Paul Kariya vs Pavel Bure
- Thread starter Bouboumaster
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Conspiracy Theorist
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Kariya was basically as good as Selanne, although perhaps a slight edge to Selanne at his peak. Either way all 3 are extremely close.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Pre-skate through Achilles, I think Selanne would have been top 5 of all time.
Selanne’s rookie season was unfortunately his peak season.
Plural
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Yeah that’s for sure but just was he really going to top that again without injury? Hard to say really maybe he could’ve but I don’t know if he would’ve been a top 10 player of all time and almost certainly not top 5. Then again he did age unbelievably well considering all the injuries he overcame at different stages of his career so who knows really.
Plural
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Absolutely not top-5. With perfect health and luck, I guess something like top-30 is possible.
trentmccleary
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Kariya.
There's not much separating them offensively. Kariya played the scarce position, was more durable and a lot fewer goals were scored against him when he was on the ice.
Selanne was clearly better than either one of them. They combined 12 full PPG seasons, Selanne had 11 by himself. If you add up each of their 10 best together and compare it to Selanne's entire career, it's not far off. If you compare the 5 best seasons of all 3 players, Selanne blows them out of the water (5 best seasons PPG = 1.24 Bure, 1.23 Kariya and 1.38 Selanne).
There's not much separating them offensively. Kariya played the scarce position, was more durable and a lot fewer goals were scored against him when he was on the ice.
Selanne was clearly better than either one of them. They combined 12 full PPG seasons, Selanne had 11 by himself. If you add up each of their 10 best together and compare it to Selanne's entire career, it's not far off. If you compare the 5 best seasons of all 3 players, Selanne blows them out of the water (5 best seasons PPG = 1.24 Bure, 1.23 Kariya and 1.38 Selanne).
BerthMania
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I voted Bure, but Kariya's 95-96 season is incredible. He had 108 points and the second best scorer (Steve Rucchin) had only 44. It's more then double. That's crazy.
tarheelhockey
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It wasn’t weird or a retreat. Maybe read the conversation you’re responding to?
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
That can be meaningful, but in the case of these two, it may be the result of luck more than anything else.
Neither player has a reputation for being a good defensive player. At their best, guys like Jagr and Ovechkin were able to heavily outscore the opposition at ES due to being good possession players and tilting the ice. Did Kariya really do either of those things much better than Bure? It would be good to be able to see corsi type data from the prime seasons of Bure and Kariya.
The superior goals against results may also have to do with the fact that Kariya had another major threat on his line that teams had to worry about in Selanne and a solid defensive centre in Rucchin whereas Bure was basically FLA's lone scoring threat at times and had to cherry-pick.
Based on memory of watching the two I would think if anything Bure did that better
I’d say he was better when he played that way but also had periods that were worse. He was also a regular on the PK that was quite good at disrupting PPs by being a shorthanded threat. Led the league in SH goals over his career. Kariya did that a bit as well but wasn’t the same threat after injuries.
Cruor
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In terms of speed and goalscoring they are about as even as it gets with a slight advantage to Bure, so that is a good comp. I think Kariya was a more cerebral player and a better playmaker. When they played together I always thought Kariya was slightly better than Selänne.
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
BraveCanadian
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Most rated them that way as Kariya was still improving and then the injuries brought him down.
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Wow, that's an even higher ratio (2.49 vs. 2.45). I think it has to do with the lack of parity in the pre-cap era. The offense just runs through lone, good offensive players on lesser teams as they get tons of ice time, PP time, they're the puck distributors, etc. Still, very impressive for both players. I'm still kind of baffled. Maybe they get a little bit of help from a bunch of players.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
My guess is by skating with different players at ES and PP. Or heavy line-shuffling going on.
Kariya scored 50 goals that year and nobody even had 30 assists. Presumably he didn’t have 20 unassisted goals, so one way or another he must have ended up skating with different sets of linemates.
Edit: another possible factor, Kariya was the only player in Anaheim’s top-5 scorers who played more than 64 games. Selanne was their 4th highest scorer with only 28 games. So guys going in and out of the lineup was surely a big part of why no one guy racked up a bunch of points with him.
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Must be that in part. These two are probably up there for highest points ratio over number two on their teams all-time.
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tarheelhockey
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Figgy44
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I feel like they're different players. IIRC, Kariya was more well balanced of a player than Bure (not vs league or expectations, just vs Bure). Bure was more of a specialist vs Kariya.
The biggest difference IMO/IIRC was that Kariya was better at using his teammates, like a platoon leader. Bure was like the juggernaut that goes out and does stuff on his own with a basic set of instructions. IIRC Kariya would also step up as a juggernaut as needed, but it just wasn't his default primary role like Bure's typically was.
IMO, I'd choose Kariya. He's the type of player you could put with any type of talent and he'd do reasonably OK. Bure on the other hand I feel like if you had a player like that, you'd have no choice but to build a team around him.
Stylistically, it kinda feels a little like a Crosby vs Ovi type of comparison when you see how the lines and teams were built around Crosby and Ovi (not generational talent and career levels). Crosby and Kariya would do a little bit of everything and play a little with a wider variety of line mates. Bure and Ovi would focus on what they do best. But honestly, maybe my memory isn't accurate on this.
The biggest difference IMO/IIRC was that Kariya was better at using his teammates, like a platoon leader. Bure was like the juggernaut that goes out and does stuff on his own with a basic set of instructions. IIRC Kariya would also step up as a juggernaut as needed, but it just wasn't his default primary role like Bure's typically was.
IMO, I'd choose Kariya. He's the type of player you could put with any type of talent and he'd do reasonably OK. Bure on the other hand I feel like if you had a player like that, you'd have no choice but to build a team around him.
Stylistically, it kinda feels a little like a Crosby vs Ovi type of comparison when you see how the lines and teams were built around Crosby and Ovi (not generational talent and career levels). Crosby and Kariya would do a little bit of everything and play a little with a wider variety of line mates. Bure and Ovi would focus on what they do best. But honestly, maybe my memory isn't accurate on this.
Plural
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No, that's pretty good. Bure was a specialized talent. He was a reasonably good star in utilizing his team-mates. He was more a dynamic skater with top-speed hands. Before McDavid, Bure might be the best high-speed skater with stickhandling.
Kariya was a speedster too, but more well rounded and lacked the killer instinct for goals, that Bure had.
As an all-around offensive talent, I feel Kariya was bit better. Then again, Bure was better at scoring. I think the comparison between then depends on your preference.
I pick Kariya, because he was bit more multitalented. What he lacked in scoring (compared to Bure) he made up in playmaking.
Similar tier players and both belong in the top-70 all-time discussions. Hall of Fame superstars for sure.
