Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[MAROONSRoad]

After all this time it is hard to believe that anyone thinks that the NHL will relocate this team. The only certainty is that the NHL has not relocated this team when it has had the opportunities. Speculation that the NHL is going to relocate the team goes contrary to the past actions of the league in regards to the franchise.

The League has not had opportunities to relocate this team. It has had one opportunity and that was when the NHL's sublease was up after last season. At that time the NHL gave the COG an ultimatum: provide $25 million into an escrow account that we can draw upon or else we will relocate the team effective immediately. The COG agreed and in exchange the NHL granted the Coyotes another season in Glendale and until December 31, 2010 to find an owner that would keep the team in Glendale. Beginning 2011, the NHL will have their 2nd opportunity to relocate the team if the franchise has not been sold to an interest that agrees to keep the team in Glendale.

GHOST

 

[leafs4cup]

After all this time it is hard to believe that anyone thinks that the NHL will relocate this team. The only certainty is that the NHL has not relocated this team when it has had the opportunities. Speculation that the NHL is going to relocate the team goes contrary to the past actions of the league in regards to the franchise.

I agree with you 100%. Myself being from winnipeg do not see this team moving at this time. On the other hand I truly beleive that this whole thing is really making the NHL look at other alternatives IMO, they have a real serious problem with a few teams that are bleeding heavy! Phoenix will survive but their troubles aren,t going away either. They can,t draw fans even with a good team. Islanders and thrashers are hurtin bad, 7500 at islanders game the other night,NHL has its work cut out that,s for sure.I don,t wish ill will for anyone to lose their team,but I also think that for the first time in a long time with the salary cap and CDN dollar almost par that they are looking towards canada for reloc if need be. I would not of thought this way even a few years ago but just some of the Vibes coming out of NHL and some of their responses have changed in tone! I,m not saying anything will happen but the NHL has had serious talks with Winnipeg TNSE and QUEBEC and they are very much on the radar,not just rumours but facts.

 

[LadyStanley]

A reminder... Until we're up to 900+ posts in this thread, there's no need to provide suggestions for the next title. (PM a mod if you must; don't clutter the thread.)

Let's keep this on topic to what is (or isn't) happening/announcing WRT the sale process/lease issues, etc.

 

[peter sullivan]

After all this time it is hard to believe that anyone thinks that the NHL will relocate this team. The only certainty is that the NHL has not relocated this team when it has had the opportunities. Speculation that the NHL is going to relocate the team goes contrary to the past actions of the league in regards to the franchise.

i agree that it is pretty clear that the NHL doesnt want to move the team....it is also pretty clear that the market has performed so poorly that they have had to go to hell and back to find someone willing to buy it from them....the jury is still out on their success.

there is only so much the NHL can do....if nobody on the entire earth is willing to buy the team and keep it in phoenix then it has to move...it seems that after 2 years of looking, matty is the last man standing....if he cant get what he wants in subsidies from glendale, the team is gone, even if that is not what the NHL wants....that is the reality.

do you really believe that if matty cant squeeze glendale to his liking that the NHL will allow them to start back at square one?

 

[RR]

Yeah that seems to be the case. So why not approve him at these meeting? They approved reinsdorf before he even had an mou.

Why are they waiting for the lease agreement to approve the owner this time? If bog approval really only means approval of his bank account and has nothing to do with how he will finance the operations of the team, then why would he not get that formality out of the way as soon as possible?

You would think they would like to know if he has a relocation clause or not....or that his plan will be sustainable and they can put the issue to bed once and for all.

If Moyes as owner was kept apprised during the BK of negotiations between JR and COG -- and that seems to be the case since details of the negotiations were leaked by Moyes' legal team -- I'm sure the league as the current owner is privy to details of any negotiations between COG and MH. The only way I can't see that being the case is if there was in fact an agreement-in-principle between JR and COG in place when his offer was being delivered to Moyes the day of the BK. How else would Moyes have had access to then leak the information? Plus, the league was well aware of the details of the JR and IEH MOU's before they went before the City Council last summer for approval.

As to JRs BOG approval, probably part of the legal strategy to block the sale to Balsillie. If you remember the league's position during the BK was it had offer from JR; he had agreement-in-principle with the COG; and he had received BOG approval while Balsillie had been rejected. "So you see, Judge Baum, you can't accept Balsillie's bid. We have a local offer to buy, a lease deal in principle, and an approved owner."

After all this time it is hard to believe that anyone thinks that the NHL will relocate this team. The only certainty is that the NHL has not relocated this team when it has had the opportunities. Speculation that the NHL is going to relocate the team goes contrary to the past actions of the league in regards to the franchise.

Obviously, I hope you're right. But I don't have as much faith in the COG that it can bring this thing in for a landing.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Damien Cox suggests Hulsizer is worth just $300 million:

All of these things will be of interest to the executive board, plus hard facts on whether Hulsizer — whose personal wealth is relatively modest at an estimated $300 million — is capable of supporting the losses of the ’Yotes if the team continues to spurt red ink.

Just around the corner, meanwhile, are two key dates. Glendale city council meets Dec. 14 to finalize any deal it may have with Hulsizer — getting a rubber stamp of approval ahead of time from the NHL would no doubt aid in that process — while on Dec. 31 the league is free to begin talking to non-Phoenix interests about a potential sale and relocation of the team.

Clearly, the NHL wants the Hulsizer bid to be successful. But that was the case with Jerry Reinsdorf, at one point, and with Ice Edge Holdings, and yet both fell through.

So Hulsizer needs to deliver answers the executive committee wants to hear on Monday. Other teams won’t just be interested in a solution; with so many other teams potentially in play, they want a solution that lasts.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...-owners-meet-while-rich-and-poor-look-to-sell

GHOST

 

[htpwn]

Damien Cox suggests Hulsizer is worth just $300 million:



http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...-owners-meet-while-rich-and-poor-look-to-sell

GHOST

That's an interesting revelation if true. He would be spending over half of his personal wealth on a team that has never been out of the red.

 

[ATHF]

That's an interesting revelation if true. He would be spending over half of his personal wealth on a team that has never been out of the red.

No wonder he's bringing in investors....and likely wanting to have losses guaranteed....and likely wanting to have some type of arrangement to be able to sell without having to repay any of the money that the COG sinks into this pit of a franchise.

If he's really only estimated at $300 million, that casts a whole new shadow on if he can even pull this deal together or not and makes it a lot more plausible that he's trying to beg down the NHL's asking price, something the NHL has repeatedly said that they aren't budging on.

 

[RR]

That's an interesting revelation if true. He would be spending over half of his personal wealth on a team that has never been out of the red.

No wonder he's bringing in investors....and likely wanting to have losses guaranteed....and likely wanting to have some type of arrangement to be able to sell without having to repay any of the money that the COG sinks into this pit of a franchise.

If he's really only estimated at $300 million, that casts a whole new shadow on if he can even pull this deal together or not and makes it a lot more plausible that he's trying to beg down the NHL's asking price, something the NHL has repeatedly said that they aren't budging on.

Considering Cox wrote in the same article that...

1) ..."It’s hard to imagine what the first question aimed at Michael Hulsizer might be."

2) ..."after all have looked at the books of the Phoenix Coyotes, noted the $20 million a month loss..."

3) ..."Glendale city council meets Dec. 14 to finalize any deal it may have with Hulsizer."

4) ..."while on Dec. 31 the league is free to begin talking to non-Phoenix interests about a potential sale and relocation of the team..."

why would you even think this "revelation" is true?

This is a great example of why there are 37 threads on this topic. I hope we don't get to 39 or 40 but, if we do, I'm sure we'll be reading as fact that MH is "worth a modest $300M" whether we know it to be true or not.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Considering Cox wrote in the same article that...

1) ..."It’s hard to imagine what the first question aimed at Michael Hulsizer might be."

2) ..."after all have looked at the books of the Phoenix Coyotes, noted the $20 million a month loss..."

3) ..."Glendale city council meets Dec. 14 to finalize any deal it may have with Hulsizer."

4) ..."while on Dec. 31 the league is free to begin talking to non-Phoenix interests about a potential sale and relocation of the team..."

why would you even think this "revelation" is true?

Yes he made a few errors, but does that mean he pulled the $300 MM figure out of a hat? Or that he made up the idea that perhaps Hulsizer isn't that wealthy? The idea that MH may have to put together a group of 8-10 investors to get this deal done does not exactly inspire confidence.

GHOST

 

[RR]

Yes he made a few errors, but does that mean he pulled the $300 MM figure out of a hat? Or that he made up the idea that perhaps Hulsizer isn't that wealthy?

GHOST

Does he indicate he has a source? Named, or unnamed? When you make a claim like that, shouldn't you let your reader know where it's coming from? Or, should we just be left to guess? Or worse, just trust him on that one and let the others slide?

Did he pull $300M out of a hat? Did previous reports that Hulsizer's wealth "dwarfed" that of Reinsdorf come out of a hat? Why believe one, not the other?

 

[htpwn]

Does he indicate he has a source? Named, or unnamed? When you make a claim like that, shouldn't you let your reader know where it's coming from? Or, should we just be left to guess? Or worse, just trust him on that one and let the others slide?

Did he pull $300M out of a hat? Did previous reports that Hulsizer's wealth "dwarfed" that of Reinsdorf come out of a hat? Why believe one, not the other?

Ask him yourself...

http://twitter.com/damospin

 

[RR]

Ask him yourself...

http://twitter.com/damospin

Don't need to. AFAIAC his inaccurate reporting speaks for itself.

 

[CGG]

I see people still think Hulsy is going to save the Coyotes? Why isn't the NHL BOG going to approve him as an owner coming up this week? Answer: He's lining himself up to buy another team down the road (ie Atlanta) and at this point he, along with everyone else in the world, knows that Phoenix is hopeless. Come on, he isn't even meeting the entire BOG, just the executive committee.

The only counter to the "NHL is doing this only for appearances to make it look like Glendale is the bad guy" argument is "Why is Hulsizer involved, what's in it for him"? Another team down the road, that's what's in it for him.

If they were really angling to close a purchase of Phoenix by the end of the year, the BOG wouldn't punt on approving the guy, they'd approve him. That would put more pressure on the COG to get the lease done. But of course they can't actually get a lease done because he doesn't really want to buy the team. So make it look like Hulsy and the NHL are trying their best, then Dec 31 hits and the team is moved. Husly resurfaces months or years down the road when the next lousy franchise is up for sale.

 

[gollybass]

I see people still think Hulsy is going to save the Coyotes? Why isn't the NHL BOG going to approve him as an owner coming up this week?

because the lease is not finalized

 

[Whileee]

Can I offer for the next thread "Into the breach once again, my friends"

After all this time it is hard to believe that anyone thinks that the NHL will relocate this team. The only certainty is that the NHL has not relocated this team when it has had the opportunities. Speculation that the NHL is going to relocate the team goes contrary to the past actions of the league in regards to the franchise.

At this point, it is not so much the NHL's motivation, but whether the City of Glendale and Hulsizer can agree on a lease that the NHL can abide. If Hulsizer needs lease provisions that Glendale can't support, I think the game is over in Glendale. There would be nothing much more that the NHL could do. As Gollybass reminds us, the lease is not finalized yet (see below). Once the whole thing is settled either way, my suggested title thread is "The Song is Over" (courtesy of The Who, album "Who's Next").

because the lease is not finalized

 

[David_99]

I'm gone for 3 weeks and come back to find nothing's progressed!? Shocking.

I believe the word you are searching for is "imminent"

A reminder... Until we're up to 900+ posts in this thread, there's no need to provide suggestions for the next title. (PM a mod if you must; don't clutter the thread.)

Damn, if we ever get to 40... who'm I kidding? When we get to 40, I had a zinger about a guy named Moses.

because the lease is not finalized

Maybe they have questions about his business plan and want to meet with him as a group before giving him the thumbs up.

 

[RECCE]

Ask him yourself...

http://twitter.com/damospin

Don't need to. AFAIAC his inaccurate reporting speaks for itself.

I will, I'm curious that way.

 

[ATHF]

Considering Cox wrote in the same article that...

1) ..."It’s hard to imagine what the first question aimed at Michael Hulsizer might be."

2) ..."after all have looked at the books of the Phoenix Coyotes, noted the $20 million a month loss..."

3) ..."Glendale city council meets Dec. 14 to finalize any deal it may have with Hulsizer."

4) ..."while on Dec. 31 the league is free to begin talking to non-Phoenix interests about a potential sale and relocation of the team..."

why would you even think this "revelation" is true?

This is a great example of why there are 37 threads on this topic. I hope we don't get to 39 or 40 but, if we do, I'm sure we'll be reading as fact that MH is "worth a modest $300M" whether we know it to be true or not.

Note that I said "If" he's only worth $300 million, it would make a lot of sense as to why he's bringing in investors after initially being a singular owner, as well as the fact that someone worth substantially more than that would be able to shoulder the full purchase price without looking for a discount from the NHL. Someone worth 800 or 900 million would not be scoffing at an extra $5 mil on the purchase price as some reports are indicating how far apart Hulsizer and the NHL are on the price that was supposed to have already been "agreed upon".

Throw in that someone that has considerably more money than $300 mil wouldn't be "allegedly" looking for handouts from the COG to offset losses to stay in business while the asset he believes so much in turns around and you can see why people would be a little more willing to believe that he's worth that than that he's worth three or four times more. That's not even considering that someone with a sight more than an alleged $300 million would likely already have had this team purchased, lease agreements or otherwise.

Money makes nearly every problem go away if you have enough of it. It buys you better lawyers for negotiations so that they're done with quicker and aren't drawn out over every single detail. Money means that you can avoid having to have the COG guarantee CFD income (if that's the sticking point everyone seems to believe it is) and that you can wait for the tree to start bearing fruit before picking it instead of trying to eat the fruit before you've even planted a seed.

It's really starting to feel like IEH all over again with someone saying the right things to the media and putting up the right front, just without enough money to close the deal on their own. Remember when everyone swore up and down that IEH were going to be a breath of fresh air in ownership and that there was no reason to doubt their finances? It's starting to seem very familiar this time around as well. Imminent....

 

[Whileee]

Obviously, I hope you're right. But I don't have as much faith in the COG that it can bring this thing in for a landing.

Any insights into upcoming city council meetings in Glendale? I note that the agenda for tomorrow's Workshop includes the usual update on the Coyotes negotiations. I also see that they have an agenda item on negotiations regarding Westgate parking. Could that be related to the CFD that has been proposed to support the Coyotes, or is that a different issue? Also, I assume that until there is a public release of documents related to the lease (either an MOU or a full lease) for review by the public, the Glendale City Council will not be in the position to review, discuss and vote on any lease agreement.

 

[Scottrocks58*]

The League has not had opportunities to relocate this team. It has had one opportunity and that was when the NHL's sublease was up after last season. At that time the NHL gave the COG an ultimatum: provide $25 million into an escrow account that we can draw upon or else we will relocate the team effective immediately. The COG agreed and in exchange the NHL granted the Coyotes another season in Glendale and until December 31, 2010 to find an owner that would keep the team in Glendale. Beginning 2011, the NHL will have their 2nd opportunity to relocate the team if the franchise has not been sold to an interest that agrees to keep the team in Glendale.

GHOST

Of course they did. The fight in court was over the preservation of the right of the league to put a team where they wanted and not have a location foisted upon them. They made no concession as to the right of Glendale to block a move out of bankruptcy, nor did they concede anything to Glendale regarding the amount of compensation due under bankruptcy law should the team be relocated.

The NHL could have given the team to Thomson for the '09 - '10 season. They could have also announced, as they did a generation ago in Winnipeg, that the season was a lame duck and that the team would go to Thomson for the '10 - '11 season.

Regardless of when the team would have been moved, before last season, before this season or before the next, the league would have been faced with (or will face) the same legal action from the COG. The failure to find an owner after 2 years would not be a consideration in judging whether damage mitigation per BK statutes applied to Glendale's claim.

 

[Free Edler]

I wish I was worth only $300 million dollars. I'd gladly settle for $100M.

 

[BigFatCat999]

The Thread goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Thread has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore

What's Vegas' over/under on this thread? Can I bet the over?

 

[Gump Hasek]

I disagree with the premise implied by some that the NHL clearly does not wish to move the team. In fact, as detailed by Ghost in the post below, on the lone opportunity for the NHL to display their future commitment to the market - they held a 25 million dollar relocation gun to the head of the COG.

Doesn't seem like all that firm of a commitment to Phoenix after all, IMO.

The League has not had opportunities to relocate this team. It has had one opportunity and that was when the NHL's sublease was up after last season. At that time the NHL gave the COG an ultimatum: provide $25 million into an escrow account that we can draw upon or else we will relocate the team effective immediately. The COG agreed and in exchange the NHL granted the Coyotes another season in Glendale and until December 31, 2010 to find an owner that would keep the team in Glendale. Beginning 2011, the NHL will have their 2nd opportunity to relocate the team if the franchise has not been sold to an interest that agrees to keep the team in Glendale.

GHOST

 

[Scottrocks58*]

I wish I was worth only $300 million dollars. I'd gladly settle for $100M.

$10 million and seats on the glass would more than satisfy me