gorskyontario]

with the 1994 playoff, 2 goals in the game 7 the next year, scoring 5 goals in the nagano semi-final. Bure can have the benefit of the doubt that he would have given the chance (Ferodov did it more often and must be celebrated for it, but there no reason to doubt Bure would have).

has for Selanne-Mogilny vs Bure 1993, him being younger was already point out other point

After checking, it is not a case of Selanne feasting against expension team, he scored again everyone.
Bure shoot 14.7% in 1993, his career was 14.0%, i.e. that 60 goal sound like it was perfectly "sustainable" and not a particularly good year for him and he was able to ~60 many other times. The other 2, without being big aberration (a la Karlsson 40 goal campaign) had their career best shooting percentage in 1993.

So if Bure got it done so much when it matter, why did he float and play so lazily for the entire 2nd half of his career?

 

[MadLuke]

or the entire 2nd half of his career?

How many meaningful games did he play ?

 

[JFedol]

Is there any reason why Bure wasn't a huge playmaker?. I've seen countless of games where he blows by a guy, and has a great opportunity to set up a dude or his centre and he either just whiffs on the pass or goes for the shot instead. You'd think, with that type of explosive speed that the thought of passing and vision would've been emphasized to the tenth degree, but I guess he loved scoring too much lol.

Another example, but there's even one moment in game 7 vs NY in 94 where he retrieves the puck after a big hit, comes out from behind the net and skates around to try and tuck it around Richter, but during that whole squence, he had a canuck player in the slot uncontested all because of 3-4 Rangers chasing him and he simply could've just dropped it down for an easy goal.

I think he could've racked up way more points if his primary focus was playmaking ngl

 

[Johnny Engine]

He certainly bounced a few pucks off of Gino Odjick's behind when he chose to.

I may be forgetting someone, but did he ever play on a team with a non-homeless-man's version of whatever Odjick was doing during that half season? Whether that's a Tkachuk type, an Andreychuk type, a Robitaille type, anything else where you'd say, if Bure's your best forward and he's your second best forward then it makes sense to have Bure carrying and looking for a pass...I don't think any of Ronning, Linden, Mogilny, Whitney, Kozlov, or brother Val fit that dynamic where they both absolutely have to be playing together  and also need to be moving the puck in that direction.

 

[Overrated]

Is there any reason why Bure wasn't a huge playmaker?. I've seen countless of games where he blows by a guy, and has a great opportunity to set up a dude or his centre and he either just whiffs on the pass or goes for the shot instead. You'd think, with that type of explosive speed that the thought of passing and vision would've been emphasized to the tenth degree, but I guess he loved scoring too much lol.

Another example, but there's even one moment in game 7 vs NY in 94 where he retrieves the puck after a big hit, comes out from behind the net and skates around to try and tuck it around Richter, but during that whole squence, he had a canuck player in the slot uncontested all because of 3-4 Rangers chasing him and he simply could've just dropped it down for an easy goal.

I think he could've racked up way more points if his primary focus was playmaking ngl

he certainly had the necessary playmaking skills coming from the Soviet system, interestingly in the season when they reached the finals he led his team in assists in both the regular season and the playoffs:

Vancouver Canucks @ NHL - 1993‑1994 Stats

Vancouver Canucks stats, scoring leaders and demographics breakdown in the 1993-1994 NHL season. Player nationality and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1993-1994 season.

www.quanthockey.com

 

[Sergei Bure]

If Bure was playing in this era, he would have beaten Gretzky record before Ovechkin...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He certainly bounced a few pucks off of Gino Odjick's behind when he chose to.

I may be forgetting someone, but did he ever play on a team with a non-homeless-man's version of whatever Odjick was doing during that half season? Whether that's a Tkachuk type, an Andreychuk type, a Robitaille type, anything else where you'd say, if Bure's your best forward and he's your second best forward then it makes sense to have Bure carrying and looking for a pass...I don't think any of Ronning, Linden, Mogilny, Whitney, Kozlov, or brother Val fit that dynamic where they both absolutely have to be playing together  and also need to be moving the puck in that direction.

the goal scorer bure most consistently played with in vancouver was greg adams. a good slot guy with some nice hands, capable of scoring 30 goals in the 80s/early 90s and probably would have hit 40 in a career year if he wasn’t always getting hurt. he scored 35 twice in the 80s (back when he was a center) and in his four year winger peak (1990 to 1993) averaged 35 goals/82 but missed an average of almost 20 games a year. i’d feel comfortable calling adams a poor man’s robitaille.

the other goal scorer bure played with a bunch was geoff courtnall. they had several stretches together in the 93 season, centered by anatoli semenov. a legit good goalscorer but i never liked them together because they were both shoot first puck carriers. seemed like a misallocation of resources.