Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[TrentSteele]

2009 2010
Elite W/E 10,134 15,884
Elite W/D 10,788 n.a.
Other W/E 10,829 9,989
Other W/D 7,419 7,643

A mixed bag....

Bottom line is that more than half of the games listed in that chart have < 10000 fans. You will always have to play games during the week, and you will always have to play against "non-elite" teams and schedules should not be catered to one particular team, so I'm really not sure what you guys are arguing about.

 

[cheswick]

The reason they cant have the Coyotes leave and do other things with the Arena is because there are SO many venues in the valley. The Coyotes are the anchor tenant and without them the interest on the arena Glendale pays is going to be Pejorative Slured. Its better to have some revenue coming in than none and a Westgate city center whos tenants leave because the anchor tenant in there lease agreement is gone.

The interest Glendale pays on the arena will be the same regardless of the Coyotes playing there or not. The question is what do the Coyotes pay the city to play there. I believe its under $10 million a year (corrent me if I'm mistaken)

 

[gollybass]

interesting from the Phoenix business journal,

he said overall ticket revenue is up 39 percent, single game ticket sales are up 60 percent.

Nealy said ticket revenue is up almost one million dollars compared to last year because the team is committed to keeping prices at certain levels

 

[Whileee]

The reason they cant have the Coyotes leave and do other things with the Arena is because there are SO many venues in the valley. The Coyotes are the anchor tenant and without them the interest on the arena Glendale pays is going to be Pejorative Slured. Its better to have some revenue coming in than none and a Westgate city center whos tenants leave because the anchor tenant in there lease agreement is gone.

This would be a good argument if the Coyotes are a net revenue benefit to the City of Glendale and the Westgate businesses. The current lease has the Coyotes paying the city a mere $4 million per year in revenue that helps pay off the arena debt. I doubt that will increase in the new lease. We have already discussed the potential benefit of the Coyotes fans to Westgate businesses. A CFD plan of levies and parking charges to keep the Coyotes might help some, but might hurt others (like the movie multiplex). But with so few businesses in the Westgate development that might benefit from the Coyotes, it seems unlikely that the CFD revenues generated from these businesses can be very high and allow those businesses to justify the added cost.

 

[RR]

The interest Glendale pays on the arena will be the same regardless of the Coyotes playing there or not. The question is what do the Coyotes pay the city to play there. I believe its under $10 million a year (corrent me if I'm mistaken)

Are you asking about rent only, which is ~$4M, I believe? Because they also pay $2.70 for every ticket distributed for parking ($1.5M last year); generate sales tax revenues on every ticket sold and retail sales at the arena and Westgate (2.2%), restaurants and bars (3.2%), and hotels/motels (5.6%). And that's Coyotes only. Not sure what AM pays when booking non-hockey events, but combined I'm sure it's >$10M with the Coyotes contributing $5.5M without including sales tax.

EDIT: Stand corrected. See Whileee's link. Not sure the breakout of sales tax revenues.

 

[Whileee]

The interest Glendale pays on the arena will be the same regardless of the Coyotes playing there or not. The question is what do the Coyotes pay the city to play there. I believe its under $10 million a year (corrent me if I'm mistaken)

Here are the figures... http://www.azcentral.com/ic/community/pdf/glendale-arena-payments.pdf

It averages to just over $3 million per year.

 

[gollybass]

I find it strange that the overheads for the Coyotes seem far higher than other teams, looking at the forbes list, taking in 67 million and still losing 20 doesnt make sense to me.

Is this because of interest on debt or what?

 

[Whileee]

Are you asking about rent only? Because they also pay $2.70 for every ticket distributed for parking ($1.5M last year); generate sales tax revenues on every ticket sold and retail sales at the arena (2.2%), restaurants and bars (3.2%), and hotels/motels (5.6%).

Glendale estimates that the TOTAL tax revenues for visitors to the "sports district" were in the $13 million range (annual). That is based on about 2 million visitors. Of those, perhaps 500,000 are Coyotes fans. So if they account for about 1/4 of the visitors, then perhaps they contribute about a quarter of the $13 million, or about $3.25 million per year.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/10/10/20101010glendale-debt-sports.html

 

[dkehler]

Glendale estimates that the TOTAL tax revenues for visitors to the "sports district" were in the $13 million range (annual). That is based on about 2 million visitors. Of those, perhaps 500,000 are Coyotes fans. So if they account for about 1/4 of the visitors, then perhaps they contribute about a quarter of the $13 million, or about $3.25 million per year.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/10/10/20101010glendale-debt-sports.html

And that also presumes that none of those people currently attending Coyotes games would spend the money they saved elsewhere in Glendale.

 

[RR]

Are you asking about rent only, which is ~$4M, I believe? Because they also pay $2.70 for every ticket distributed for parking ($1.5M last year); generate sales tax revenues on every ticket sold and retail sales at the arena and Westgate (2.2%), restaurants and bars (3.2%), and hotels/motels (5.6%). And that's Coyotes only. Not sure what AM pays when booking non-hockey events, but combined I'm sure it's >$10M with the Coyotes contributing $5.5M without including sales tax.

EDIT: I stand corrected. See Whileee's link. Not sure the breakout of sales tax revenues.

 

[Whileee]

Are you asking about rent only, which is ~$4M, I believe? Because they also pay $2.70 for every ticket distributed for parking ($1.5M last year); generate sales tax revenues on every ticket sold and retail sales at the arena and Westgate (2.2%), restaurants and bars (3.2%), and hotels/motels (5.6%). And that's Coyotes only. Not sure what AM pays when booking non-hockey events, but combined I'm sure it's >$10M with the Coyotes contributing $5.5M without including sales tax.

EDIT: Stand corrected. Thought rent was ~$4M per year.

Why do I get the feeling that we will soon see a nauseating amount of analysis of the financial cost-benefit of the Coyotes in Glendale? Somehow, the thought of managers and lawyers from the city facing off against GWI lawyers seems excruciating, but inevitable. The last thing the Coyotes need is a very public debate about their "worth" or "value" to the community. Winnipeg had that in the 1990s, and even in a "hockey mad" city, it wasn't always pretty.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Glendale estimates that the TOTAL tax revenues for visitors to the "sports district" were in the $13 million range (annual). That is based on about 2 million visitors. Of those, perhaps 500,000 are Coyotes fans. So if they account for about 1/4 of the visitors, then perhaps they contribute about a quarter of the $13 million, or about $3.25 million per year.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/10/10/20101010glendale-debt-sports.html

I also believe the $13mm includes state taxes? If that's only Glendale's take, and the average rate is 2.7% (2.2% and 3.2%), the total revenue in the district is about $480mm

 

[RR]

Glendale estimates that the TOTAL tax revenues for visitors to the "sports district" were in the $13 million range (annual). That is based on about 2 million visitors. Of those, perhaps 500,000 are Coyotes fans. So if they account for about 1/4 of the visitors, then perhaps they contribute about a quarter of the $13 million, or about $3.25 million per year.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/10/10/20101010glendale-debt-sports.html

So ~$6.25M from Coyotes?

 

[cbcwpg]

interesting from the Phoenix business journal,

Nealy said ticket revenue is up almost one million dollars compared to last year because the team is committed to keeping prices at certain levels

That's a good start anyways. It is absolutely required for the new ownership ( assuming it gets done ) to stop all discounts / give-aways etc. and start charging a more NHL average price. As well, you can't undercut your STH base on prices, like has happened in years past, otherwise you will lose them. It should never be cheaper to buy a walkup ticket on game day less than what the STH paid.

 

[cbcwpg]

So ~$6.25M from Coyotes?

Question. If the Coyotes contribution is $6.25M per year, could it be possible to still create a CFD for the area that would still pull in this amount or more than this amount ( based on all the other events ) even if the Coyotes were to leave.

Basically create a CFD to pay of the debt on the arena directly instead of it generating money to give to the Coyotes so they can still pay the CoG $6.25 million. If this makes sense.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Why do I get the feeling that we will soon see a nauseating amount of analysis of the financial cost-benefit of the Coyotes in Glendale? Somehow, the thought of managers and lawyers from the city facing off against GWI lawyers seems excruciating, but inevitable. The last thing the Coyotes need is a very public debate about their "worth" or "value" to the community. Winnipeg had that in the 1990s, and even in a "hockey mad" city, it wasn't always pretty.

The court ruled that they cannot use estimated revenues from things like sales tax in their calculation. It has to be a direct benefit, imo, things such as the rent, the revenue generated per ticket, per each parking, but not things such as estimating that $500k people spent x amount in the facilities and therefore the sales taxes received were higher.

Should be a very short presentation!

 

[RAgIn]

who thinks this thing gets pushed back to next week?

if it wasn't done by yesterday, I believe it we won't see it till mid-week, next week.

why rush it? it's only been 2 years.

what's the over/under?

 

[Faltorvo]

Glendale estimates that the TOTAL tax revenues for visitors to the "sports district" were in the $13 million range (annual). That is based on about 2 million visitors. Of those, perhaps 500,000 are Coyotes fans. So if they account for about 1/4 of the visitors, then perhaps they contribute about a quarter of the $13 million, or about $3.25 million per year.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/10/10/20101010glendale-debt-sports.html

The numbers don't jive.

 

[ps241]

I wonder how many other Glendale businesses would relocate or outright fail if the Coyotes weren't in Glendale? What is the tax revenue from those businesses to COG? Is there any talk in their leases about the Coyotes and/or other sporting attractions residing in the City?

In Canada the direct tax a 7000 square foot free standing bar-Restaurant would pay in a development like this would be approximately $10 psf so take an average 7000 sq foot bar in Westgate and they might pay about $70,000 in taxes annually.

 

[Faltorvo]

who thinks this thing gets pushed back to next week?

if it wasn't done by yesterday, I believe it we won't see it till mid-week, next week.

why rush it? it's only been 2 years.

what's the over/under?

It's going to be a emerge 24 hr notice meeting at the most inconvenient date possible. BOOK IT!!!

Am i the only one that noticed the mayors claim that it could run up to $20m a year just to run and maintain the arena per year ????? HUH WTF is she talking about.

$5,500 a day to do that? BS.

$38,400 a WEEK????? Just to run and service the place?

OR does that quote of a possible $20m a year not line up beautifully with the suspected $20m a year Hulz will get subsidized.

What a coincidence EH?

 

[dkehler]

It's going to be a emerge 24 hr notice meeting at the most inconvenient date possible. BOOK IT!!!

Am i the only one that noticed the mayors claim that it could run up to $20m a year just to run and maintain the arena per year ????? HUH WTF is she talking about.

$5,500 a day to do that? BS.

$38,400 a WEEK????? Just to run and service the place?

OR does that quote of a possible $20m a year not line up beautifully with the suspected $20m a year Hulz will get subsidized.

What a coincidence EH?

She's probably just parroting a number that somebody told her, but yeah, amazing coincidence.

 

[kdb209]

Exactly. Its funny that Winnipeg, without NHL hockey, can have an arena that is the 3rd busiest in Canada and have no problem making money, yet Glendale has to turn out the lights on thier arena in the Coyotes leave.

Actually - The MTS Center dropped off significantly in 2009, according to the Pollstar #s.

2009 Pollstar TOP 100 WORLDWIDE Arena Venues

2009 Year End TICKET SALES
TOP 100 Worldwide ARENA Venues

10. Bell Centre Montreal, CANADA 546,328
22. Air Canada Centre Toronto, CANADA 411,449
23. Rexall Place Edmonton, CANADA 406,453
41. Scotiabank Place Ottawa, CANADA 309,667
43. General Motors Place Vancouver, CANADA 309,015
50. MTS Centre Winnipeg, CANADA 260,956
80. Pengrowth Saddledome Calgary, CANADA 164,592

All figures are for tickets sold worldwide as reported to POLLSTAR for shows played between 1/1/09 and 12/31/09.

2008 Pollstar TOP 100 WORLDWIDE Arena Venues

2008 YEAR END TICKET SALES
TOP 100 WORLDWIDE Arena Venues

5. Air Canada Centre Toronto, CANADA 723,469
6. Bell Centre Montreal, CANADA 723,256
19. MTS Centre Winnipeg, CANADA 385,427
32. Rexall Place Edmonton, CANADA 294,733
40. General Motors Place Vancouver, CANADA 265,633
43. Pengrowth Saddledome Calgary, CANADA 242,636
51. Scotiabank Place Ottawa, CANADA 220,968

All figures are for tickets sold worldwide as reported to POLLSTAR for shows played between 1/1/08 and 12/31/08.

www.sprintcenter.com/resources/pdfs/2009YearEndTicketSalesTop100WorldwideArenaVenues.pdf

http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/site-tcl/media/tradecentrelimited/Top 100 Arenas.pdf

I've googled around, but haven't found any 2010 Q1, Q2, or Q3 Pollstar #'s.

I'm not posting to disparage Winnipeg or the MTS Center - I have a great respect for what Mark Chipman and TNSE have done - but this seemed a good place to post the new Pollstar link I just came across.

It's a real pain finding complete Pollstar lists. Pollstar doesn't release them - you typically find them in PRs from high rated venues (and there you frequently only get the top 10 or so).

 

[MAROONSRoad]

What's the time in Phoenix?

GHOST

 

[gollybass]

What's the time in Phoenix?

GHOST

4:50 still no agenda

someone i follow on twitter states it IS on the agenda
He went down to COG himself ha

 

[kdb209]

Here are the figures... http://www.azcentral.com/ic/community/pdf/glendale-arena-payments.pdf

It averages to just over $3 million per year.

From the CoG 2011 Budget Book.

Fund 1780 (Arena Special Revenue) includes team fees, parking fees, and sales tax revenues.

Schedule Two by FUND Summary of Revenues

Fund Description FY 2008 Actual 2009 Actual FY 2010 Estimate FY 2011 Budget

1780 - Arena Special Revenue
Arena Fees $3,713,706 $621,159 $6,090,825 $4,816,246
City Sales Tax $1,459,402 $2,627,860 $1,971,829 $2,023,889
Miscellaneous $10,798 $610,389 $5,000 $5,000
Fund Total - Arena Special Revenue: $5,183,906 $3,859,408 $8,067,654 $6,845,135