Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Vapaatunnus]

I don't understand people who want to commit suicide. I've been through a lot of difficult things that the public would like to talk about. But one must always find the strength to find the light at the end of the tunnel. ALWAYS

It is a train.

 

[Youngguns1380]

I don't understand people who want to commit suicide. I've been through a lot of difficult things that the public would like to talk about. But one must always find the strength to find the light at the end of the tunnel. ALWAYS

I understand your sentiment. I had to deal with my cousin (my best friend) committing suicide and that shook me for years with the guilt of not seeing the signs (having talked to him 30 minutes prior).

I have educated myself over the years (no expert) and it's not a battle of will but everything collapsing around them with no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I don't understand people who want to commit suicide. I've been through a lot of difficult things that the public would like to talk about. But one must always find the strength to find the light at the end of the tunnel. ALWAYS

Most of us don't understand it, that's why it's important to have it be something that is talked about.

I understand your sentiment. I had to deal with my cousin (my best friend) committing suicide and that shook me for years with the guilt of not seeing the signs (having talked to him 30 minutes prior).

I have educated myself over the years (no expert) and it's not a battle of will but everything collapsing around them with no light at the end of the tunnel.

This is a very important thing to know about the subject.

 

[VT]

I understand your sentiment. I had to deal with my cousin (my best friend) committing suicide and that shook me for years with the guilt of not seeing the signs (having talked to him 30 minutes prior).

I have educated myself over the years (no expert) and it's not a battle of will but everything collapsing around them with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Look at war/conflict. How many people have lost family, even children, family, friends, houses or apartments... . But these people want to live. Or if mothers accept about children.

I understand people with severe illnesses like schizophrenia. But most people in wheelchairs also want to live.

I had big problems in my life. But even my daughter's doctors and teachers were shocked that I never had mental problems. And why? People have to fight and not capitulate. It's not a fail-back.

 

[VT]

Most of us don't understand it, that's why it's important to have it be something that is talked about.

Help yes, but also explain suicide is not solution, they must fight.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Help yes, but also explain suicide is not solution, they must fight.

I cannot reinforce enough the notion that, as youngguns said, it's not a battle of will. Mental illness is not something you can overcome be sheer force of your own mind, any more than, say, a person with cerebral palsy, can will themselves to not require mobility assistance.

 

[VT]

I cannot reinforce enough the notion that, as youngguns said, it's not a battle of will. Mental illness is not something you can overcome be sheer force of your own mind, any more than, say, a person with cerebral palsy, can will themselves to not require mobility assistance.

We can say it if someone has schizophrenia or does not know what a man does. But not if can fight.
I know people with serious psychic problems but they never think about suicide.

Maybe because I grew up in a different culture, when people approached their problems in a completely different way, they were mentally stronger I have similar ideas. And now it's just psychologists and pills.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

We can say it if someone has schizophrenia or does not know what a man does. But not if can fight.
I know people with serious psychic problems but they never think about suicide.

Maybe because I grew up in a different culture, when people approached their problems in a completely different way, they were mentally stronger I have similar ideas. And now it's just psychologists and pills.

Well this response is exactly why it's a topic that continues to need to be talked about. Telling someone with a mental illness to be mentally stronger is like telling someone with a physical illness to just get physically stronger. Or maybe the sticking point is you not acknowledging that contemplating suicide is a mental illness.

 

[NotCommitted]

I don't understand people who want to commit suicide. I've been through a lot of difficult things that the public would like to talk about. But one must always find the strength to find the light at the end of the tunnel. ALWAYS

It's not logical and it's not something you can really "understand" because it doesn't usually make any sense.

I think anyone can get to that place if you put the through the "right" life circumstances and issues, but some people just seem to be born with a propensity for it. Also depression taken to extreme is not just feeling down and depressed, it can become a psychotic state and then all bets are off.

While some people might "want" to commit suicide, I don't think it's usually about wanting it, quite the opposite.

Also it's not always strictly mental and the line can be blurry, like if you're experiencing depression as an aftermath to concussion (ie. brain damage), is that mental or physical or both? Lot of people suffering from CTE end up killing themselves, like the hockey player mentioned in that article and often it's only discovered while performing autopsy that they had CTE.

Depression doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the severity of life shit you have gone through, it can be an insidious thing that slowly creeps on you, extending it's tendrils until one day they have you in their grip and you find yourself in the depths of depression, with no apparent reason. Judging yourself for being depressed for "no reason" is about the worst thing you can do in that situation and why it's important to get rid of the stigma around mental illnesses because the longer you try to just supress it, the worse it tends to get because the wall between your inner experience of life and what you show to other people gets thicker and thicker, until you are trapped in an isolated hell of your own.

Also we are emotional and social animals, we are connected with each other so one way to look at it, which I think might be sometimes helpful, is that the individual suffering from depression is just the symptom of a problem that doesn't necessarily begin and end with that individual alone. I believe that if everyone was perfectly in touch with themselves and their emotions, able to accept themselves and live their life true to their heart, no one would get depressed unless they had brain damage, some serious hormonal imbalance or other physical reason that can be tracked down to a malfunctioning organ.

 

[NotCommitted]

Maybe because I grew up in a different culture, when people approached their problems in a completely different way, they were mentally stronger I have similar ideas. And now it's just psychologists and pills.

I would guess your country actually has about 10 suicides per 100k population, unless you grew up in Russia in which case you can double that.

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a pretty interesting map, it seems quite a few places where I would imagine psychologist and pills are not that easy to come by have suicide rates through the roof. Yet many places with lot of psychologists and lots of pills have low rates. And many such places have high rates. The problem might have variety of reasons behind it and not just be a "mentally weak culture" issue, including (but not limited to) all sorts of environmental factors, genes, culture, alcohol comsumption and what have you. Pretty much universally males are at least twice as likely to commit suicide than females, and in most places the difference is even bigger than that. Are males mentally weaker than females? Maybe they are. But if that's the case, is that because they are not told enough to man up, or because in many places expressing emotions like grief or fear is seen as a weakness in man? Or is it because they are built differently physically? Or both, or neither?

 

[ProfessorFink22]

It's not logical and it's not something you can really "understand" because it doesn't usually make any sense.

I think anyone can get to that place if you put the through the "right" life circumstances and issues, but some people just seem to be born with a propensity for it. Also depression taken to extreme is not just feeling down and depressed, it can become a psychotic state and then all bets are off.

While some people might "want" to commit suicide, I don't think it's usually about wanting it, quite the opposite.

Also it's not always strictly mental and the line can be blurry, like if you're experiencing depression as an aftermath to concussion (ie. brain damage), is that mental or physical or both? Lot of people suffering from CTE end up killing themselves, like the hockey player mentioned in that article and often it's only discovered while performing autopsy that they had CTE.

Depression doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the severity of life shit you have gone through, it can be an insidious thing that slowly creeps on you, extending it's tendrils until one day they have you in their grip and you find yourself in the depths of depression, with no apparent reason. Judging yourself for being depressed for "no reason" is about the worst thing you can do in that situation and why it's important to get rid of the stigma around mental illnesses because the longer you try to just supress it, the worse it tends to get because the wall between your inner experience of life and what you show to other people gets thicker and thicker, until you are trapped in an isolated hell of your own.

Also we are emotional and social animals, we are connected with each other so one way to look at it, which I think might be sometimes helpful, is that the individual suffering from depression is just the symptom of a problem that doesn't necessarily begin and end with that individual alone. I believe that if everyone was perfectly in touch with themselves and their emotions, able to accept themselves and live their life true to their heart, no one would get depressed unless they had brain damage, some serious hormonal imbalance or other physical reason that can be tracked down to a malfunctioning organ.

Came for the meaningless hockey-trade drivel, stayed for the existential philosophy. Good post.

There is clear research that shows telling a person facing severe depression to, "toughen up", or "just fight harder" is actually harmful to them. Generally, it adds more guilt and negative feelings to their already overloaded, often confused brains.

When someone very close to me experienced depression, using logic or reason when talking to them was not helpful, as silly as that sounds. Empathy and attempting to understand is more helpful. I did a lot of research and even saw a therapist myself about it, learning how to help them and how to handle it while also protecting my own mental health. I suggest (hope) we all show more care than telling a person to just "have will power" when they have those struggles. It's an incredibly complex thing.

 

[VT]

I would guess your country actually has about 10 suicides per 100k population, unless you grew up in Russia in which case you can double that.

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a pretty interesting map, it seems quite a few places where I would imagine psychologist and pills are not that easy to come by have suicide rates through the roof. Yet many places with lot of psychologists and lots of pills have low rates. And many such places have high rates. The problem might have variety of reasons behind it and not just be a "mentally weak culture" issue, including (but not limited to) all sorts of environmental factors, genes, culture, alcohol comsumption and what have you. Pretty much universally males are at least twice as likely to commit suicide than females, and in most places the difference is even bigger than that. Are males mentally weaker than females? Maybe they are. But if that's the case, is that because they are not told enough to man up, or because in many places expressing emotions like grief or fear is seen as a weakness in man? Or is it because they are built differently physically? Or both, or neither?

I grew up in still socialistic Czechoslovakia. People were other.

Well this response is exactly why it's a topic that continues to need to be talked about. Telling someone with a mental illness to be mentally stronger is like telling someone with a physical illness to just get physically stronger. Or maybe the sticking point is you not acknowledging that contemplating suicide is a mental illness.

Of course we must help these people and we must say about it. But think how we should really help them and not what is now.

You are mixing apples with pears, also you've forgotten that physically ill people exercise too. Actually, my daughter has been in a wheelchair for 20 years and I know a lot of such people, so I know this theme.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Of course we must help these people and we must say about it. But think how we should really help them and not what is now.

You are mixing apples with pears, also you've forgotten that physically ill people exercise too. Actually, my daughter has been in a wheelchair for 20 years and I know a lot of such people, so I know this theme.

It's not mix-matching at all. Illness is illness.

And of course physically ill people exercise - and I'm sure you are an encouraging parent to your daughter. But telling them to suck it up and be physically stronger does not cure their illness. That's the point. It is the same with mental illness. People do not get cured of their mental illness by being told to get mentally stronger. I'm not the only person saying this in this thread, even.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Came for the meaningless hockey-trade drivel,

This is what unites us.

 

[VT]

It's not mix-matching at all. Illness is illness.

And of course physically ill people exercise - and I'm sure you are an encouraging parent to your daughter. But telling them to suck it up and be physically stronger does not cure their illness. That's the point. It is the same with mental illness. People do not get cured of their mental illness by being told to get mentally stronger. I'm not the only person saying this in this thread, even.

I say that it is necessary to work with those people, but really help, find the right things for their recovery, and also carefully explain to them that suicide is not an option, but the opposite.

 

[EspenK]

Look at war/conflict. How many people have lost family, even children, family, friends, houses or apartments... . But these people want to live. Or if mothers accept about children.

I understand people with severe illnesses like schizophrenia. But most people in wheelchairs also want to live.

I had big problems in my life. But even my daughter's doctors and teachers were shocked that I never had mental problems. And why? People have to fight and not capitulate. It's not a fail-back.

Help yes, but also explain suicide is not solution, they must fight.

We can say it if someone has schizophrenia or does not know what a man does. But not if can fight.
I know people with serious psychic problems but they never think about suicide.

Maybe because I grew up in a different culture, when people approached their problems in a completely different way, they were mentally stronger I have similar ideas. And now it's just psychologists and pills.

You need to re-adjust your thinking to understand all the explanations given to these comments.
Simply put you'll never understand and if you look to try and understand you are fighting a losing battle.

My son died by suicide.He was bipolar and at the end was battling severe depression. He finally had had enough.

My wife and I went to support groups and survivors always wanted to know why? Unless there was a note left I doubt they ever learned why. And chances are good even a note would not have explained the pain the deceased was feeling.

Quit trying to understand and consider yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with whatever pain finally push people who die by suicide over the edge.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

He doesn't know anything, it's just a rehash of Laine getting scratched and going into the PAP.

And what appears to be conjecture that the 2 are directly related.

 

[NotCommitted]

I grew up in still socialistic Czechoslovakia. People were other.

Maybe so but I really doubt it resulted in lower suicide rates. I couldn't find data prior to year 2000, but suicide rates have been declining since then in both Czech and Slovakia.

This is about Soviet Union, so might or might not have any relevance -
"The suicide rate in the former Soviet Union rose from 17.1 per 100,000 inhabitants in 1965 to 29.6 in 1984. In regions of long-standing traditional lifestyles, strong religious faith and multi-generation families (the Caucasus and central Asia), the suicide rate was low, whereas in regions with sociopolitical antagonisms (Baltic States) and forced social changes (Russia), it was high."

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I say that it is necessary to work with those people, but really help, find the right things for their recovery, and also carefully explain to them that suicide is not an option, but the opposite.

And I say telling someone with a mental illness to "get mentally stronger" is not helping.

But I'm going to bow out of this conversation because Espen's post says everything much more eloquently and with personal history. You are either going to trust that he is credible on this topic or you aren't, I guess.

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

Quit trying to understand and consider yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with whatever pain finally push people who die by suicide over the edge.

This x100.

"You don't know what you've got, until it's gone."

 

[VT]

Maybe so but I really doubt it resulted in lower suicide rates. I couldn't find data prior to year 2000, but suicide rates have been declining since then in both Czech and Slovakia.

This is about Soviet Union, so might or might not have any relevance -
"The suicide rate in the former Soviet Union rose from 17.1 per 100,000 inhabitants in 1965 to 29.6 in 1984. In regions of long-standing traditional lifestyles, strong religious faith and multi-generation families (the Caucasus and central Asia), the suicide rate was low, whereas in regions with sociopolitical antagonisms (Baltic States) and forced social changes (Russia), it was high."

The only statistics you can trust are those you falsified yourself. Winston Churchill

 

[Nanabijou]

While this has been an unexpected and fascinating discussion on a topic that needs more light shed on it...

I'll bring this back to Laine and say that Kuznetsov is now off the books in Carolina so the cap room to fit Laine in is more feasible going forward.

 

[VT]

You need to re-adjust your thinking to understand all the explanations given to these comments.
Simply put you'll never understand and if you look to try and understand you are fighting a losing battle.

My son died by suicide.He was bipolar and at the end was battling severe depression. He finally had had enough.

My wife and I went to support groups and survivors always wanted to know why? Unless there was a note left I doubt they ever learned why. And chances are good even a note would not have explained the pain the deceased was feeling.

Quit trying to understand and consider yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with whatever pain finally push people who die by suicide over the edge.

My condolences. Also, I can't no longer possible to discuss with you, because it would be bad on my part.

If you look at what I have written, you would see that I have ruled out schizophrenia and similar diseases. But there are many people who will make it such hard diseases (they can be cure) or even because they will lose their jobs and so on. And that's exactly what I don't understand.

I will not discuss this theme more.

 

[VT]

Ok, and do they even think when they offer such trades? And what about Stamkos, who is dependent on the PP?

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/columbus-blue-jackets/latest-news/trade-proposal-has-patrik-laine-headed-to-the-nashville-predators

 

[NotCommitted]

My son died by suicide.He was bipolar and at the end was battling severe depression. He finally had had enough.

I'm so sorry to hear that, both for you and your son and I don't mean that with pity. Some things there are just no words for and some things we just have no control over no matter how hard we wished we did.