Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[majormajor]

Also returns to 40-50 goal scorer for the CBJ. I think this would be the best case scenario on how you look at it.

I know there are some fans that don’t care to give it another go with Laine and I understand, but gifted goal scorer’s don’t grow on trees.

It's unfortunately just not a fit with where our lineup is at. So many young wingers that need the same role as Laine in order to take a step. And we only have so many lineup spots for veterans, they really have to be consistent players.

 

[VT]

It's unfortunately just not a fit with where our lineup is at. So many young wingers that need the same role as Laine in order to take a step. And we only have so many lineup spots for veterans, they really have to be consistent players.

Marchenko is only two years younger than Laine. 24 26
Chinakhov is only three years younger than Laine. 23 26

That is all.

Also, according this logic, we must trade Gaudreau, because have Johnson.

And still one question, are they better?

Jenner - Voronkov - Laine (against the best lines)
Gaudreau - Monahan - Chinakhov
Johnson - Fantilli - Marchenko

or

Chinakhov - Jenner - Laine (btw Chinakhov and Laine have great chemistry)
Gaudreau - Monahan - Marchenko
Voronkov - Fantilli - Johnson

Three strong lines. The team can play in high pace. Important, all lines must play the same time. Also Fantilli can gradually get used to the center position, there won't be so much pressure on him.

Next, Marchenko said he can be traded if the arbitration will be not ideal. All depend about words there. Of course he can sign contract soon. Johnson and Sillinger are still not signed too. And question do they want to stay, especially Sillinger if we have Monahan and Fantilli, plus Voronkov and Jenner can play center too? Btw, they all play center good.

We will see. I am not sure he changes his mind but all can be.

 

[CBJx614]

Marchenko is only two years younger than Laine. 24 26
Chinakhov is only three years younger than Laine. 23 26

That is all.

Also, according this logic, we must trade Gaudreau, because have Johnson.

And still one question, are they better?

Jenner - Voronkov - Laine (against the best lines)
Gaudreau - Monahan - Chinakhov
Johnson - Fantilli - Marchenko

or

Chinakhov - Jenner - Laine (btw Chinakhov and Laine have great chemistry)
Gaudreau - Monahan - Marchenko
Voronkov - Fantilli - Johnson

Three strong lines. The team can play in high pace. Important, all lines must play the same time. Also Fantilli can gradually get used to the center position, there won't be so much pressure on him.

Next, Marchenko said he can be traded if the arbitration will be not ideal. All depend about words there. Of course he can sign contract soon. Johnson and Sillinger are still not signed too. And question do they want to stay, especially Sillinger if we have Monahan and Fantilli, plus Voronkov and Jenner can play center too? Btw, they all play center good.

We will see. I am not sure he changes his mind but all can be.

The point he's making is that Laine has close to 500 games played, we know what he is and that's one of the best goals scorers in the game, the problem is that he's inconsistent. We can't afford guys that go on a 20 game point drought taking up valuable time that kids need to progress. Nobody is saying he's not a good player, he's just not a great fit when we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production.


At the end of the day this is a business and we have a huge question mark on what should be a building block the roster. We either have to commit that he's going to be a piece we build around or see what we can get for him to help build around the handful of other building blocks we already have.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

The point he's making is that Laine has close to 500 games played, we know what he is and that's one of the best goals scorers in the game, the problem is that he's inconsistent. We can't afford guys that go on a 20 game point drought taking up valuable time that kids need to progress. Nobody is saying he's not a good player, he's just not a great fit when we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production.

In 22-23 Laine out produced Johnny who was coming off a 115p season by a good margin. You're massively undermining Laine's offensive production in a horrible CBJ roster. The amount of players in NHL who could have out produced Johnny in that position is small, and CBJ most certainly does not have multiple young wingers who can do that

 

[CBJx614]

In 22-23 Laine out produced Johnny who was coming off a 115p season by a good margin. You're massively undermining Laine's offensive production in a horrible CBJ roster. The amount of players in NHL who could have out produced Johnny in that position is small, and CBJ most certainly does not have multiple young wingers who can do that

I'm not undermining anything, I literally called him one of the greatest goalscorers in the game today. It doesn't solve the problem that he goes through equally long sessions of not producing and then makes up for it by going through stretches of playing lights out. He's one of the streakiest players on the roster.

And I would wager if you gave Chinny as much PP time as Laine he could score as many goals.

 

[Monstershockey]

In 22-23 Laine out produced Johnny who was coming off a 115p season by a good margin. You're massively undermining Laine's offensive production in a horrible CBJ roster. The amount of players in NHL who could have out produced Johnny in that position is small, and CBJ most certainly does not have multiple young wingers who can do that

They both had 52 points after playing 55 games for each that season. Johnny also played on bad CBJ team that season, plus had to play more game because he didn't get hurt. I wouldn't say he outproduced Johnny at all. .95 to .93 ppg isn't really a wide margin.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

I'm not undermining anything, I literally called him one of the greatest goalscorers in the game today. It doesn't solve the problem that he goes through equally long sessions of not producing and then makes up for it by going through stretches of playing lights out. He's one of the streakiest players on the roster.

And I would wager if you gave Chinny as much PP time as Laine he could score as many goals.

You said: we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production. I'm not sure how else you expect me to read than that you think more than one of KJ, Chinakhov, Marchenko, Brindley can produce as well as healthy Laine does.

Goals isn't the same as production. If next years Chinny was placed to 22-23 CBJ roster with Laine's role, I do not think he'd outproduce Johnny in a million years

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

They both had 52 points after playing 55 games for each that season. Johnny also played on bad CBJ team that season, plus had to play more game because he didn't get hurt. I wouldn't say he outproduced Johnny at all. .95 to .93 ppg isn't really a wide margin.

Fair point, I recalled it being a bit bigger difference. I'll happily take back my 'by good margin' statement.

And I wasn't trying stomp on Johnny. He was in a bad position too. I just think Laine had a really really good year, and Johnny is a good comparison to make that point since he just had a career year before that season

 

[Monstershockey]

Fair point, I recalled it being a bit bigger difference. I'll happily take back my 'by good margin' statement.

And I wasn't trying stomp on Johnny. He was in a bad position too. I just think Laine had a really really good year, and Johnny is a good comparison to make that point since he just had a career year before that season

I didn't think you were bad mouthing Johnny. We just had two good players in a bad situation. There was no way Johnny was going to replicate his career year here that season. I guess I think both guys are just parts of a puzzle. I don't really count either guy as a player that will put a team on their back and carry them. Maybe for small streches here and there, but not for a full year.

 

[ViD]

I wonder if the entire overhaul of the management and coaching staff will give Laine an incentive to stay

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

I didn't think you were bad mouthing Johnny. We just had two good players in a bad situation. There was no way Johnny was going to replicate his career year here that season. I guess I think both guys are just parts of a puzzle. I don't really count either guy as a player that will put a team on their back and carry them. Maybe for small streches here and there, but not for a full year.

Yeah for sure. There's maybe like 5 players in the league who could have scored +100p in that 22-23 cbj. I think I predicted like a 90p season when Johnny joined that summer.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

he's just not a great fit when we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production.

this is simply untrue.

laine was basically a point-per-game player in his last two healthy seasons (0.973 p/gp) and had the best underlying metrics on the team.

marchenko scored at a 0.538 p/gp clip last year. chinakhov was 0.547. if you took goals that double-counted towards that (ex: chinakhov goal, marchenko assist) you end up with two guys who combined to be less productive than laine.

not to mention that they're not that much younger (about 2 years) than laine, and won't be that much cheaper once marchenko signs his next deal (folks here want to give him $6m+).

i get that he's inconsistent, but marchenko also disappears for long stretches. he's injured a lot, but so is chinakhov.

as i've been saying for a long time – all parties are better off if laine starts the season here and is given an opportunity to get his mojo back.

 

[CBJx614]

You said: we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production. I'm not sure how else you expect me to read than that you think more than one of KJ, Chinakhov, Marchenko, Brindley can produce as well as healthy Laine does.

Goals isn't the same as production. If next years Chinny was placed to 22-23 CBJ roster with Laine's role, I do not think he'd outproduce Johnny in a million years

this is simply untrue.

laine was basically a point-per-game player in his last two healthy seasons (0.973 p/gp) and had the best underlying metrics on the team.

marchenko scored at a 0.538 p/gp clip last year. chinakhov was 0.547. if you took goals that double-counted towards that (ex: chinakhov goal, marchenko assist) you end up with two guys who combined to be less productive than laine.

not to mention that they're not that much younger (about 2 years) than laine, and won't be that much cheaper once marchenko signs his next deal (folks here want to give him $6m+).

i get that he's inconsistent, but marchenko also disappears for long stretches. he's injured a lot, but so is chinakhov.

as i've been saying for a long time – all parties are better off if laine starts the season here and is given an opportunity to get his mojo back.

I'm a firm believer that under the right set of circumstances (PP1 time and a top 6 role) Chinakov can replace Laine's goal scoring alone. He's due for a breakout in a major way.

Factor in Marchenkos goal scoring ability and an uptick in TOI and opportunity for KJ, I could see the three of them matching his 20-30 assists over the course of the season as well.

All for way under 9M/season.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

I'm a firm believer that under the right set of circumstances (PP1 time and a top 6 role) Chinakov can replace Laine's goal scoring alone. He's due for a breakout in a major way.

Factor in Marchenkos goal scoring ability and an uptick in TOI and opportunity for KJ, I could see the three of them matching his 20-30 assists over the course of the season as well.

All for way under 9M/season.

Ah, so you mean that they together can match the lost production. Makes more sense now. I don't really think replacing quality with quantity is a great way of building a contending team, but I'll just shut up and take a skip on that debate

 

[Viqsi]

I'm a firm believer that under the right set of circumstances (PP1 time and a top 6 role) Chinakov can replace Laine's goal scoring alone. He's due for a breakout in a major way.

Factor in Marchenkos goal scoring ability and an uptick in TOI and opportunity for KJ, I could see the three of them matching his 20-30 assists over the course of the season as well.

All for way under 9M/season.

I'm not sure why this is an either/or proposition, myself.

 

[VT]

The point he's making is that Laine has close to 500 games played, we know what he is and that's one of the best goals scorers in the game, the problem is that he's inconsistent. We can't afford guys that go on a 20 game point drought taking up valuable time that kids need to progress. Nobody is saying he's not a good player, he's just not a great fit when we have guys who are much younger, cheaper and can bring the same production.


At the end of the day this is a business and we have a huge question mark on what should be a building block the roster. We either have to commit that he's going to be a piece we build around or see what we can get for him to help build around the handful of other building blocks we already have.

Do you really think these players are better?
Laine played poorly right after the injury, it has nothing to do with inconsistency. Just like Chinakhov when he came back from injury. Every body is different.
He doesn't fit here? Tell that to Gaudreau's and especially Werenski's face. Zach in particular was saying something completely different.

I'm a firm believer that under the right set of circumstances (PP1 time and a top 6 role) Chinakov can replace Laine's goal scoring alone. He's due for a breakout in a major way.

Factor in Marchenkos goal scoring ability and an uptick in TOI and opportunity for KJ, I could see the three of them matching his 20-30 assists over the course of the season as well.

All for way under 9M/season.

Laine's game wasn't built on the PP, just look at the stats. Besides, we had a horrible PP with Panarin as well. It all depends on the coaches.

Btw, I think Yegor can be a great sniper if only about goals. Also he has excellent for/backchecking, can play in the PK. I like him and hope he will play more.

 

[VT]

They both had 52 points after playing 55 games for each that season. Johnny also played on bad CBJ team that season, plus had to play more game because he didn't get hurt. I wouldn't say he outproduced Johnny at all. .95 to .93 ppg isn't really a wide margin.

Unless Patrik had to return to form after his injury, which Johnny didn't have to do. He also played mostly with Roslovic at center. And Jack is a worse center than Boone.

 

[domi28]

In the past four seasons Laine is 191st in the league in scoring and 134th in goal scoring. We can argue about scoring rates and cheap shots and ppg seasons and bad CBJ teams and whatever else but as a whole Laine simply hasn't been good enough during his time in Columbus. Add in his $8.7m cap hit and asking for a trade and to me it's time to cut bait. If that means taking back a bad contract and getting picks with heavy conditions then so be it.

 

[squashmaple]

In the past four seasons Laine is 191st in the league in scoring and 134th in goal scoring. We can argue about scoring rates and cheap shots and ppg seasons and bad CBJ teams and whatever else but as a whole Laine simply hasn't been good enough during his time in Columbus. Add in his $8.7m cap hit and asking for a trade and to me it's time to cut bait. If that means taking back a bad contract and getting picks with heavy conditions then so be it.

So they should take on another bad contract just to do it? How does that make any logical sense? For example, gifting Montreal by taking their Anderson or Gallagher albatrosses. Signed for slightly less and much longer. Far worse than just simply keeping Laine for two years.

 

[VT]

In the past four seasons Laine is 191st in the league in scoring and 134th in goal scoring. We can argue about scoring rates and cheap shots and ppg seasons and bad CBJ teams and whatever else but as a whole Laine simply hasn't been good enough during his time in Columbus. Add in his $8.7m cap hit and asking for a trade and to me it's time to cut bait. If that means taking back a bad contract and getting picks with heavy conditions then so be it.

It's a "logical" step. If you take away the first, regular season, he played fewer games than other players in the other three, with Roslovic and Jenner as his centers in two of them, and defensemen Peeke, Gudbranson and Berni in 2022/23. Still, he had more goals in 5v5 play than Reinhart in the 2021/22 and 2022/23 seasons.

You can only rank players by points if they are on the same level.

 

[Monstershockey]

Unless Patrik had to return to form after his injury, which Johnny didn't have to do. He also played mostly with Roslovic at center. And Jack is a worse center than Boone.

There is always some explanation for Laine.

 

[CBJx614]

Ah, so you mean that they together can match the lost production. Makes more sense now. I don't really think replacing quality with quantity is a great way of building a contending team, but I'll just shut up and take a skip on that debate

When all of those players are young kids are their TOI is limited by the players above them, it can be. They are all due for more TOI. How many GDTs did we rip on Vincent for not playing the kids enough? And that was WITHOUT Laine in the lineup for a good chunk of the season.

I'm not sure why this is an either/or proposition, myself.

I don't mean to imply that it is, there's a good and more than likely chance that he will start the season on the roster, but only if DW can't find a worthwhile trade for him. The longer this goes on the more I feel like all we're going to get back our picks and prospects and probably a short term cap dump

So they should take on another bad contract just to do it? How does that make any logical sense? For example, gifting Montreal by taking their Anderson or Gallagher albatrosses. Signed for slightly less and much longer. Far worse than just simply keeping Laine for two years.

I can't see DW taking on a longer contract in the situation. There's no guarantee that we'll even need to take back a dump. GMs all know what he is capable of, of course they are going to try and bend DW over a barrel and try to pay as little as possible for Laine.

 

[CBJx614]

Do you really think these players are better?
Laine played poorly right after the injury, it has nothing to do with inconsistency. Just like Chinakhov when he came back from injury. Every body is different.
He doesn't fit here? Tell that to Gaudreau's and especially Werenski's face. Zach in particular was saying something completely different.


Laine's game wasn't built on the PP, just look at the stats. Besides, we had a horrible PP with Panarin as well. It all depends on the coaches.

Btw, I think Yegor can be a great sniper if only about goals. Also he has excellent for/backchecking, can play in the PK. I like him and hope he will play more.

You're not factoring in the part where Laine asked to be traded. Yeah a new GM and coach could and likely should help. But if Waddell talks to him and Laine still asks to be traded none of that matters.

 

[VT]

There is always some explanation for Laine.

90% players have similar problems. That's why I don't notice Chinakhov stats, he had only 29 points in 53 games. Yegor was injured and had to return his shape first. This same Nyquist in 2021/22 season when he started bad because didn't play season before. Etc.

 

[jonu]

In the past four seasons Laine is 191st in the league in scoring and 134th in goal scoring. We can argue about scoring rates and cheap shots and ppg seasons and bad CBJ teams and whatever else but as a whole Laine simply hasn't been good enough during his time in Columbus. Add in his $8.7m cap hit and asking for a trade and to me it's time to cut bait. If that means taking back a bad contract and getting picks with heavy conditions then so be it.

Yet he is 53rd in goals per game and 83rd in points per game from that four season span.

If we change the timeframe to include his production only from the beginning of his current contract, he is 53rd in goals per game and 78th in point per game for last two seasons.

Now if we cherry pick a little and ignore his first season in CBJ, he is 40th in goals per game and 58th in points per game.

With the amount of games he has played since signing his current contract, no he is not worth the 8.7m. But if he was healthy and scored at the rate we have seen him to be able to in 21-22 and 22-23, he would be worth it.
Then again, if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike.

tldr;;;;
Would be stupid to just "cut bait" and take a deal to trade a first liner, especially when it is highly unlikely the said player would not bring his best game to the end, unlike another diva did on this same team.