Owen Sound Attack 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 2)

[ktownfan]

Not really much point in debating the argument without having even seen the players in camp or exhibition games yet. It's a big assumption that there's going to be a player that takes the ice time that Stewart could be playing. Could it happen? Sure. Will it happen? TBD. Should it happen? Depends on the philosophy of roster make up between the GM and Head Coach. I would suspect we know the answer from the GM. How does Scott Wray feel?

Looking objectively at the roster heading towards camp, it's not overly big on size nor is it a physical group. There is definitely a strong likelihood that this group gets pushed around by bigger/older teams from time to time. The game is changing but there is still that element of physicality in the league that the Attack don't project to have much of.

You pointed out that scoring could be tough this year, which I agree with, if keeping Stewart means McCue doesn't need to be involved as much in the after whistle shenanigans and focuses on scoring, does that at all factor into it? If Stewart can score ~10 goals this year, does it warrant spending the assets to get the guy who scores ~15 goals during a rebuilding year? I think that is likely part of the equation as well.

Personally, I'm all for the youth movement and the development of those players. I do think there needs to be some balance between letting them play and protecting them whether that's physically or just from over exposure. Training camp is only a couple weeks away and should offer a better picture of where things are at and what may or may not be needed. It'll be fun to watch.

Arguements for both sides on Stewart, he did have all his goal in 1 game this year. Had 4 goals his 1st year here and 8 in his second year. Does have "some" offensive skill. You can't make a kid who doesn't want to play tough play tough, you can however reel a kid in who does play that way. Mccue can't fight, Jordan can't fight and the rest of the league knows this. In todays game it doesn't matter as much, but the opposition know who is a pretender in that department and who is not. Having a guy like him will make these small guys in the lineup and especially rookies feel more comfortable. With a reward of more playing time I think he would curb the extra stuff that gets him penalties. I read an article that Degray said after he fired the coaches, that he wanted a team that would make other teams not want to get off the bus in Owen Sound. Well there is your guy.
The other side is yes, in a rebuilding year does he take ice away from your rookies and younger guys that could help them down the road? You guys are not a physical team, but maybe Degray is hoping for an offensive type bunch moving forward.
I am a big fan of Stewy, so I know I'll get some heat. Good luck to him and your team this coming year.

 

[Millpond]

G

And I would counter that with keeping a Stewart knocks someone off the roster that may be part of the core of the team in 2 years. Giving him 13 minutes a night takes away from a 16 or 17 year old who would grow with those minutes.

I think that top to bottom the team will have a 'tougher' mentality, it seems to be the attitude that they are projecting from behind the bench, and to be honest, Im not sure how truly tough most of the league is these days anyways? Of all the teams that I watched last year London was the only truly 'tough' team and even with Stewart in the lineup they still played that way.

If this team is to move forward I think they will need everyone to play that way, not just 1 or 2. Thats where someone like a Waddick will be in trouble IMO, he doesn't have much push back where as at least Teresigni has some compete and aggression to his game.

Honestly I would even think of adding an overage who can add more offensive support and still play with that hard edge. Don't mind knocking a kid off the roster if its for an older guy who can play hard and score 15 goals, not sure id do it for Stewart who scored all his goals last year in one game against Windsor where everyone seemed to score. I think scoring will be hard this year, an overage needs to be one of the offensive leaders. I think Hookey can do that, Stewart has never proven he can, at some point you are what you are.

Just looking at the rosters and teams with extra overages, Erie has Bruce McDonnald who scored 18 goals but also fought, played heavy, etc. If it only costs a 5th or 6th round pick, or even the 8th that Kaleb Lawrence cost, id rather do that.

Good points

 

[Stellar29]

And thats why I would suggest that if its an issue, go after someone like MacDonald who I would think would be more of a Papais or Lawrence cost.

He would produce way more then Stewart does, would fill the depth of centre and move others down the lineup a bit, while also adding the physical edge.

You can still have a player like that, overages need to be play drivers and Stewart is not that, you can find heavy compete players who are overages easier.

Generally speaking, yes, OAs should be play drivers, I agree with that. That typically applies with teams who are trying to win and this version of the Attack is going to be focused more on player development. Stewart isn't going to be on the team if there's a younger player that comes in to camp and deserves to make the team over him. I can't see a scenario where he takes a spot over someone who has a chance to be here long term. What I think a player like Stewart can offer is some security and push back to allow the younger players to be more comfortable. Stewart is what he is at this point, he's not going to contribute with any significance to the offense but it's not to say he can't provide value to the team given their situation.

The part that doesn't really compute for me is DeGray saying he wants teams to not want to get off the bus when they come to Owen Sound but yet dress a line up with minimal physicality or bite. Those elements just don't exist outside of a few pieces on this team. That's why Hookey and Stewart were brought in previously and why I think there's a decent shot they are both part of the team this year. Konnor Smith could be kept but that would likely mean two OAs on the blueline in a year when you're trying to develop players. Smith has more trade value and I think he'll be moved before the start of the year making Jordan the lone OA on the blueline.

 

[Spills]

Generally speaking, yes, OAs should be play drivers, I agree with that. That typically applies with teams who are trying to win and this version of the Attack is going to be focused more on player development. Stewart isn't going to be on the team if there's a younger player that comes in to camp and deserves to make the team over him. I can't see a scenario where he takes a spot over someone who has a chance to be here long term. What I think a player like Stewart can offer is some security and push back to allow the younger players to be more comfortable. Stewart is what he is at this point, he's not going to contribute with any significance to the offense but it's not to say he can't provide value to the team given their situation.

The part that doesn't really compute for me is DeGray saying he wants teams to not want to get off the bus when they come to Owen Sound but yet dress a line up with minimal physicality or bite. Those elements just don't exist outside of a few pieces on this team. That's why Hookey and Stewart were brought in previously and why I think there's a decent shot they are both part of the team this year. Konnor Smith could be kept but that would likely mean two OAs on the blueline in a year when you're trying to develop players. Smith has more trade value and I think he'll be moved before the start of the year making Jordan the lone OA on the blueline.

There is only value with Hookey and Stewy if they get playing time. Hookey can put up more points. And Last year Stewy was a role player without any ice time. Didn't make sense to keep him parked on the 4th line with minimal minutes.

 

[Stellar29]

There is only value with Hookey and Stewy if they get playing time. Hookey can put up more points. And Last year Stewy was a role player without any ice time. Didn't make sense to keep him parked on the 4th line with minimal minutes.

Hookey should be a solid top 6 piece on this team with a good chance to play top line minutes and 1st unit PP. I don't really think it makes sense for Stewart or the Attack if he's going to be a fourth line guy this year. It would be best to move on for both parties if he can't find a role in the middle 6 forward group. This could very well be the weakest and youngest forward group in some time which makes it more realistic for a player like Stewart to stick. Both guys need to play to make any real impact over the course of a game.

 

[StingUpdates]

 

[AttackBeacher]

View attachment 899981

Was he not at the Bayshore the day of the damage talking about how excited he was to be with the Attack?

 

[cruickshankd]

Was he not at the Bayshore the day of the damage talking about how excited he was to be with the Attack?

Yes he was...then came the USHL draft and then a NCAA offer....

 

[Sounder76]

...great scouting on that one by our trusted GM....then came the second round pick vanish...

 

[cruickshankd]

...great scouting on that one by our trusted GM....then came the second round pick vanish...

???? Same guy

 

[AttackBeacher]

???? Same guy

I dont understand how the player comes the day of the draft and says how excited he is and then a few weeks/months later hes totally out. Id say it sounds like Josh Barnes all over again, but this one is more odd given the player actually was in Owen Sound and seemed fairly excited from what everyone said.

 

[cruickshankd]

I dont understand how the player comes the day of the draft and says how excited he is and then a few weeks/months later hes totally out. Id say it sounds like Josh Barnes all over again, but this one is more odd given the player actually was in Owen Sound and seemed fairly excited from what everyone said.

I beleive this is not on the team....kid/family just changed their minds with the new opportunities

 

[AttackSound]

...great scouting on that one by our trusted GM....then came the second round pick vanish...

The CHL and further that OHL isn't NCAA/OUA these kids all have player advisors and parents to help guide them in the direction they see fit for their child/client.

What round it effects isn't really the issue here. Does it sting from a fans perspective well of course it does but that just means that there is another kid in the draft class like Mikus or Kindree who want to further their development in the scenic city instead. Kids who choose other routes aren't necessarily bad kids, just means that they see the OHL as not their first option.

At the end of the day does it matter if it's a second round pick or the twelfth round pick who chooses not to report and go somewhere else? Well not really simply because there will always be another kid in a different round with a different background report to camp and show what they can do and will get the opportunity to develop in the league here in Owen Sound. Nowadays these kids have many different options and outcomes that happen including the CHL.

Better to focus on the kids who report to camp then the ones who choose other options that are out there, at the end of the day the kids who show up to camp and sign will get the development at this league that the ones who choose other paths won't get.

 

[KFawcett]

...great scouting on that one by our trusted GM....then came the second round pick vanish...

Don't see how this is on scouting or G.M. If a player doesn't say I'm not playing major jr and is a legit 2nd rd pick you draft him. If his advisors weigh there options and believe a different one is there best route then thats there choice. Hopefully it works out for them.

 

[Stellar29]

I beleive this is not on the team....kid/family just changed their minds with the new opportunities

Happens to everybody, this time it happened to be the Attack. It's a big decision in their lives and when they have options they shouldn't be faulted for choosing what they deem the best choice. I think it especially hurts this time as the Attack spent assets to get the draft pick used on this particular player but as with everything in life, nothing comes without risk.

 

[Sounder76]

Don't see how this is on scouting or G.M. If a player doesn't say I'm not playing major jr and is a legit 2nd rd pick you draft him. If his advisors weigh there options and believe a different one is there best route then thats there choice. Hopefully it works out for them.

Of course a teenager and his family can change their mind, but also is it not fair that the GM ask the prospective player if they are considering that other route when they are scouting him? Are we on this board not even allowed to question the GM and/or management's thoroughness?

There are a lot of posters on here that seem to defend the team's side of things and do not appreciate any criticism directed towards DeGray especially. One has to wonder if this has to do with proximity bias. People are allowed to be disappointed when he uses a second round pick on a guy that bolts AFTER he attends the BBQ in person. That is another level of rejection that fans may feel after a situation such as that. Just look at it from both sides.

Complacency can set in after being in one job and having carte blanche for over 15 years. In my opinion, it has in this case with our GM. Just my opinion and I know exactly who will not like my comments. Thing is, they are just comments, meant for healthy discussion. That's all. Not an indictment on any one person etc. Don't lose focus on what this message board should be used for.

 

[Millpond]

View attachment 899981

If you released this 6 weeks ago I would be surprised.
It's old news. I wish him the best, he moved on as did the Attack.
It happens .

 

[Millpond]

I dont understand how the player comes the day of the draft and says how excited he is and then a few weeks/months later hes totally out. Id say it sounds like Josh Barnes all over again, but this one is more odd given the player actually was in Owen Sound and seemed fairly excited from what everyone said.

Just because a team drafts a kid does not force him to sign with them , or a USHL or an American college.
Ultimately the choice is his parents.

 

[Millpond]

Of course a teenager and his family can change their mind, but also is it not fair that the GM ask the prospective player if they are considering that other route when they are scouting him? Are we on this board not even allowed to question the GM and/or management's thoroughness?

There are a lot of posters on here that seem to defend the team's side of things and do not appreciate any criticism directed towards DeGray especially. One has to wonder if this has to do with proximity bias. People are allowed to be disappointed when he uses a second round pick on a guy that bolts AFTER he attends the BBQ in person. That is another level of rejection that fans may feel after a situation such as that. Just look at it from both sides.

Complacency can set in after being in one job and having carte blanche for over 15 years. In my opinion, it has in this case with our GM. Just my opinion and I know exactly who will not like my comments. Thing is, they are just comments, meant for healthy discussion. That's all. Not an indictment on any one person etc. Don't lose focus on what this message board should be used for.

Here's my 2 cents.
The kids gone.
I'm going to watch the kids that show up.

 

[AttackBeacher]

Of course a teenager and his family can change their mind, but also is it not fair that the GM ask the prospective player if they are considering that other route when they are scouting him? Are we on this board not even allowed to question the GM and/or management's thoroughness?

There are a lot of posters on here that seem to defend the team's side of things and do not appreciate any criticism directed towards DeGray especially. One has to wonder if this has to do with proximity bias. People are allowed to be disappointed when he uses a second round pick on a guy that bolts AFTER he attends the BBQ in person. That is another level of rejection that fans may feel after a situation such as that. Just look at it from both sides.

Complacency can set in after being in one job and having carte blanche for over 15 years. In my opinion, it has in this case with our GM. Just my opinion and I know exactly who will not like my comments. Thing is, they are just comments, meant for healthy discussion. That's all. Not an indictment on any one person etc. Don't lose focus on what this message board should be used for.

The only thing I really defended Degray on was the shot you took with Samsanov, which took place about 10 years before Dale was in Owen Sound, which I think is a fair defence lol

 

[KFawcett]

Of course a teenager and his family can change their mind, but also is it not fair that the GM ask the prospective player if they are considering that other route when they are scouting him? Are we on this board not even allowed to question the GM and/or management's thoroughness?

There are a lot of posters on here that seem to defend the team's side of things and do not appreciate any criticism directed towards DeGray especially. One has to wonder if this has to do with proximity bias. People are allowed to be disappointed when he uses a second round pick on a guy that bolts AFTER he attends the BBQ in person. That is another level of rejection that fans may feel after a situation such as that. Just look at it from both sides.

Complacency can set in after being in one job and having carte blanche for over 15 years. In my opinion, it has in this case with our GM. Just my opinion and I know exactly who will not like my comments. Thing is, they are just comments, meant for healthy discussion. That's all. Not an indictment on any one person etc. Don't lose focus on what this message board should be used for.

I'm nowhere saying nobody can question or be disappointed in whatever happens with the organization it would be pretty boring if everyone agreed all the time. All I'm saying is none of us are privvy to everything that happens but I will almost guarantee considering other options is discussed with every pick. Last year we met Nico Addy at the draft party but where asked not to take pictures or post on Social media because at that time he wasn't sure. They came to O.S and checked out the program and came. You win some you lose some and for the record I'm extremely disappointed in a few things but try to see the glass as half full not half empty. I will repeat what D.D always says he's not hard to find at the rink and he is more than willing to talk hockey with anyone. Now if someone goes off on him he will more than likely shut them down but thats the same with all of us.

 

[Stellar29]

I'm nowhere saying nobody can question or be disappointed in whatever happens with the organization it would be pretty boring if everyone agreed all the time. All I'm saying is none of us are privvy to everything that happens but I will almost guarantee considering other options is discussed with every pick. Last year we met Nico Addy at the draft party but where asked not to take pictures or post on Social media because at that time he wasn't sure. They came to O.S and checked out the program and came. You win some you lose some and for the record I'm extremely disappointed in a few things but try to see the glass as half full not half empty. I will repeat what D.D always says he's not hard to find at the rink and he is more than willing to talk hockey with anyone. Now if someone goes off on him he will more than likely shut them down but thats the same with all of us.

There's been plenty of criticism for DeGray on this board and posters who are willing to criticize when it's warranted or fair. I don't think a player changing their mind on where they intend to play after being drafted is the fault of the GM. I'm sure they had conversations with the player/family and were comfortable making the pick based on that. Life happens and we move on.

I think the Addy situation was a little different. I think they were more comfortable taking the risk of him not reporting because having two 08 first rounders would have been fine given the roster turnover at the end of last season and the pending reset/rebuild. As you pointed out, it worked for the Attack last year and they got the player.

 

[Stellar29]

I'll just add in general, there are a number of you who are around the rink on a regular basis who have a better idea of the inner workings of things than I do and can offer perspective and insights that I appreciate. Definitely appreciate the value added in the conversations on the board from those details that get shared. There's no need for everybody to agree on everything and healthy debate is fun.

I'd love to sneak away from work and catch some of camp this year and who knows, maybe I'll run in to some of you.

 

[cruickshankd]

I'll just add in general, there are a number of you who are around the rink on a regular basis who have a better idea of the inner workings of things than I do and can offer perspective and insights that I appreciate. Definitely appreciate the value added in the conversations on the board from those details that get shared. There's no need for everybody to agree on everything and healthy debate is fun.

I'd love to sneak away from work and catch some of camp this year and who knows, maybe I'll run in to some of you.

Some of us on this board attend EVERY practice and all of camp...some say we are nuts..we say it is our "Timmy's senior meeting" lol...we love it!! We will be there!

 

[AttackBeacher]

Some of us on this board attend EVERY practice and all of camp...some say we are nuts..we say it is our "Timmy's senior meeting" lol...we love it!! We will be there!

I certainly appreciate the updates. Hopefully more to come this year