Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Lol longevity was not Marios fault

He had cancer

and Yes Mario is a better goal scorer than Ovie

I mean I hear ya, but how is an illness any less preventable than a whole slew of other injuries that cut guys careers short. Obviously cancer is more serious than a blown out ACL but all things being equal, injuries are seldom someone’s “fault”. Like cancer, it’s frequently genetics and luck of the draw…


Just seems to be arbitrary to be like “this guy missed X games because of injuries” but also go “you can’t mention that this guy had an illness, that wasn’t something he could avoid.”

 

[Randyne]

Yes but Gretzky was still better at it, so was Mario

No they weren't.

If scoring 90 goals was easy everyone would have done it

If scoring 65 goals was easy everyone would have done it.
Lemieux and Brett Hull were closer to Gretzky's 92 than Stamkos and Matthews to Ovechkin's 65

 

[Toby91ca]

thanks to last night, Ovechkin has no seasons under 20 goals, only other player I can think of who did the same is Mike Bossy

There are a fair number that only fell off the 20 goal a year milestone it their final year though…so we’ll need to wait and see as it’s more likely to happen for someone chasing a total…hanging on to do it…not there yet, but we’ll see.

 

[SensFan4lyfe]

No they weren't.

If scoring 65 goals was easy everyone would have done it.
Lemieux and Brett Hull were closer to Gretzky's 92 than Stamkos and Matthews to Ovechkin's 65

How so Mathews scored 60

I mean I hear ya, but how is an illness any less preventable than a whole slew of other injuries that cut guys careers short. Obviously cancer is more serious than a blown out ACL but all things being equal, injuries are seldom someone’s “fault”. Like cancer, it’s frequently genetics and luck of the draw…


Just seems to be arbitrary to be like “this guy missed X games because of injuries” but also go “you can’t mention that this guy had an illness, that wasn’t something he could avoid.”

Mario if healthy would have scored 800 easily,

 

[Toby91ca]

I mean I hear ya, but how is an illness any less preventable than a whole slew of other injuries that cut guys careers short. Obviously cancer is more serious than a blown out ACL but all things being equal, injuries are seldom someone’s “fault”. Like cancer, it’s frequently genetics and luck of the draw…


Just seems to be arbitrary to be like “this guy missed X games because of injuries” but also go “you can’t mention that this guy had an illness, that wasn’t something he could avoid.”

Mario never played a full season in his entire career…we’ll, one I guess, will give him 79 as full year, he played one year at 77 games and a couple at 76, but keeps going down from there…Cancer didn’t cause that

 

[um]

I mean adjusted totals mean nothing he scored 200 points 5 times

If it was so easy to do in a high scoring era every one would have done it

but they didn't

If scoring 90 goals was easy everyone would have done it

but they didnt

Gretzky did

He would find a way in this era to hit 200 points i fully believe he was that good

What is your point?

Why are you talking about this at all?

Everyone knows who Gretzky is.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Not really

I gate when people pull the adjusted by era shit to make someone look better

What he did is amazing

But he didnt dominate his era like gretzky did

Adjusting for era isn't to "make someone look better", it's a matter of common sense. Or do you think Nicholls peaked higher as a goal scorer than OV, Howe, Richard, Bobby Hull, Bossy, Bure, etc? Because he scored 70 goals in a season and they never did.

OV didn't dominate his era like Gretzky did yet he has almost double the goal scoring titles (9-5) and more top 3/5/10 goal finishes. Not sure how you think a guy with 5 rockets dominated but the guy with 9 didn't.

 

[Randyne]

How so Mathews scored 60

So is Stamkos which is 92.3% of 65, Lemieux and Brett scored 93.5 and 92.4% from 92

 

[BallardEra]

I too, like many others saw Gretzky play and no way is he scoring 200 points in a season in today’s game.

 

[Daximus]

I too, like many others saw Gretzky play and no way is he scoring 200 points in a season in today’s game.

Those Oilers teams were massively stacked to. Not a snowballs chance in hell you'd be able to assemble all that talent on a single team and fit it under the cap.

 

[Frosty415]

WHAT lol

your saying OVIE dominated more than a guy who scored 200 points 5 TIMES???????????

LOL

Gretzky didnt just score goals he created them

THAT IS the dumbest thing ive ever seen posted on this forum lol

Yes, maybe you should read what the topic is about.

OV dominated more than Gretzky ever has in goalscoring, you have yet to counter this argument.

He dominated scoring GOALS, not scoring.

Yes, that's what this topic is about.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Is it better to attempt to adjust for differences in era or pretend that a sport hasn't changed in 40 years?

Look at the goalies a guy like Bossy was shooting against:
View attachment 621537

Goes both ways though. Look at the size of the stick of that Quebec player defending. Would never fly in today's NHL.

 

[NORiculous]

I gate when people pull the adjusted by era shit to make someone look better

What he did is amazing

But he didnt dominate his era like gretzky did

Adjusting for era isn't to "make someone look better", it's a matter of common sense. Or do you think Nicholls peaked higher as a goal scorer than OV, Howe, Richard, Bobby Hull, Bossy, Bure, etc? Because he scored 70 goals in a season and they never did.

OV didn't dominate his era like Gretzky did yet he has almost double the goal scoring titles (9-5) and more top 3/5/10 goal finishes. Not sure how you think a guy with 5 rockets dominated but the guy with 9 didn't.

Era adjustment isn’t a 100% bulletproof way of looking at things.

If you take 100 players and change them eras, the average should work out but not the individuals. A majority of the 100 players would perform the same (according the the adjusted era multiplier) a few would perform worse and a few would perform better.

This is explained by the fact that some people would be better built for the other era including the use of equipment, technics, strategies, etc. And some people would be worse off. It’s just a normal humain thing.

So, when we understand this, we can extrapolate that this theory can’t be applied to a single individual because we simply do not know how he would react.

Would he be better, same or worse? etc.

So although it is interesting to compare players from different eras, it isn’t that simple of math.

 

[Dingo]

10 players scored 50 or more goals the year that Wayne scored 92

we don’t need to talk about sticks and training or anything else to recognize that the numbers don’t mean the same thing from year to year.

There was a large stretch of seasons up until Matthews where Ovechkin was the only person to have scored 50 in a season, aside from one from Stamkos and one from Crosby.

Unless we want to start batting Stouthton, Vaive and Maruk around as HOF names who would have done even better with modern training, no two line pass, etc…. we need to be reasonable - scoring was easier then. How much can be argued, but i do think league averages are a pretty decent place to start.

 

[Captain97]

That was a joke.

I know it was a joke but just imagine he skates off the ice the moment the goal is scored/made sure no challenge. And goes straight to some caps beat reporter and announces his retirement it would be incredible and would live on in history forever.

 

[BallardEra]

How many of these players score 50 in today's game?:

Wayne Babych
Rick Kehoe
Blaine Stoughton
Pierre Larouche
Jacques Richard
Al Secord
Mike Bullard
John Ogrodnick
Bobby Carpenter
Jimmy Carson
Hakan Loob
Bernie Nicholls
Joe Mullen
Gary Leeman
Brian Bellows

 

[User9992]

Gretz padded his stats in high scoring 80's... then his numbers went down drastically in 90's.

That's harsh truth most people here won't like

 

[Seras]

According to my calculator player A is far behind player B

 

[Arthur Morgan]

this thread makes me feel old. what a career he's had so far. I wonder what he realistically finishes at.
its just a matter of time before he passes Gretzky

 

[RVACapsFan]

this thread makes me feel old. what a career he's had so far. I wonder what he realistically finishes at.
its just a matter of time before he passes Gretzky

His ceiling IMO is 920-ish. He will (presumably) slow down in a few years and I think he’ll retire the season after he eclipses Gretzky, if he does it.

Goes both ways though. Look at the size of the stick of that Quebec player defending. Would never fly in today's NHL.

View attachment 621629

What were goals per game in the NHL when Bossy played vs. today?

 

[Sentinel]

Those Oilers teams were massively stacked to. Not a snowballs chance in hell you'd be able to assemble all that talent on a single team and fit it under the cap.

No they weren't. They were an EXPANSION team, starting from scratch, full of young, reasonably paid players. As soon as Oilers stars became too expensive, Pocklington traded them. We are not talking DPE Detroit or NYR here.

 

[Sentinel]

I too, like many others saw Gretzky play and no way is he scoring 200 points in a season in today’s game.

With no Dave Semenko as his partner, no two-line offside, better skates and sticks, the no-touch rules, goalies going down as soon as the offensive player enters their zone, and the 3-on-3 OT? He is scoring MORE than 200.

Today's NHL is all about "systems." A mind like Gretzky would expose them day in, day out. He would TORCH this league.

 

[innitfam]

No they weren't. They were an EXPANSION team, starting from scratch, full of young, reasonably paid players. As soon as Oilers stars became too expensive, Pocklington traded them. We are not talking DPE Detroit or NYR here.

They weren't an expansion team. They came from the WHA with their cornerstone, Gretzky. They drafted Messier, Kurri, Fuhr, Moog, Lowe and Anderson from 79-81.

They were paid 'reasonably' because salaries were peanuts back then.

By their third NHL year they were a powerhouse. Won a cup by their fifth year. By their 10th year of NHL existence they had 4 cups. They made the playoffs their first 13 years. 5 Cups, 6 finals appearances. They were stacked, to varying degrees, all thru the 1980s.

 

[AD1066]

With no Dave Semenko as his partner, no two-line offside, better skates and sticks, the no-touch rules, goalies going down as soon as the offensive player enters their zone, and the 3-on-3 OT? He is scoring MORE than 200.

Today's NHL is all about "systems." A mind like Gretzky would expose them day in, day out. He would TORCH this league.

You're essentially just hand-waving the data away in favor of what you feel to be true. There's nothing to suggest Gretzky would score more today than he did in an era when there were 30% more goals to go around and an .890 SV% was good enough for a Vezina.

 

[Dingo]

Gretz padded his stats in high scoring 80's... then his numbers went down drastically in 90's.

That's harsh truth most people here won't like

they even dropped, as did his gaps over the next best, by the late 80s, when he was still in his twenties

People dont try as hard when there is less money. If one guy does approach things full on, he has an immense advantage. All the tslk of today’s training - well, thats just what you have to do in order to be EVEN. There IS no getting ahead in a truly pro sport, there is only keeping up

With no Dave Semenko as his partner, no two-line offside, better skates and sticks, the no-touch rules, goalies going down as soon as the offensive player enters their zone, and the 3-on-3 OT? He is scoring MORE than 200.

Today's NHL is all about "systems." A mind like Gretzky would expose them day in, day out. He would TORCH this league.

provided you also think Maruk and Vaive and the gang would be better than everyone now, ok, its consistent.