Paul Kariya vs Pavel Bure

[Garbageyuk]

Whoosh.

Sure buddy.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I'd pick Bure over Kariya but Selänne over Bure.

 

[authentic]

I'd pick Bure over Kariya but Selänne over Bure.

Kariya was basically as good as Selanne, although perhaps a slight edge to Selanne at his peak. Either way all 3 are extremely close.

 

[Rorschach]

I'd pick Bure over Kariya but Selänne over Bure.

Pre-skate through Achilles, I think Selanne would have been top 5 of all time.

Kariya was basically as good as Selanne, although perhaps a slight edge to Selanne at his peak. Either way all 3 are extremely close.

Selanne’s rookie season was unfortunately his peak season.

 

[authentic]

Pre-skate through Achilles, I think Selanne would have been top 5 of all time.


Selanne’s rookie season was unfortunately his peak season.

You think Selanne would’ve been a top 5 player of all time?

 

[Plural]

You think Selanne would’ve been a top 5 player of all time?

Or that his peak season was his rookie season.

 

[authentic]

Or that his peak season was his rookie season.

Yeah that’s for sure but just was he really going to top that again without injury? Hard to say really maybe he could’ve but I don’t know if he would’ve been a top 10 player of all time and almost certainly not top 5. Then again he did age unbelievably well considering all the injuries he overcame at different stages of his career so who knows really.

 

[Plural]

Yeah that’s for sure but just was he really going to top that again without injury? Hard to say really maybe he could’ve but I don’t know if he would’ve been a top 10 player of all time and almost certainly not top 5. Then again he did age unbelievably well considering all the injuries he overcame at different stages of his career so who knows really.

Absolutely not top-5. With perfect health and luck, I guess something like top-30 is possible.

 

[trentmccleary]

Kariya.
There's not much separating them offensively. Kariya played the scarce position, was more durable and a lot fewer goals were scored against him when he was on the ice.

Selanne was clearly better than either one of them. They combined 12 full PPG seasons, Selanne had 11 by himself. If you add up each of their 10 best together and compare it to Selanne's entire career, it's not far off. If you compare the 5 best seasons of all 3 players, Selanne blows them out of the water (5 best seasons PPG = 1.24 Bure, 1.23 Kariya and 1.38 Selanne).

 

[authentic]

Absolutely not top-5. With perfect health and luck, I guess something like top-30 is possible.

Oh yeah I think top 30 would’ve been a lock for him probably.

 

[BerthMania]

I voted Bure, but Kariya's 95-96 season is incredible. He had 108 points and the second best scorer (Steve Rucchin) had only 44. It's more then double. That's crazy.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Weird retreat.

It wasn’t weird or a retreat. Maybe read the conversation you’re responding to?

 

[DitchMarner]

Kariya.
There's not much separating them offensively. Kariya played the scarce position, was more durable and a lot fewer goals were scored against him when he was on the ice.

Selanne was clearly better than either one of them. They combined 12 full PPG seasons, Selanne had 11 by himself. If you add up each of their 10 best together and compare it to Selanne's entire career, it's not far off. If you compare the 5 best seasons of all 3 players, Selanne blows them out of the water (5 best seasons PPG = 1.24 Bure, 1.23 Kariya and 1.38 Selanne).

That can be meaningful, but in the case of these two, it may be the result of luck more than anything else.

Neither player has a reputation for being a good defensive player. At their best, guys like Jagr and Ovechkin were able to heavily outscore the opposition at ES due to being good possession players and tilting the ice. Did Kariya really do either of those things much better than Bure? It would be good to be able to see corsi type data from the prime seasons of Bure and Kariya.

The superior goals against results may also have to do with the fact that Kariya had another major threat on his line that teams had to worry about in Selanne and a solid defensive centre in Rucchin whereas Bure was basically FLA's lone scoring threat at times and had to cherry-pick.

 

[authentic]

That can be meaningful, but in the case of these two, it may be the result of luck more than anything else.

Neither player has a reputation for being a good defensive player. At their best, guys like Jagr and Ovechkin were able to heavily outscore the opposition at ES due to being good possession players and tilting the ice. Did Kariya really do either of those things much better than Bure? It would be good to be able to see corsi type data from the prime seasons of Bure and Kariya.

The superior goals against results may also have to do with the fact that Kariya had another major threat on his line that teams had to worry about in Selanne and a solid defensive centre in Rucchin whereas Bure was basically FLA's lone scoring threat at times and had to cherry-pick.

Based on memory of watching the two I would think if anything Bure did that better

 

[Regal]

Based on memory of watching the two I would think if anything Bure did that better

I’d say he was better when he played that way but also had periods that were worse. He was also a regular on the PK that was quite good at disrupting PPs by being a shorthanded threat. Led the league in SH goals over his career. Kariya did that a bit as well but wasn’t the same threat after injuries.

 

[Cruor]

In terms of speed and goalscoring they are about as even as it gets with a slight advantage to Bure, so that is a good comp. I think Kariya was a more cerebral player and a better playmaker. When they played together I always thought Kariya was slightly better than Selänne.

 

[Hippasus]

I voted Bure, but Kariya's 95-96 season is incredible. He had 108 points and the second best scorer (Steve Rucchin) had only 44. It's more then double. That's crazy.

How is that even possible?

 

[BraveCanadian]

In terms of speed and goalscoring they are about as even as it gets with a slight advantage to Bure, so that is a good comp. I think Kariya was a more cerebral player and a better playmaker. When they played together I always thought Kariya was slightly better than Selänne.

Most rated them that way as Kariya was still improving and then the injuries brought him down.

 

[authentic]

How is that even possible?

Bure had 59 goals and 92 points when the next best on his team had 37 points.

 

[Hippasus]

Bure had 59 goals and 92 points when the next best on his team had 37 points.

Wow, that's an even higher ratio (2.49 vs. 2.45). I think it has to do with the lack of parity in the pre-cap era. The offense just runs through lone, good offensive players on lesser teams as they get tons of ice time, PP time, they're the puck distributors, etc. Still, very impressive for both players. I'm still kind of baffled. Maybe they get a little bit of help from a bunch of players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

How is that even possible?

My guess is by skating with different players at ES and PP. Or heavy line-shuffling going on.

Kariya scored 50 goals that year and nobody even had 30 assists. Presumably he didn’t have 20 unassisted goals, so one way or another he must have ended up skating with different sets of linemates.

Edit: another possible factor, Kariya was the only player in Anaheim’s top-5 scorers who played more than 64 games. Selanne was their 4th highest scorer with only 28 games. So guys going in and out of the lineup was surely a big part of why no one guy racked up a bunch of points with him.

 

[Hippasus]

My guess is by skating with different players at ES and PP.

Must be that in part. These two are probably up there for highest points ratio over number two on their team all-time.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Must be that in part. These two are probably up there for highest points ratio over number two on their team all-time.

I posted too fast… check my edit if you didn’t already see it.