Player Discussion Patrik Laine: ruining the tank

[le_sean]

I think people are just miffed we are still a 2 line team, with or without Laine. Without Laine we are a 1.5 line team to be fair.

Assuming we have the typical Laine, it’s 2 pretty good lines. It’s more than what the Capitals and islanders had last year and they somehow both made the playoffs.

 

[Mrb1p]

Imo, management will disagree with you. If a player comes in and overtakes Suzuki (maybe Demidov?) in terms of impact, they won't be rewriting their plan. Eventually adding better players is part of the plan. Not everything hinges on Suzuki.

I'm using Suzuki because it takes a minute to list all of the players. Suzuki is at the helm of a group of players born from 99 to 02 that can't be describe as anything else but the core. Of course natural progress is going to happen. The point is, GM input is needed and has been needed for quite some time. Will I be sad if we get Marone? No, you're kidding I'll be f***ing ecstatic, he's amazing.

We can't just keep picking top 5 forever though. We need to chose a point in time we're it's go time. I think, with all the pieces the Habs have, it should be right now. Heck, I think last year we had the pieces to contend in 4-5 years. Now with Demidog and Hage? What are we waiting for?

I'll tldr but, what's better for the team, getting Demidov next year on a team that almost made the POs this year, or getting Demidov on a team that almost picked 1st this year? The question is pretty easy to answer.

A rebuild is all about building.

 

[OnTheRun]

We seem to conflate playoffs with progression a lot in this thread.

At same time, a team doesn't need to finish 24th before it can finish 20th. A linear progression shouldn't be considered to be a necessity.

 

[Mrb1p]

You LITERALLY wrote it lol

Just own your take man. I don’t write things I don’t mean and then blame others for responding to them.

Anyway…this isn’t the thread for this discussion.

But happy to continue washing you in this debate like I have in several others whenever you have time lol

I didn't write "teams that had cores built by tanking couldn't ever add any other players"

That's just something that is obvious and shouldn't be needed to be stated, yet you needed.... six? Posts to understand this?

(Well, I hope you do understand)

 

[Mrb1p]

At same time, a team doesn't need to finish 24th before it can finish 20th. A linear progression shouldn't be considered to be a necessity.

Yes that's also implied and something that doesn't need to be stated.

A team probably isn't going to go from 27th to stanley cup contender, though.

 

[JoelWarlord]

It is, you're not wrong. It's also the same as ignoring the prior seasons of accumulation. There has to be middle ground between "ground zero is Hughes" and before.

For sure but I don't think it's the same in terms of importance though. The collective impact of Price, Weber, Petry, Danault, peak Tatar, and prime Gallagher far outstrips Guhle, Roy, and Romanov/Dach plus Matheson and Gallagher's current impacts. We've added players but Slafkovsky was the very first major piece and he's 20 years old. Even getting pretty lucky and finding a fairly direct replacement for late-prime Petry with Matheson just doesn't move the needle all that much (we all saw all those bad years when Petry was our #1D).

I do appreciate Bergevin's relative restraint in the late stages and he did a good job bringing in assets over the years, but that's still all a bunch of guys who are 24 at the absolute oldest and our primary roster issue right now is we don't have good long-term veterans even after getting very lucky and having Matheson become a pretty solid direct replacement for approx 2017-2021 range Petry.

 

[sampollock]

Isn't it weird that Laine was shown at the practice smiling and everything 2 days after the injury? Maybe it's not a ACL after all, trying to be optimist here but I doubt the Habs would let Laine at the practice like that if he was out for the season.

SURE hope that is the case.

 

[Habs]

Assuming we have the typical Laine, it’s 2 pretty good lines. It’s more than what the Capitals and islanders had last year and they somehow both made the playoffs.

It's a decent top 2 lines, the bottom 2 are what kills us. Caps and Isles are better on the bottom and on the blueline. I'd suggest in net as well.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Isn't it weird that Laine was shown at the practice smiling and everything 2 days after the injury? Maybe it's not a ACL after all, trying to be optimist here but I doubt the Habs would let Laine at the practice like that if he was out for the season.

It's over bud

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840772136052342855

 

[Tabarouette]

Isn't it weird that Laine was shown at the practice smiling and everything 2 days after the injury? Maybe it's not a ACL after all, trying to be optimist here but I doubt the Habs would let Laine at the practice like that if he was out for the season.

it's a work brother, it's good for the rebuild TV show if he looks horribly injured but makes a miraculous comeback in time for game 1

 

[Captain Mountain]

My comment was a part of a pretty simple and clear discussion delineating the length of the current tank (talent banking). There was no other “hidden” implication on my side.

Damn, no shit?

Unless you think its a binary option of "tanking" and "trade every future to win now", then basically every rebuilding team was "many years ahead".

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Yes that's also implied and something that doesn't need to be stated.

A team probably isn't going to go from 27th to stanley cup contender, though.

We could easy follow the scenario of stagnating this year and finishing close to 75 points and then jumping to 90-95 points the next season. It's highly dependant on factors that are in part out of management's hands (youth coming in, injuries, youth core progression)

 

[le_sean]

It's a decent top 2 lines, the bottom 2 are what kills us. Caps and Isles are better on the bottom and on the blueline. I'd suggest in net as well.

I figured they’d be at least competitive until March this year, much like the Flyers last year, but ultimately fall short. But it was the nice step before replacing Newhook on the 2nd line with Demidov. Then it was time to be serious.

 

[417]

Isn't it weird that Laine was shown at the practice smiling and everything 2 days after the injury? Maybe it's not a ACL after all, trying to be optimist here but I doubt the Habs would let Laine at the practice like that if he was out for the season.

It is weird if there's ACL damage, even suspected, that they'd let him put ANY pressure on it so soon after the incident.

Perhaps a small, tiny glimmer of hope that there's damage to MCL and perhaps LCL, but not the major ACL.

 

[Maitz]

It is weird if there's ACL damage, even suspected, that they'd let him put ANY pressure on it so soon after the incident.

Perhaps a small, tiny glimmer of hope that there's damage to MCL and perhaps LCL, but not the major ACL.

If it's the MCL I think he could be back somewhere in December, it's usually 6-8 weeks of recovery if I am correct which in that case would be the best scenario possible

 

[Retired]

It makes no sense because you add all sorts of reductive conclusions I don't hold or have never spoken.

I speak of ebbs and flow of development, yet you describe it in a completely dishonest, opposite and immature way. You need to create all those strawmen because you are unable to argue against the actual logic I bring forth.

You bring the team over the hump by adding them year after year, developing them year after year, until you reach that treshhold where there's enough talent and depth. This paints a picture of a rollercoaster ride, with ups and downs, not the irrealistic constant progression you expect.

Do you really think we have the depth required to mitigate the inevitable injuries we get?

I am stating purposefully tanking another year or two as you suggested a few posts ago will still mean being, in two years, one of the worst teams in the nhl, with more unproven prospects. It just perpetuates “not having depth to mitigate inevitable injuries” as you say, among other things. It just transposes the problem, and I hold the belief you waste all the formative years of current youth on learning how to suck, with no winners or top end talent to emulate. Hughes rocked it by adding Laine.

I am talking about all this in the context of having a young goal scorer, probable elite talent go down before the season starts. These guys are human, are done sucking and the motivational hit does not exist in theoretical hockey forum forever-tanking prospect fetish.

Also the only reason pro sports exist in the first place is to entertain, not make us facepalm and cringe at the tv every season. They need to get good, eternal prospect fetishists can still get turned on I’m sure.

 

[LaP]

In 27 Suzuki will be 28. When are we scheduled to win exactly? 2032?

Faut ca finished un mendné la reconstruction.

2024-25 last rebuild year (draft top 10 and have 2 picks in the 1st - try to advance the 2nd pick with 2nd round picks)
2025-26 try to make the playoffs probably miss by a few points (likely draft around 12th to 15th try to advance with 2nd round picks and/or young players in a position of strength)
2026-27 make the playofs and try to pass a round or two
2027-28 go for it all in be active at deadline for a few years

Suzuki will be 28 which for a player like him is his prime (his game is not based on speed or raw skills but hockey IQ - Koivu had one of his best season at 31). Suzuki is not Gallagher or JA he wont slow down at 28. He's not braindead.

I'm really confused by your post. So being patient with the rebuild means we're never going to finish it? It makes no sense as an argument. The rebuild was never going to last 2-3 years. The rebuild started in early 2022. At the deadline this year it will be 3 years (it's not 3 years yet).

Using the excuse that we drafted players before that in the middle of the 1st round (Guhle, Caufield) again makes no sense. Teams draft players every year it doesn't mean they are in a rebuild. We were not rebuilding in 2021-2022 and anyone who argue we were is trying to rewrite history. Arguing that a rebuild should be over after just 3 years is designious.

On average i'd say it takes around 5 draft to complete a rebuild. It's been 3. Can we give KH at least a 4th one?

 

[morhilane]

It's over bud

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840772136052342855

Unless my eyes are deciving me, Laine is flexing his knee on that picture.

 

[le_sean]

Perpetual rebuild so we can become the Montreal Sabres.

 

[An0n]

Habs are not releasing info today just to spite Marinario who said they had the info yesterday.

 

[417]

If it's the MCL I think he could be back somewhere in December, it's usually 6-8 weeks of recovery if I am correct which in that case would be the best scenario possible

There's almost assuredly damage to the LCL since that the ligament on the outside of your knee.

More of a question about the other 2 at this point

 

[McGees]

So the Canadiens injury update is:
It took a season ending injury...but Laine is finally happy to come to the rink.
Sometimes all that matter is the friends you make along the way.

 

[Dagistitsyn]

Definitely done for the season. Crutches and knee brace. Not releasing info because they’re waiting on second opinion before saying his whole year is a write off. This sucks. My excitement for this season completely drained again, just like hearing Dach go down for the whole season last year.

 

[Retired]

To be fair if you pay $1200 you can get one tomororw.

more like 300-400… I only go private these days. Waiting for a colonoscopy 6 months to see if I had cancer after a doc reco was another example. No way. We put more $ on cars. A couple of burgers and fries rough uber is almost 100 nowadays so…

Also Laine, sorry.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I am stating purposefully tanking another year or two as you suggested a few posts ago will still mean being,

That's not what I said nor meant. You're still using a strawman to make a point. Do better.

in two years, one of the worst teams in the nhl, with more unproven prospects.

NO, that's again another reduction torwards absolutist conclusion. Between this year and next year, you'll have ADDED talent, added experience. You make the gap between 75 points and 90 points seem like a mountain. An exageration doesn't translate to a good argument.

It just perpetuates “not having depth to mitigate inevitable injuries” as you say, among other things. It just transposes the problem, and I hold the belief you waste all the formative years of current youth on learning how to suck, with no winners or top end talent to emulate. Hughes rocked it by adding Laine.

It doesn't perpetuate anything. It's a process and you want to ignore the hurdles of the process by believing everything can be fixed pronto. Maybe you should listen to management and then argue with them instead, because they clearly often state that they are in a wait and see situation, because they can't be entirely sure what they have on their hands.

I am talking about all this in the context of having a young goal scorer, probable elite talent go down before the season starts. These guys are human, are done sucking and the motivational hit does not exist in theoretical hockey forum forever-tanking prospect fetish.

Grow-up. Only a handful are like that, but it's easier for you to argue against a false narrative, I guess.

Also the only reason pro sports exist in the first place is to entertain, not make us facepalm and cringe at the tv every season. They need to get good, eternal prospect fetishists can still get turned on I’m sure.

They've made-up a 21 points gap in two years. You're just as extreme as those you deride, pretending there's little progress.

Youth like Hutson coming in IS entertaining.