Overdrive & Kyper and Bourne - Leafs Discussion Week of May 20

[Daisy Jane]

Or like most rational people he sees him as being unfairly scapegoated.

and how is he exactly being unfairly scapegoated?

Most people will acknowledge that he's extremely talented having several let's call a spade a spade 100 point seasons even though this season is the last season).

most people will acknowledge that when he goes, we're going to struggle because he does a lot on the power play and the penalty kill.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of the goodwill that people generally give was due to Mitch's general behaviour in regards to his contract negotiations. as I remember it was pretty nasty-ish.

i think it is also fair to say that a LOT of people from when they were all rookies that it made sense to trade one (or both) Mitch and Will to get better/same value assets and it and that didn't change when it was evident that Mitch is a hard sign.

I think it's very fair to say that despite all of his regular season success Mitch is poo in the playoffs. reason why he gets a bit more of the heat is probably because he's the one who whinged about getting paid above and beyond, was a hard sign, and then doesn't show up. most players in that situation would get the ire.

mitch will get paid big time becuse of what he does in the regular season. and I think potentially he'll probably do better in the playoffs because he's not around like minded people. and i think most people know that too.


so how he's being scapegoated and unfairly on top of that is a mystery to me

 

[sunstersun]

I will bet anyone the farm that Marner will not win a cup as a driver or comeback to burn the Leafs with his play in the postseason.

It might be mental with Nylander and Matthews, it's not with Marner. He just lacks tools to be good in the postseason.

 

[Trapper]

"We're not here to sell jerseys. But have you considered buying a new Auston Matthews 34 jersey that now has the shiny new C on it? Available today at RS Apparel"

The new Matthews jersey now also features a rotating C so you can turn it into a frown when you think you are being scapegoated.

 

[The Shadow]

I will bet anyone the farm that Marner will not win a cup as a driver or comeback to burn the Leafs with his play in the postseason.

It might be mental with Nylander and Matthews, it's not with Marner. He just lacks tools to be good in the postseason.

Agreed. And as he hits 30 soon he will just be more of a perimeter type and even slower. He’s basically at his prime at this moment. He may get better in some areas but NHL playoffs are a different beast and he’s not capable of succeeding in those conditions

He may get another 100 point season on another team but playoff success won’t be because of him

 

[sunstersun]

Agreed. And as he hits 30 soon he will just be more of a perimeter type and even slower. He’s basically at his prime at this moment. He may get better in some areas but NHL playoffs are a different beast and he’s not capable of succeeding in those conditions

He may get another 100 point season on another team but playoff succeed won’t be because of him

I look at his skating and think it's going to age horribly.

Great edge work and lateral movement, but everything straight line is bad. Top end speed is bad, bursts are bad, and explosiveness is beyond horrible.

His shot needs no introduction, suffice to say it's around 25 percentile.

He's small, and weak. All of this is fine in the regular season as it's perimeter game, postseason rolls around it's speed, physicality and lack of room.

None of that will change if he improves mentally away from Toronto.

 

[The Shadow]

I look at his skating and think it's going to age horribly.

Great edge work and lateral movement, but everything straight line is bad. Top end speed is bad, bursts are bad, and explosiveness is beyond horrible.

His shot needs no introduction, suffice to say it's around 25 percentile.

He's small, and weak. All of this is fine in the regular season as it's perimeter game, postseason rolls around it's speed, physicality and lack of room.

None of that will change if he improves mentally away from Toronto.

It’s just too bad they couldn’t trade him when they had the chance

 

[Tak7]

The new Matthews jersey now also features a rotating C so you can turn it into a frown when you think you are being scapegoated.

The home Blue AM34 Captaincy Gas Light Edition

 

[Trapper]

The home Blue AM34 Captaincy Gas Light Edition

Everyone is going to wear a letter next year.
C, A and the new P for everyone else.
The new Passenger letter
We want to know who is who on the ice.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Delete

 

[Stephen]

and how is he exactly being unfairly scapegoated?

Most people will acknowledge that he's extremely talented having several let's call a spade a spade 100 point seasons even though this season is the last season).

most people will acknowledge that when he goes, we're going to struggle because he does a lot on the power play and the penalty kill.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of the goodwill that people generally give was due to Mitch's general behaviour in regards to his contract negotiations. as I remember it was pretty nasty-ish.

i think it is also fair to say that a LOT of people from when they were all rookies that it made sense to trade one (or both) Mitch and Will to get better/same value assets and it and that didn't change when it was evident that Mitch is a hard sign.

I think it's very fair to say that despite all of his regular season success Mitch is poo in the playoffs. reason why he gets a bit more of the heat is probably because he's the one who whinged about getting paid above and beyond, was a hard sign, and then doesn't show up. most players in that situation would get the ire.

mitch will get paid big time becuse of what he does in the regular season. and I think potentially he'll probably do better in the playoffs because he's not around like minded people. and i think most people know that too.


so how he's being scapegoated and unfairly on top of that is a mystery to me

It always came down to Auston Matthews getting the golden child treatment while hometown Mitch Marner got more of the blame. Plus Marner had to stomp his feet harder to get fewer flowers than AM34.

 

[rumman]

The home Blue AM34 Captaincy Gas Light Edition

I sure hope next years helmet ad sponsor is the TTC, so many passengers……..

 

[HockeyVirus]

People saying trade Matthews make me shake my head. We have a #1 W with Nylander to replace Marner with even if we need to bring in some PK help and another winger to work with Matthews, we still have a top line RW. We have no replacement #1 C aside from 36 year old Tavares

But also, Matthews is 6 foot 3 200+ pounds. Marner is 5 foot 10 allegedly and weak. Can't win a board battle. Matthews wins board battles, I've seen it with my eyes a million times over the years.. Specifically in his Hart season and his Canadian division season. He just needs health because he can't do it injured.

 

[Wrong Wilson]

Next season, just like they give out the wrestling belt after every win, they should hand out a bus pass after every loss, given to the most egregious passenger.

 

[Stringer Bell]

You can still build a lot of muscle after 30, especially if you've never done it before...but the body is a lot less cooperative about it.

That he made it this far without lifting weights is impressive but also sad. Once other areas of his game start to deteriorate a bit he really won't be able to adapt to something else.

I'm trying to think who his comparable is. Not Patrick Kane. Maybe more Gaudreau? Is there anyone else, historically?

 

[colchar]

What’s it to you, I was trying to gain that poster’s perspective on the conversation we were having, don’t you have better things to do than interject yourself in a conversation that has nothing to do with you?

Apparently you don't grasp how forums work. If you want to have a private conversation, don't do it in public.

These are the type of posts that add nothing to the forum, stick to defending the Leafs no matter how bad they fail

Yeah, because I never criticize them.

But on a more important note, who the hell do you think you are telling other people what they can or cannot discuss? Get over yourself man.

 

[kevsh]

So just catching up on Kyper & Bourne from yesterday and Kypreos was talking about this bonus structure that top ELC players get, but apparently Lou didn't want to give them out.

These are bonuses that can double an ELC players overall income, so they're not trivial.

Marner & Nylander (not sure if both, but at least Mitch) were told "nope" you don't get them.

Next year the Leafs draft Matthews and he gets them. Apparently, that's when the bad blood starts. Next thing, Willie is holding out for more money - he wants to get paid in full. And Mitch does the same, demanding full value.

If true, certainly understandable for those two to not take discounts after the team screwed them over (those bonuses are standard for top draft picks) then reversed course for Auston.

In any case, full video of the show where they do a pretty enlightening post-mortem on the last decade for the Maple Leafs (part discussed above starts around 38 minutes in):

 

[Gabriel426]

Next season, just like they give out the wrestling belt after every win, they should hand out a bus pass after every loss, given to the most egregious passenger.

NOpe, they should hand out a cert. that said Completing a LESSON

 

[wingman75]

So just catching up on Kyper & Bourne from yesterday and Kypreos was talking about this bonus structure that top ELC players get, but apparently Lou didn't want to give them out.

These are bonuses that can double an ELC players overall income, so they're not trivial.

Marner & Nylander (not sure if both, but at least Mitch) were told "nope" you don't get them.

Next year the Leafs draft Matthews and he gets them. Apparently, that's when the bad blood starts. Next thing, Willie is holding out for more money - he wants to get paid in full. And Mitch does the same, demanding full value.

If true, certainly understandable for those two to not take discounts after the team screwed them over (those bonuses are standard for top draft picks) then reversed course for Auston.

In any case, full video of the show where they do a pretty enlightening post-mortem on the last decade for the Maple Leafs (part discussed above starts around 38 minutes in):

The Leafs management team, Shanahan, Lamoriello , Dubas were idiots and mismanged not only that, but so many other aspects of the early stages of this rebuild.

 

[Tak7]

So just catching up on Kyper & Bourne from yesterday and Kypreos was talking about this bonus structure that top ELC players get, but apparently Lou didn't want to give them out.

These are bonuses that can double an ELC players overall income, so they're not trivial.

Marner & Nylander (not sure if both, but at least Mitch) were told "nope" you don't get them.

Next year the Leafs draft Matthews and he gets them. Apparently, that's when the bad blood starts. Next thing, Willie is holding out for more money - he wants to get paid in full. And Mitch does the same, demanding full value.

If true, certainly understandable for those two to not take discounts after the team screwed them over (those bonuses are standard for top draft picks) then reversed course for Auston.

They had bonuses in their ELC, just not schedule B bonuses - this bonus stuff has been known for over half a decade now. They just weren't as big as the top players (McDavid, Eichel, Draisaitl, etc).

Marner and Nylander both made $925k in base salary, and then an additional $850k for hitting said performance bonuses.

The issue was Auston Matthews made the same base salary of $925, but earned an additional $2.9m in Schedule B bonuses in the 3 years of his ELC.

So right out of the gate, these guys were comparing themselves to one another, and feeling short changed by the organization. Those were Lou deals, by the way.

None of this was really public until the Marner negotiation after his ELC - I believe at the time we were told that Lou refused to give Schedule Bs due to a policy against rookies having them, and then later contradicted his approach by giving it to Matthews.

 

[rumman]

Apparently you don't grasp how forums work. If you want to have a private conversation, don't do it in public.




Yeah, because I never criticize them.

But on a more important note, who the hell do you think you are telling other people what they can or cannot discuss? Get over yourself man.

Congratulations your the first person in 17 years I’ve had to put on ignore………

 

[WillNy29]

So just catching up on Kyper & Bourne from yesterday and Kypreos was talking about this bonus structure that top ELC players get, but apparently Lou didn't want to give them out.

These are bonuses that can double an ELC players overall income, so they're not trivial.

Marner & Nylander (not sure if both, but at least Mitch) were told "nope" you don't get them.

Next year the Leafs draft Matthews and he gets them. Apparently, that's when the bad blood starts. Next thing, Willie is holding out for more money - he wants to get paid in full. And Mitch does the same, demanding full value.

If true, certainly understandable for those two to not take discounts after the team screwed them over (those bonuses are standard for top draft picks) then reversed course for Auston.

In any case, full video of the show where they do a pretty enlightening post-mortem on the last decade for the Maple Leafs (part discussed above starts around 38 minutes in):

yeah they did get screwed out of those bonuses because Lou lamiorello is a f*** head

 

[Gabriel426]

They had bonuses in their ELC, just not schedule B bonuses - this bonus stuff has been known for over half a decade now. They just weren't as big as the top players (McDavid, Eichel, Draisaitl, etc).

Marner and Nylander both made $925k in base salary, and then an additional $850k for hitting said performance bonuses.

The issue was Auston Matthews made the same base salary of $925, but earned an additional $2.9m in Schedule B bonuses in the 3 years of his ELC.

So right out of the gate, these guys were comparing themselves to one another, and feeling short changed by the organization. Those were Lou deals, by the way.

None of this was really public until the Marner negotiation after his ELC - I believe at the time we were told that Lou refused to give Schedule Bs due to a policy against rookies having them, and then later contradicted his approach by giving it to Matthews.

Honestly, AM is the No.1 overall pick.

Sorry but there is a difference between the No.1 Overall pick than Pick #4 and Pick #7 or 8.

If MM and Willie held that against the Leafs, they are really petty. Thats like saying Nicky Robbie wants a 11mil deal bc AM, MM and Willie all have them and when he only signs for 1.5mil, he held it against the Leafs for not giving him the 11mil contract.

 

[647Hockey]

I watched these guys yesterday. I found it interesting Kipper used the word that I've been using for the last 4 or 5 years. Damage.

Kyle did so much damage in such a short period of time, that there was no way we could recover in the Matthews era.

I also thought the good moves/bad moves part was a good exercise.

For me, in no particular order, the bad moves that killed us were:

1. Marchment for Malgin - just made no sense whatsoever.
2. The Kadri trade
3. The Marleau trade
4. The Johnsson and Kapanen contracts
5. Letting Jared McCann be unprotected
6. Samsonov and Mrazek
7. The Mrazek trade
8. Not extending Hyman - definitely one of the worst 3 moves. No hindsight was needed here
9. The whole contract situation - whether signing Tavares, or the other 3. Depends how you want to look at it
10. Constant trade downs
11. The 2017 and 2019 draft
12. The 2020 draft - absolutely tragic
13. Saying no thanks to Perry


Good moves:
1. Hyman for McKegg
2. McCann for Hallander and a 7th
3. Stolarz
4. Tanev
5. Drafting Knies - best move of all
6. Signing Benoit - amazing signing and extension

The guy front loaded the team with high priced forward contracts not giving a crap about defence or goalies. And he did the Rielly deal too right? An offence first dman with middling defensive skills.

He basically tried to build a winner like he's playing EA NHL games run and gun style, or dreaming about the Oilers and Pens from way back where they could literally score 10 goals in a game. Probably the last time any cup winner did have overpowering offence to the extreme to overcome any weaknesses were probably those teams from 35-40 years ago (unless I forgot about any team since then which were similar).

Any gritty support forwards or dmen are mostly rentals or on the trend down like a revolving door. Squeezed in best as possible to fit the budget.

Guy had no idea what he was doing. And so far in his limited time on the Pens isnt doing any better,

 

[ToneDog]

I watched these guys yesterday. I found it interesting Kipper used the word that I've been using for the last 4 or 5 years. Damage.

Kyle did so much damage in such a short period of time, that there was no way we could recover in the Matthews era.

I also thought the good moves/bad moves part was a good exercise.

For me, in no particular order, the bad moves that killed us were:

1. Marchment for Malgin - just made no sense whatsoever.
2. The Kadri trade
3. The Marleau trade
4. The Johnsson and Kapanen contracts
5. Letting Jared McCann be unprotected
6. Samsonov and Mrazek
7. The Mrazek trade
8. Not extending Hyman - definitely one of the worst 3 moves. No hindsight was needed here
9. The whole contract situation - whether signing Tavares, or the other 3. Depends how you want to look at it
10. Constant trade downs
11. The 2017 and 2019 draft
12. The 2020 draft - absolutely tragic
13. Saying no thanks to Perry


Good moves:
1. Hyman for McKegg
2. McCann for Hallander and a 7th
3. Stolarz
4. Tanev
5. Drafting Knies - best move of all
6. Signing Benoit - amazing signing and extension

How could you forget a first for a broken down Nick Foligno, Big Save Dave, Ritchie and Vessey?

Stolarz, Tanev and Benoit are Tre.

 

[WillNy29]

The Leafs management team, Shanahan, Lamoriello , Dubas were idiots and mismanged not only that, but so many other aspects of the early stages of this rebuild.

Please do not forget to add drafting guru Mark Hunter on here and his mind boggling draft selections