Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[PaulD]

Same number as Mario Lemieux, Gordie Howe, Mark Messier, etc...

Surprising aint it.

Wayne has 4 btw

 

[mrv52]

Gret

Stanley Cup Champs were their identity fur awhile.
He has been the face of the franchise for two decades sure .....but a team identity? They don't have one anymore.

Your efforts here are noted.

Being new to the sport is nothing to be ashamed of. Keep reading sites like these and one day you will have a better grip of the game.

 

[Beau Knows]

There's also the pro-Ovi stat that out of his 800 goals he's got 124 GW while Gretz ended up with 91.

For sure, obviously similar things to take into account: 4 on 4 and 3 on 3 OT increase the amount of potential GWGs.

 

[PaulD]

Yep. Haters hate his top 3 hardware conquered in the toughest worldwide pool ever, pretending that means nothing.
In 16 seasons out of 114 major trophies Ovechkin won 16% of them. If NHL treated him like Crosby he could've won 19% of them (22 trophies= 3 Ross, 4 Harts, 10 Rockets, 3 TL, Smythe, Calder. Top 2 all-time hardware behind only Gretzky).

So your are a Crosby hater........calling out OV haters ?

Why not drop the hate word and just have grand old debate .

Your efforts here are noted.

Being new to the sport is nothing to be ashamed of. Keep reading sites like these and one day you will have a better grip of the game.

Will I sound as condescending as you do?

 

[TheBeard]

For sure, obviously similar things to take into account: 4 on 4 and 3 on 3 OT increase the amount of potential GWGs.

Sure does. Ovi did, however, only score 10 of his OTs at 3-3.

 

[norrisnick]

Surprising aint it.

Wayne has 4 btw

So does Dale Hunter

 

[PaulD]

So does Dale Hunter

Sakic has 6 I think

 

[TheBeard]

Sakic has 6 I think

8

 

[um]

Gret

Stanley Cup Champs were their identity fur awhile.
He has been the face of the franchise for two decades sure .....but a team identity? They don't have one anymore.

Caps haven’t had high draft picks and they’ve been buyers for awhile now. Of course they were gonna become mediocre/crappy eventually. The same thing has happened to the Pens.

That’s the one tiny downside to having superstars like Ovie/Crosby/Malkin. It’s hard to get high draft picks.

 

[norrisnick]

Caps haven’t had high draft picks and they’ve been buyers for awhile now. Of course they were gonna become mediocre/crappy eventually. The same thing has happened to the Pens.

That’s the one tiny downside to having superstars like Ovie/Crosby/Malkin. It’s hard to get high draft picks.

Welcome to the downside of a long stretch of success.

-signed Red Wing fan

 

[PaulD]

8

Unstoppable when it mattered most.
Smokin Joe

 

[WarriorofTime]

Howe was probably the greatest goalscorer ever who Ovechkin had to beat to claim the title.
There is a pretty convincing argument that Bobby Hull never surpassed Howe as a goalscorer in terms of career achievements unless one puts a lot of stock into WHA seasons, and nobody else before Ovechkin really came close.

I'd go with Bobby Hull. He lead the NHL in goals seven times (second to Ovechkin's nine) and is tied for 12th in career adjusted goals. His 1,063 NHL only games are a lot less than the guys ahead of him on the list. It's really hard to translate the WHA goals to NHL goals, he was a 50 in 78 goal scorer the last season he was in the NHL (not counting when the leagues merged at the extreme end which was 27 games at age 41). He was still a monster in the WHA with 303 goals in 411 games. It'd likely be some lower number, but I think he'd definitely be 3rd in career adjusted goals to Ovechkin and Howe. He also deserves a lot of credit from my point of view for leading the NHL in goals 7 times, which is second only to Ovechkin's nine. Howe lead them 5 times.

The big difference though is how much stronger Ovechkin's peak seasons were.

Ovechkin has season number 2, T-25, T-30, T-39, T-49, T-49, T-60, T-80, T-111, T-111, T-143, T-168, T-191 in terms of Single Season Adjusted Goals Per Game

Hull has season number T-49, T-60, T-60, T-92, T-143, T-168, so that's not particularly close.

Lemieux has season number T-3 (note that's where McDavid's current season is, so keep an eye on that), T-11, T-39, T-71, T-111. So while Lemieux was insane on a GPG basis, his best seasons trail off pretty quick considering Ovechkin's 10th best goal scoring season is equal to Lemieux's 5th best on a full season basis.

Howe has season number T-14, T-80, T-80, T-80, T-143... I think it's pretty close between Hull and Howe to be honest. I just gotta think given how good Hull still was in the WHA and the extra Retro Rockets makes me give it to Hull.

Gretzky is 7, T-8, T-49, T-60, T-111.... certainly no slouch but the gaudy totals are almost certainly propped up by era.

 

[TheBeard]

Unstoppable when it mattered most.
Smokin Joe

He couldn’t win squat until he got a goalie

 

[Hanji]

Gret

Stanley Cup Champs were their identity fur awhile.
He has been the face of the franchise for two decades sure .....but a team identity? They don't have one anymore.

In the context of what you decribe, you clearly don't understand the definition of team identity.

Team identity is what a team wants to be and what they want to achieve. The Caps identity is to win the Cup regardless of how bad they are; and regardless of Ovechkin's record chase.

There isn't a single player in their lockeroom who goes into a game with the #1 intention of getting Ovi the record; Ovechkin himself probably included.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He couldn’t win squat until he got a goalie

funny how all the great "winners" in NHL history had hall of fame teammates to help them along the way, almost like (*whispers silently*) hockey is a team game where overall depth and roster construction matters a lot more than one superstar carrying a team on his back

 

[TheBeard]

Welcome to the downside of a long stretch of success.

-signed Red Wing fan

Seconded

- a sharks fan

 

[PaulD]

In the context of what you decribe, you clearly don't understand the definition of team identity.

Team identity is what a team wants to be and what they want to achieve. The Caps identity is to win the Cup regardless of how bad they are; and regardless of Ovechkin's record chase.

There isn't a single player in their lockeroom who goes into a game with the #1 intention of getting Ovi the record; Ovechkin himself probably included.

Ok. Thanks Teacher.
I'll be sure and check with you for clarity before my next post .

Cheers

He couldn’t win squat until he got a goalie

Who could ?

 

[filinski77]

The dead puck era started earlier as it was a progressive downward trend of goals scored all throughout the 90's until it reached its peak in 97.

95-96 had a similar scoring rate to the present and Lemieux was goals per game. The 80's had much higher scoring rates than anything post 94 and despite all the scoring going down, was still goals per game.

You also mention 35 goals, ommiting it was in 43 games. Why? You know full well it's a much higher rate of goal scoring than the rest of the league, so you mention just 35 so it looks like you're making a point.

35 goals in 43 games, being beat-up, old, right smack in the dead puck era in 00-01. Only 3 50 goals scorers that year, all had weaker gpg than Lemieux.

Ovechkin's version of the DPE was still a much lower scoring environment than the late-90's / early 2000's.

AND THEN consider that Lemieux played pretty much his whole peak in one of the highest scoring era's.

AND THEN consider that Ovechkin played pretty much his whole peak/prime in one of the lowest.

As far as your argument about the 35 goals in 43 games. Yes - very impressive in and of itself. But, you start to fall into fallacious thinking if you think that goal/gp rate is anything but an anomaly. His goal/gp rate 3 full years in 1997 was much lower over a full season than it was in 2001 (and he was 3 years younger). Then it significantly dropped and was nowhere close for the remaining years after that.

Same deal where Ovechkin scored 48 goals in 68 GP. He was on pace for 58 goals, despite not being close to that for years before that, or the season after it. It was a great season, but clearly an anomaly of great production.

	10th points	30th points
1995	91	73
1996	107	82
1997	88	73
1998	79	65
1999	89	64
2000	79	68
2001	89	76
2002	77	67
2003	85	69
2004	79	65
AVG	86	70
2008	87	72
2009	88	73
2010	86	70
2011	77	66
2012	78	67
2013	84	70
2014	79	65
2015	73	64
2016	77	63
2017	75	64
AVG	80	67

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ovechkin's version of the DPE was still a much lower scoring environment than the late-90's / early 2000's.

AND THEN consider that Lemieux played pretty much his whole peak in one of the highest scoring era's.

AND THEN consider that Ovechkin played pretty much his whole peak/prime in one of the lowest.

As far as your argument about the 35 goals in 43 games. Yes - very impressive in and of itself. But, you start to fall into fallacious thinking if you think that goal/gp rate is anything but an anomaly. His goal/gp rate 3 full years in 1997 was much lower over a full season than it was in 2001 (and he was 3 years younger). Then it significantly dropped and was nowhere close for the remaining years after that.

Same deal where Ovechkin scored 48 goals in 68 GP. He was on pace for 58 goals, despite not being close to that for years before that, or the season after it. It was a great season, but clearly an anomaly of great production.

	10th points	30th points
1995	91	73
1996	107	82
1997	88	73
1998	79	65
1999	89	64
2000	79	68
2001	89	76
2002	77	67
2003	85	69
2004	79	65
AVG	86	70
2008	87	72
2009	88	73
2010	86	70
2011	77	66
2012	78	67
2013	84	70
2014	79	65
2015	73	64
2016	77	63
2017	75	64
AVG	80	67

Also keep in mind you'd expect 30th in the League to be higher today as there are more teams (aka more "number 1 guys"), I know I'm not breaking any ground here but 30th in a six team league would be the "worst fifth best guy" on average, so like a 2nd liner, as opposed to a 30 team league where he'd be the "worst best guy".

 

[TheBeard]

funny how all the great "winners" in NHL history had hall of fame teammates to help them along the way, almost like (*whispers silently*) hockey is a team game where overall depth and roster construction matters a lot more than one superstar carrying a team on his back

I mean are there any other HoFers on the caps? Maybe you can make an argument for Backstrom but that’s basically it.

 

[PaulD]

He couldn’t win squat until he got a goalie

Big game player . St Patrick Roy didn't score those 8 overtime goals. Neither did anyone else .

 

[Hanji]

Big game player . St Patrick Roy didn't score those 8 overtime goals. Neither did anyone else .

Good for Sakic.

Not sure what that has to do with Ovechkin though.

 

[filinski77]

Also keep in mind you'd expect 30th in the League to be higher today as there are more teams (aka more "number 1 guys"), I know I'm not breaking any ground here but 30th in a six team league would be the "worst fifth best guy" on average, so like a 2nd liner, as opposed to a 30 team league where he'd be the "worst best guy".

26 teams in 1993, and 27th team in 1998. Trivial difference from the 30 that Ovechkin played with.

So while I agree with your argument that a top-10 finish in the current era > top-10 finish in the O6/pre-expansion days, that argument doesn't apply to my analysis (which still comfortably shows that Ovechkin played in a lower scoring era than the DPE).

 

[Midnight Judges]

The "When Ovechkin scores goals, it hurts the team" narrative is quite possibly the dumbest sports narrative I've ever heard.

 

[Toby91ca]

26 teams in 1993, and 27th team in 1998. Trivial difference from the 30 that Ovechkin played with.

So while I agree with your argument that a top-10 finish in the current era > top-10 finish in the O6/pre-expansion days, that argument doesn't apply to my analysis (which still comfortably shows that Ovechkin played in a lower scoring era than the DPE).

What am I missing? I haven’t read much here just focusing on comment that Ovechkin played in a lower scoring era than the DPE….how? DPE had goals per game between 2.57 to 2.76….the average for OV’s career is significantly higher than that…if we’re comparing to Lemieux, doesn’t matter as Lemieux played in higher scoring era as well…so again, just focused on the DPE comment