Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Firsov99]

50 takes him to 830 and leaves him with 65 goals to go.

Piece of cake for him if he's healthy.

I hope so. And it’s not necessarily his health that concerns me. I am more concerned about his speed and stamina. Naturally, any player who gets older loses both, and it becomes harder to score. So, it’s better (or safer rather) that he scores a lot early.

He should retire when he hits 888.

Just for the giggles and respect to the old timers. I am kidding btw. Incredible player.

If Gretsky had 887, then it would have been epic.

 

[ozzie]

I hope so. And it’s not necessarily his health that concerns me. I am more concerned about his speed and stamina. Naturally, any player who gets older loses both, and it becomes harder to score. So, it’s better (or safer rather) that he scores a lot early.


If Gretsky had 887, then it would have been epic.

I am sure the NHL could go back and find some goals that were offside on review.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Don't cross-post old threads from other subfora for the sole purpose of being an asshole.

 

[shtorm2005]

Crazy what he's doing at 37. Only players with more goals are 12 years younger.

 

[amin723]

What’s OV’s goal/point breakdown with the black reverse retro? Feels like he always goes off or breaks a record with those on

It makes him feel young again. Don’t know the numbers.

 

[Randyne]

If Ovechkin consistently made someone like Jay Beagle a 50 goal scorer

Very easy. Make goaltenders play with 80s gears and put Ovechkin behind the net where he can spam assists like crazy. Also make the rule where his opponents can't hit him at all. He'll turn everyone to 50G players.

 

[Mulletman]

Just checked the schedule and Jesus tap dancing Christ! Ovechkin gets to play Columbus and Philadelphia twice each in his next 5 games. Not impossible for Ovechkin to add like 8 goals or more and have like 36+ goals after he's played those 5 games. We might even see 40 goals after just 50 games played, something that Ovechkin has never done before!

 

[User9992]

Just checked the schedule and Jesus tap dancing Christ! Ovechkin gets to play Columbus and Philadelphia twice each in his next 5 games. Not impossible for Ovechkin to add like 8 goals or more and have like 36+ goals after he's played those 5 games. We might even see 40 goals after just 50 games played, something that Ovechkin has never done before!

I think he might did that in 2013-14 season

Nope.

These guys were so amazing that they turned mediocre players like Messier, Coffey, Jagr and Francis into HOFers.

Don't forget Kurri & many others!

 

[Fantomas]

That Jay Beagle post just might be the dumbest thing I've read on HFBoards in 22 years. Or at least close.

 

[Randyne]

000-100 goals | 167 games
100-200 goals | 129 games
200-300 goals | 177 games
300-400 goals | 161 games
400-500 goals | 167 games
500-600 goals | 189 games
600-700 goals | 154 games
700-800 goals | 161 games

808 already so
000-202 goals | 300 games
202-404 goals | 346 games
404-606 goals | 356 games
606-808 goals | 312 games
Scoring is so high that old Ovi almost catch young Ovi

 

[RageQuit77]

000-100 goals | 167 games
100-200 goals | 129 games
200-300 goals | 177 games
300-400 goals | 161 games
400-500 goals | 167 games
500-600 goals | 189 games
600-700 goals | 154 games
700-800 goals | 161 games

"Unsustainably hot scoring streak, that will ultimately normalize at some point"

17 seasons later...

 

[Fallschirmyager]

That’s what you call consistency

That's what you call insanity. Love it

I think he might did that in 2013-14 season

Sorta. He has done 48 in 50 but not from the start of the season.
I took that comment to mean 40 in the first 50 games of the season.

 

[Lshap]

Nobody is claiming Ovechkin is the greatest playmaker of all time, just the greatest scorer.

Exactly. Most hockey fans accept Gretzky as the Greatest all-time playmaker; they'll eventually accept Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer. It just takes time.

Fans of the previous era tried to diminish Gretzky with the same type of "Yeah, but..." storylines, just like some fans today are trying to diminish Ovechkin. Same with every 'greatest' athlete – it's hard to dethrone a previous hero and give the crown to someone new.

 

[Firsov99]

I would argue that is why he isn't a great leader. The one thing that sets the legends apart from anyone else is their ability to make people around them superstars as well.

Gretzky and Mario didn't start with Hall of Famers. They made HOFers out of people around them, though. If Ovechkin consistently made someone like Jay Beagle a 50 goal scorer, then he'd be in my top 4 or 5. He can't. Alone, he's an amazing player and first ballot HOFer, no question. But he doesn't elevate other players like those four did.

I have even a better example. He didn’t turn Holtby into a 50 goal scorer either

 

[RageQuit77]

Nobody, not even Gretzky was HOFer when Gretzky left Oilers to LA. Still he apparently managed influence telekinetically to The Oilers roster to win yet another Stanley Cup at the end of dynasty era.

It is save to assume that future HOF players of Oilers would've done well even without The Great One's influence. How much Gretzky was lifted up by his Oilers team mates?

Ovi is still playing, but it is absurd to think that the greatest goal scorer of all times wouldn't elevate his team mates making them better, if not for other reasons, then by the fact that there are typically guys who get a point too when Ovi scores a goal. You can directly measure that elevating impact by summing up all points that are directly produced from Ovi's goal scoring (something I won't do now).

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovi is still playing, but it is absurd to think that the greatest goal scorer of all times wouldn't elevate his team mates making them better, if not for other reasons, then by the fact that there are typically guys who get a point too when Ovi scores a goal. You can directly measure that elevating impact by summing up all points that are directly produced from Ovi's goal scoring (something I won't do now).

That's been one of the most bizarre and rampant head scratchers in hockey fandom IMO.

When a player makes a great pass that helps another player get a goal, he has made that player better. So good so far.

But when a player makes a great shot that helps another player get an assist, he somehow has NOT made that player better. He's selfish!

Incidentally, Nick Backstrom leads the NHL in secondary assists since he entered the league - by a wide margin. Seeing as how he logged lots of time with Ovie, this is clearly not a coincidence.

 

[RageQuit77]

That's been one of the most bizarre and rampant head scratchers in hockey fandom IMO.

When a player makes a great pass that helps another player get a goal, he has made that player better. So good so far.

But when a player makes a great shot that helps another player get an assist, he somehow has NOT made that player better. He's selfish!

Incidentally, Nick Backstrom leads the NHL in secondary assists since he entered the league - by a wide margin. Seeing as how he logged lots of time with Ovie, this is clearly not a coincidence.

Yes. It is bizarre thing indeed.

I think misconception comes from how three different kinds of 'points' are handled as equal in their value.

A goal is only thing that can ever produce any points, point from it included. A goal scorer produce all point value related to that goal. Assist(s) are always counted only after that fact and even then, internally very inconsistent way, excluding possible 2nd assist by goal scorer himself.

I'm pretty sick and tired to parrot the obvious: Goal Scorers are those guys who produce all the points ever counted, no matter how nice plays are played before a goal, leading to the goal. Playmakers gather points only because a goal scorer was able to score a goal. Simple as hell.

 

[NJDevilsFan21]

Remember when we all projecting what OV needed to do with numbers like 40... 35... 30... etc. And here he is scoring at a higher rate than his career average?

Maybe we should have all done something like this:

37 years old: 42 goals
38 years old: 55 goals
39 years old: 62 goals
40 years old: 66 goals

Total: 1000

 

[RageQuit77]

Imagine Gretzky in his office making perfect saucer passes to a fiercely assaulting line of totally handless, aimless, half-blind Oilers linemates (instead of Kurri, Messier, Anderson et all). Would that impact to his point totals?

How many of Gretzky's assists were counted as such only because his linemates weren't these imaginary total plugs, but instead very skilled goal scorers almost like Gretzky himself?

All of them.

Same of course apply to all players ever played the game. Whoever scores the goal, produces also other points.

CAUSAL CHAIN OF POINT PRODUCTION

1) Player X passes to Player Y
2) Player Y passes to Player Z
3) Player Z score a goal, awarded with 1 point
4) Player Y's pass to Z is retroactively considered as '1st Assist', awarded with 1 point
5) Player X's pass to Y is retroactively considered as '2nd Assist', awarded with 1 point

In case of Player Z being also Player X, 2nd assist and 1 point can be awarded to Player W, because for some weird unexplained illogical reason Goal Scorer cannot 2nd assist his own score even when it is objectively clear he did.

Of course, the causal chain can be simpler than above scheme:

Player X score a goal, awarded with 1 point

In all possible variations, it is always the Goal scoring player whom success and failure determines does point(s) get awarded or not, and this is exactly how it should be in the game which primary aim is to score goals.

All goal scorers however statistically suffer from the fact that they cannot get points for being also playmakers to their goals. They suffer from that statistically more, more prolific they are in goal scoring.

 

[RageQuit77]

To continue this shadow boxing in the defense of a goal scorer. While not the topic per se, it is intimately relevant to this thread because of the nature of Ovi the Player, the epitome of hockey goal scorer.

Largely dysfunctional way to determine and count points impact to a goal scorer many ways.

First, if you score goal, it becomes immediately clear that you cannot get assist from it, even if you de facto made the second pass before your goal.
Second, it is possible that some fellow guy gets your 2nd assist, only because he did 3rd pass before the goal. Such conception as 3rd assist however doesn't exist other way than trivial meaning '3rd touch to puck by teammate before the scored goal'.

Immediate question is why these often rewarded 2nd and 3rd assist points (should we call them 2.5nrd assists) cannot be awarded also to the goal scorer?

While generic playmaker type player systematically and very often enjoy from these points, the goal scorer himself cannot. This causes perception bias tied to the fact that quality of playmaking is most often measured directly from amount of assist points.

So, prolific goal scorers who most likely have most of these uncredited shadow assists, won't get credit for their playmaking abilities to their full extend, and that because of the very structure of dysfunctional way to count something very arbitrary things chosen to be called as 'points'.

If someone can give a numbers how many uncredited 2nd assists the most prolific goal scorers of all time lost due this BS way to count points, I'd be happy to see that data. In other words, it is very probable that those who compiled most incredible goal tallies in their careers would appear in much more brighter light also as playmakers too if the apparent missing playmaking points would be added to their career production numbers. Scoring goals is the only way to produce points, but if you're doing that, it automatically makes you lose them too.

Ovi is certainly one of the guys who appear worse in his playmaking abilities, only because the way points are counted.

As a random player, you statistically get some net benefit to your points production if you don't score goals, as long as someone else does. That is the consequence of and directly rises from the way of current system of counting points.

Edit: bad English, some clarifying additions made

 

[Devil Dancer]

Is it time to remind the forum again that Ovie made Chris goddamn Clark a 30 goal scorer?

 

[SkinsFan09]

With one of the most injured teams in the NHL, missing Wilson, Backstrom, Oshie, and Carlson for either the entire season or chunks of it, on pace for 57 goals. But yup, his goal chase is definitely a detriment to the team winning.

 

[RageQuit77]

With one of the most injured teams in the NHL, missing Wilson, Backstrom, Oshie, and Carlson for either the entire season or chunks of it, on pace for 57 goals. But yup, his goal chase is definitely a detriment to the team winning.

It is amazing. When options for goal scoring diminish, it should be expected that it becomes easier and easier by other teams to scout and contain those who are left as scoring threats. But with Ovi it doesn't work that way. It looks like he has more room than ever in given circumstances, when he has to take whole team upon his shoulders. It doesn't make sense, but it still happens.

 

[Calderon]

The off-season of 2012 was a weird point in time. How many people remember or realize that Ovi was fresh off two of his worst seasons, scoring 32 and 38 goals (78+ games in both seasons) and Stamkos was the reigning Rocket winner. And what I'm getting at here is that not only had Stamkos won his second Rocket but Ovi and Stamkos now both had two Rocket Trophies: they were even but Ovi was trending way down while Stamkos was fresh off getting 60 goals! Since then Ovi's been scoring goals at 0.616 clip and Stamkos at .504 -- oh, and Ovi got an additional seven(!) Rockets. Stamkos of course sustained some pretty bad injuries but he's still third in goals since 12-13 (2nd is, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, his draft buddy Tavares).

 

[itsadoubledion]

The off-season of 2012 was a weird point in time. How many people remember or realize that Ovi was fresh off two of his worst seasons, scoring 32 and 38 goals (78+ games in both seasons) and Stamkos was the reigning Rocket winner. And what I'm getting at here is that not only had Stamkos won his second Rocket but Ovi and Stamkos now both had two Rocket Trophies: they were even but Ovi was trending way down while Stamkos was fresh off getting 60 goals! Since then Ovi's been scoring goals at 0.616 clip and Stamkos at .504 -- oh, and Ovi got an additional seven(!) Rockets. Stamkos of course sustained some pretty bad injuries but he's still third in goals since 12-13 (2nd is, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, his draft buddy Tavares).

Stamkos and Tavares were in different drafts