Paul Kariya vs Pavel Bure

[Felidae]

This shouldn't be an "AINEC" either way, they are pretty close as players.

Kariya

Points: 3, 3, 4, 7
PPG: 4, 5, 7
Goals: 4, 7, 9, 10
GPG: 3, 5

Hart finishes: 2, 8, 9


Bure

Points: 2, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 3, 7, 7, 8
Goals: 1, 1, 1, 3, 5
GPG: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 7

Hart finishes: 3, 9


I will say, when Bure finished 2nd and 3rd in scoring, it was during weaker years for forwards than when Kariya finished 3rd in scoring twice. Bure in 1999 finished 2nd in points in a year Jagr won the Art Ross missing 19 games. Strong year for Jagr, not so much for everyone else relatively speaking. A lot of the top forwards like Sakic, Forsberg and Bure himself missed games.

In 1997, Jagr's weakest art Ross, prime Forsberg. But then Palffy, Leclair, old man Gretzky. Again, not the strongest group..

In comparison, when Kariya finished 3rd in 1996, peak Selanne and old man Lemieux (who was producing at a peak Jagr rate)

And then in 1998, finished 3rd against peak Jagr playing a whole season, peak Selanne, and forsberg and Sakic in their primes.

Of course, maybe this is offset by the fact Selanne was Kariya's teammate, but Kariya also proved himself as an elite scorer without Selanne in 1995-96, finishing 7th in scoring as a 21 year old, with a 61 point gap over the next best scorer on the team..


so I think you could argue Kariya was Bure's equal in terms of overall point production at their peak.

But whether you think Kariya was better overall offensively or not, Bure has such a clear edge in goalscoring that I'm not sure a small edge Kariya has as a point producer makes up for it

 

[Regal]

This shouldn't be an "AINEC" either way, they are pretty close as players.

Kariya

Points: 3, 3, 4, 7
PPG: 4, 5, 7
Goals: 4, 7, 9, 10
GPG: 3, 5

Hart finishes: 2, 8, 9


Bure

Points: 2, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 3, 7, 7, 8
Goals: 1, 1, 1, 3, 5
GPG: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 7

Hart finishes: 3, 9


I will say, when Bure finished 2nd and 3rd in scoring, it was during weaker years for forwards than when Kariya finished 3rd in scoring twice. Bure in 1999 finished 2nd in points in a year Jagr won the Art Ross missing 19 games. Strong year for Jagr, not so much for everyone else relatively speaking. A lot of the top forwards like Sakic, Forsberg and Bure himself missed games.

In 1997, Jagr's weakest art Ross, prime Forsberg. But then Palffy, Leclair, old man Gretzky. Again, not the strongest group..

In comparison, when Kariya finished 3rd in 1996, peak Selanne and old man Lemieux (who was producing at a peak Jagr rate)

And then in 1998, finished 3rd against peak Jagr playing a whole season, peak Selanne, and forsberg and Sakic in their primes.

Of course, maybe this is offset by the fact Selanne was Kariya's teammate, but Kariya also proved himself as an elite scorer without Selanne in 1995-96, finishing 7th in scoring as a 21 year old, with a 61 point gap over the next best scorer on the team..


so I think you could argue Kariya was Bure's equal in terms of overall point production at their peak.

But whether you think Kariya was better overall offensively or not, Bure has such a clear edge in goalscoring that I'm not sure a small edge Kariya has as a point producer makes up for it

While he was still getting better as a player, it should probably also be noted that Kariya was 14th in scoring and 20th in points per game on February 7th, his last game before Selanne joined the lineup (Selanne was 9th in points and points per game on Winnipeg). Then the rest of the year he was 6th in scoring and 5th in points per game with 21 G and 44 P in 29 games. 14th with the roster before Selanne is pretty awesome obviously but I do think Selanne helped him in a way Bure never really got.

Also, while Bure’s 2nd place in scoring was a weaker year for sure, I think outside of Jagr and Selanne in Kariya‘s two 3rd place finishes, there were a lot of guys who missed time or weren’t playing at their best.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Bure used to play like 30 min a night in florida and just waiting at the blue line

Apparently I didn't watch those games. Bure was quick on the breakout, so I get why it appears that way.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Apparently I didn't watch those games. Bure was quick on the breakout, so I get why it appears that way.

It looks a lot quicker when you’re already outside your teams blue line for sure..

Bure was pretty ok defensively for a winger in Vancouver but he was one of the all time cherry pickers in Florida.

I can’t even blame him because I think it was literally his team strategy to let him do that and hope that they could spring him enough to provide the whole teams offence. But even in comparison to a guy like Kariya it makes him one dimensional when comparing those seasons.

 

[Regal]

It looks a lot quicker when you’re already outside your teams blue line for sure..

Bure was pretty ok defensively for a winger in Vancouver but he was one of the all time cherry pickers in Florida.

I can’t even blame him because I think it was literally his team strategy to let him do that and hope that they could spring him enough to provide the whole teams offence. But even in comparison to a guy like Kariya it makes him one dimensional when comparing those seasons.

I think this is one of those things that gets massively overblown. He did it when the team had no other options from all the injuries in ‘01, but that gets extended over his entire time, but it wasn’t really the case the rest of his Florida career. They were the 8th best team in ‘00 and top 10 in both goals for and goals against and Bure was +25. I don’t think that happens letting Bure cherry pick half the game.

 

[authentic]

Apparently I didn't watch those games. Bure was quick on the breakout, so I get why it appears that way.

He never played 30 mins a night either except on rare occasions maybe. His average ice time was never anywhere close to that.

 

[Albatros]

I think this is one of those things that gets massively overblown. He did it when the team had no other options from all the injuries in ‘01, but that gets extended over his entire time, but it wasn’t really the case the rest of his Florida career. They were the 8th best team in ‘00 and top 10 in both goals for and goals against and Bure was +25. I don’t think that happens letting Bure cherry pick half the game.

Maybe initially, but I don't recall it being any different anymore at any point before his trade to New York in March '02.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Kariya was a top 5 player in the league at his best. Bure barely cracked top 10.

 

[Jack Spider]

As a 93 born, Kariya was a lot more popular than Bure.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Bure seems to get more and more overrated each year.

In a few more years he's gonna rival Sakic and Yzerman. A couple more years after that he'll pull ahead of Jagr.

Pretty sure in the next 20 years, he's going to somehow move into the Big-4 territory.



20 years ago, Bure would not be leading this poll.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Kariya was a top 5 player in the league at his best. Bure barely cracked top 10.

Kariya was a top 5 player for a year or two, so was Bure. Given their career paths, it's a close comparison. Bure won a trophy or two, unlike Kariya, so that might count for something. It's not like his Richard trophies were a Cheechoo anomaly.

 

[Regal]

Maybe initially, but I don't recall it being any different anymore at any point before his trade to New York in March '02.

Yea it was probably true in ‘02 as well, though that wasn’t really one of his notable years. Then in NY he played a better all around game again

 

[Regal]

Kariya was a top 5 player in the league at his best. Bure barely cracked top 10.

I don’t know if Kariya was ever a real top 5 player. Lemieux, Jagr, Hasek, Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic were all better through most of his peak, and he and Selanne were very close. I do think he was probably considered closer than Bure ever was, though that’s partly due to Bure’s best years being spread out more.

 

[wetcoast]

I think this is one of those things that gets massively overblown. He did it when the team had no other options from all the injuries in ‘01, but that gets extended over his entire time, but it wasn’t really the case the rest of his Florida career. They were the 8th best team in ‘00 and top 10 in both goals for and goals against and Bure was +25. I don’t think that happens letting Bure cherry pick half the game.

It's one of those lazy narratives that has a small kernel of truth but then gets vastly exaggerated or stated as a career thing when it wasn't much like how guys like Zubov, Lidstrom, Nieds, Thornton, Dionne for example get pushed down in hockey history.

Kariya was a great player before injuries but Bure had that aura around him that makes him a hockey god to sme people who watched him play....much like the original Rocket in that way.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Bure as I deem him to be the better player overall. Good poll.

 

[biturbo19]

Healthy Kariya was probably more skilled and far more versatile...but Bure as a goal-scorer is into rarified air as an impact talent. The things he did, through the prime of his career...mostly without much of any support from a good Center at all, were just special. Kariya was more just...a really good player who didn't quite transcend the same way.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

I think peak vs peak I would take Kariya

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Bure no hesitation

 

[centipede2233]

Bure was the better goal scorer, better and harder shot, faster, better body checker all the while having mike keenan jerk him around and the kgb breathing down his neck

 

[Felidae]

While he was still getting better as a player, it should probably also be noted that Kariya was 14th in scoring and 20th in points per game on February 7th, his last game before Selanne joined the lineup (Selanne was 9th in points and points per game on Winnipeg). Then the rest of the year he was 6th in scoring and 5th in points per game with 21 G and 44 P in 29 games. 14th with the roster before Selanne is pretty awesome obviously but I do think Selanne helped him in a way Bure never really got.

Also, while Bure’s 2nd place in scoring was a weaker year for sure, I think outside of Jagr and Selanne in Kariya‘s two 3rd place finishes, there were a lot of guys who missed time or weren’t playing at their best.

True but Kariya's competition those years were still clearly better than Bure's high point finishes as a Panther. If anything, players missing time and/or not playing at their best applied even moreso in 1999 and 1997 (at least for forwards)

But yeah, the late 90s in general didnt have the best forward competition partly due to the superstars missing quite a bit of time, these 2 included.


I will say, if anything Pavel Bure's Canucks years suffer from incredible competition. Especially 1992, i know it was very high scoring, but you had 4 HHOFers at their absolute peak (Oates, LaFontaine, Gilmour, Turgeon) then of course Lemieux and Yzerman having a top 3 season of their career, and they were all healthy (except lemieux)

 

[Fatass]

Bure was doing things back in the day that only McDavid is doing now.


A lot of what ifs had he stayed healthy his entire career

Exactly. Bure got the nick name “Russian Rocket” because he was uniquely electrifying with the puck. Very similar to McDavid.

 

[geebster]

To me this is obviously Bure and Kariya is probably one of my favourite players of all time. People arguing stat minutia probably never saw them both play.

One thing I find interesting is that a large portion of this board, and hockey fans in general, usually say goals are more valuable than assists. That Marner having more points than Matthews doesn't matter if Matthews has a lot more goals. Here we are comparing two guys that could put up similar point totals but one is clearly a better goalscorer, yet that doesn't seem to be factored in as much as it does in other convos.

Perhaps it's simply that the people in here aren't ones that believe goals are worth more than assists, but it is curious that the starkest difference between these two is one of them scores more.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Who was better between the two of Them?

Probably the two guys from my childhood I’d most like to see play a healthy career in today’s game. Forsberg and Lafontaine are up there as well, but damn- electrifying players, both of ‘em. I like Kariya more overall, just feels more like a cup winner- yes, I’m going off vibes.

 

[authentic]

To me this is obviously Bure and Kariya is probably one of my favourite players of all time. People arguing stat minutia probably never saw them both play.

One thing I find interesting is that a large portion of this board, and hockey fans in general, usually say goals are more valuable than assists. That Marner having more points than Matthews doesn't matter if Matthews has a lot more goals. Here we are comparing two guys that could put up similar point totals but one is clearly a better goalscorer, yet that doesn't seem to be factored in as much as it does in other convos.

Perhaps it's simply that the people in here aren't ones that believe goals are worth more than assists, but it is curious that the starkest difference between these two is one of them scores more.

I think Bure simply had more impact on the game beyond points and was notably better during the playoffs as well. Also doesn’t change your point but Matthews usually scores more points than Marner.

I think back in the day Kariya may have been recognized as a slightly better player but that was during down seasons by Bure which were plagued by injury and also with some projecting Kariya to be a potential candidate for the worlds best player in the near future. So the question is do you take Kariya over 60+ goal Bure in the dead puck era or 1994 carrying the team on his back Bure, and I would say the answer is a clear no for me but I do see how people choose Kariya due to his combination of goal scoring and playmaking ability.

Kariya at his full potential could’ve reached a slightly higher level of offense but put him on the teams Bure was on and I don’t even know if that would’ve been the case anyway. Kariya was probably better suited to have another dynamic goal scoring winger on his line anyway, not sure how much more that would’ve boosted Bure’s stats when his game was almost tailor made to be one man show.

 

[K Fleur]

I think Kariya was a more well rounded offensive player.

Neither guy did anything really worth caring about outside of scoring/creating chances.