Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[mrv52]

The skill to score an empty net = skill to score a goal?

Ok


Sure and if you only count odd days too while you are at it.

Meh. Good luck with your crusade.

 

[NORiculous]

Adjust eras

Good point.

However, it is possible to argue that with the years, there are new techniques, new equipment and new training methods, etc. So it is hard to speculate how that all come together.

But that is a fair point.

 

[mrv52]

Good point.

However, it is possible to argue that with the years, there are new techniques, new equipment and new training methods, etc. So it is hard to speculate how that all come together.

But that is a fair point.

Looking at past 30yo would also adjust for era in this situation.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Last I checked, Gretzky is still the top goal scorer and will likely always be, even if is record is passed, due to his dominance with his pass first mentality.

Gretzky put a ton of hay in the barn in the 8 goal per game 80s and early 90s and fell completely off a cliff. Ovechkin has scored 50 9x in an era where barely anyone has. He's a better goal scorer.

Unequivocally not a better hockey player.

 

[filinski77]

Good point.

However, it is possible to argue that with the years, there are new techniques, new equipment and new training methods, etc. So it is hard to speculate how that all come together.

But that is a fair point.

There are indeed a ton of factors that lead to changes in average leave scoring. The great part, is that just looking at the average league scoring numbers encompasses all of those reasons.

Factually, Hull Jr. Played in a much much higher scoring era. That’s it.

 

[NORiculous]

Looking at past 30yo would also adjust for era in this situation.

Randomly selecting a line where to cut the info isn’t very serious.

 

[Randyne]

Good point.

Era adjusted (w/o this season because hr site extrapolates unfinished season to a full season)
OV .694, w/o ENGs .656
BH .582, w/o ENGs .573

 

[mrv52]

Randomly selecting a line where to cut the info isn’t very serious.

Sorta like posting career gpg after eliminating eng's?

 

[NORiculous]

There are indeed a ton of factors that lead to changes in average leave scoring. The great part, is that just looking at the average league scoring numbers encompasses all of those reasons.

Factually, Hull Jr. Played in a much much higher scoring era. That’s it.

No doupt that if you take 100 players that score a league average goals, a majority will follow the curve. A little will perform worse and a little will perform better.

When talking about a great goal scorer, we don’t know for sure how he would react and what curve he would follow.

So, although it is a fair argument, it is not 100% bulletproof. We don’t know for sure how the performance of one player would react.

 

[Daximus]

By the time it's all said and done Ovi will likely lead in goals, most away goals, most empty net goals, most times leading the league in goals, most goals for a single team, most OT goals, most PP goals, most consecutive 30 goal seasons and most 40, 45 and 50 goal seasons. The only record that might actually be tough to beat is most home goals where he trails Gretzky by 101.

At that point there will be no real argument as to who the best goal scorer of all time is. It will be Ovi followed by Gretz.

 

[NORiculous]

Sorta like posting career gpg after eliminating eng's?

No because you don’t need the same goal scoring skill.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

What I love about this thread is you can easily tell who doesn't watch the game and just comes to hate on Ovechkin.

His line with Sheary and Strome absolutely dominated the Kraken last night.

Look at the plays they were making at 5:08. 9 SOG in the game, Grubi stood on his head all game, but the Caps win 4-1 and he's got 1G 1A.

 

[NORiculous]

What I love about this thread is you can easily tell who doesn't watch the game and just comes to hate on Ovechkin.

His line with Sheary and Strome absolutely dominated the Kraken last night.
View attachment 619583

Look at the plays they were making at 5:08. 9 SOG in the game, Grubi stood on his head all game, but the Caps win 4-1 and he's got 1G 1A.

So one game says it all?

28 games 385,5 minutes 13,768 minutes per game

		-0,3490 (QoC rel Corsi For %)
		80,74 (% of starts in OZ)

CF%:		51,70 GF%: 43,33
CF/60:		63,97 GF/60: 2,023
CA/60:		59,77 GA/60: 2,646

I think he is leading his team in %OZ and he is last in QoC rel Corsi For %.

EDIT: for those that want to know what this means in English, it means OV is getting the easiest ice time of the team.

 

[Hall of Faber]

One could throw what if "ifs" into every single players career. Including Gretz , Jagr, Howe, Bossy, Lafleur, Neely etc

Can you give some out of their control examples?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

So one game says it all?

28 games 385,5 minutes 13,768 minutes per game

		-0,3490 (QoC rel Corsi For %)
		80,74 (% of starts in OZ)

CF%:		51,70 GF%: 43,33
CF/60:		63,97 GF/60: 2,023
CA/60:		59,77 GA/60: 2,646

I think he is leading his team in %OZ and he is last in QoC rel Corsi For %.

I'm not saying one game says it all. The stats you brought up reveal two things.

1. The Caps have been a sub .500 and they get scored on more than they score.
2. Having Ovechkin in the lineup helps with generation of scoring chances, but is not enough to overcome the deficit of talent the Caps have due to aging and injuries (and Ovi is not as dominant as he used to be).

I'm not sure what your point is. He had a great game last night and the Caps look like they might be turning a corner here.

 

[Xoleraz]

The owner said they would do anything in their power to help OV get the record.

If that is what the boss wants…

Completely disagree with this. Sure. They want to keep ovi happy but the goal is to win games. You really think the coaching staff would risk their careers, now or in the future. It's a professional company with the goal of making money. You do that by winning and staying relevant. Of course they want ovi to get the record but I guarantee every player/coach/video guy/trainer and so on cares a lot more about trying to win games then whatever ovi is doing.

The boss of the Caps says Ovi is priority, the record is worth more in business than anything else at this point. Ovis record chase is putting people in the stands more than any short playoff run. Nobody is going to lose their job based on doing everything to get Ovi free goals. Obviously the goal is to win, but with Ovi getting priority.

Its not a question if its happening or not, it is, there is no denying it. Ovi fans should just own it and stop pretending! The pretending is embarrassing, even more so than what the team and Ovi does. Even though I think its a joke I can understand why Ovie and the Caps are doing it. Why his fans are denying it with vengeance is something I suppose we will never fully understand! Most likely its just defend Ovi at all costs, regardless of facts.

 

[NORiculous]

I'm not saying one game says it all. The stats you brought up reveal two things.

1. The Caps have been a sub .500 and they get scored on more than they score.
2. Having Ovechkin in the lineup helps with generation of scoring chances, but is not enough to overcome the deficit of talent the Caps have due to aging and injuries (and Ovi is not as dominant as he used to be).

I'm not sure what your point is. He had a great game last night and the Caps look like they might be turning a corner here.

He helps in generation of scoring chances because he is facing the easiest of opposition and he is doing it at 80% in the OZ.

The team is maximizing his offensive input, while trying to hide his shortcomings, but it is resulting in bad results.

So far, anyway. Will see how it goes from here.

 

[PaulD]

Will it really matter if he finishes with 915 career goals with 65 of them being ENGs?

Didn't Gretz have 51

Can you give some out of their control examples?

Injuries, lock out, WHA stats not counting , no 3 on 3 overtime, ......etc

 

[NORiculous]

As a comparable here is Protas who is a shut down guy with limited ice time facing very tough opposition.

28 games 303,0 minutes 10,822 minutes per game

		0,2922 (QoC rel Corsi For %)
		30,25 (% of starts in OZ)

CF%:		56,26 GF%: 55,56
CF/60:		63,16 GF/60: 1,980
CA/60:		49,11 GA/60: 1,584

EDIT: In English: Protas is having a good season. He is helping his team more then hurting it.

 

[Fallschirmyager]

ovi has a unique role where he floats around saving energy and then gets an easy ride while the other teams players are dead tired. ovi is an amazing goal scorer, but his empty net goals aint nothing impressive at all. he would already have 7 or 8 this season if he had taken his empty net chances, he has actually been poor at it thus far in 2022-23 and yet he is on pace to set a new nhl record again, that says it all about him being fed in a way we´ve not witnessed before in the history of the sport.

as hurricanefanatic pointed out, everyone but ovis fans admits its stat padding of the highest rank. thats whats so annoying.

Almost as annoying as nobody had a problem with empty net goals until Ovy started racking them up. See how that works?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Last I checked, Gretzky is still the top goal scorer and will likely always be, even if is record is passed, due to his dominance with his pass first mentality.

When OV will have the most raw goals, most adjusted goals, only 900 goal scorer, most rockets, most 50/40/30 goal seasons, most road goals, most PPG goals, more top 3/5/10 goal finishes... Gretzky will be the "top goal scorer" because of his passing?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

When OV will have the most raw goals, most adjusted goals, only 900 goal scorer, most rockets, most 50/40/30 goal seasons, most road goals, most PPG goals, more top 3/5/10 goal finishes... Gretzky will be the "top goal scorer" because of his passing?

Despite his pass first mentality.

So Ovechkin is the greatest playmaker of all time due to his goal-first mentality?

Despite his pass first mentality. I could have worded it more clearly, but it wasn’t that difficult to understand…

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

He helps in generation of scoring chances because he is facing the easiest of opposition and he is doing it at 80% in the OZ.

The team is maximizing his offensive input, while trying to hide his shortcomings, but it is resulting in bad results.

So far, anyway. Will see how it goes from here.

So what is Ovechkin supposed to do? Have you seen what the Caps roster looks like?

My problem with the Caps management is that they’re relying on a 37 year old Ovechkin to carry them to victory in an increasingly younger league. The Caps have trouble scoring more than 2 goals per game when he doesn’t find the back of the net.

He’s been asked to carry the team for the past 18 years, and now that he is too old to do so, there is no one rising through the ranks to help.

 

[Beukeboom]

LOL at people talking trash at Ovi's EN goals as though Gretzky didn't have his fair share as well.

Maybe people should look at the other side of the coin and ask how many GWG Ovechkin also has in his career.

One of the greatest players of his generation and of all-time. Period.

It's more about how you score empty netters. Ovie is close to having more empty netters this year than 5 on 5 goals. Gretzky padded his 92 goal a season campaign with some empty netters. Ovie is a man on a mission encouraged by his own team. I'm not saying it's wrong, but one should see it for what it is.

 

[NORiculous]

So what is Ovechkin supposed to do? Have you seen what the Caps roster looks like?

My problem with the Caps management is that they’re relying on a 37 year old Ovechkin to carry them to victory in an increasingly younger league. The Caps have trouble scoring more than 2 goals per game when he doesn’t find the back of the net.

He’s been asked to carry the team for the past 18 years, and now that he is too old to do so, there is no one rising through the ranks to help.

I agree.

OV is doing his best. Management seems happy, since they aren’t doing much.

The first thing I would try is OV a bit less sheltered and a bit less %OZ maybe even a bit less ice time. It’s possible that with a bit less ice time, he performs better, I don’t know but it’s worth a try.

I’d try to give that quality ice time to other guys like Mantha and see how he does.