Ovechkin just won his 9th Rocket. Does this change how you view him?

[filinski77]

His own choice is out of his control?

I was implying that this global pandemic was completely out of anyone in the NHL's control. Whereas in a normal NHL season, almost all games played that are missed by a player are the result of either their on-ice outcomes (suspension or injury), or a personal choice not to play.

 

[Theokritos]

I was implying that this global pandemic was completely out of anyone in the NHL's control. Whereas in a normal NHL season, almost all games played that are missed by a player are the result of either their on-ice outcomes (suspension or injury), or a personal choice not to play.

So you wrote the opposite of what you meant:

Despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (suspension, injury, choice etc)

 

[JackSlater]

My point is you can narrow any trophy win, cup win, single goal or whatever other accomplishment down to nothing by saying "today vs yesterday how much does this change his career".

I agree looking only, or even mostly at awards is very limiting. But typicaly i look at a player from many different angles - and trophies is one of those. So yes - 9 rockets is a really great total.

Acknowledging the very limited usefulness of those things as player assessment tools does not render anything "down to nothing". It's the same thing as the baffling claims by some that Ovechkin should rank higher all time because Washington finally won a Stanley Cup. The player is the player and far too many people end up comparing resumes but passing it off as an attempt at comparing players. I'm guilty of it as well but we're talking about a player most of us have likely seen play many times over the duration of his NHL career. The NHL deciding to end the regular season and thus giving Ovechkin another trophy shouldn't change a thing for anyone who has followed the player.

 

[sr edler]

I was implying that this global pandemic was completely out of anyone in the NHL's control. Whereas in a normal NHL season, almost all games played that are missed by a player are the result of either their on-ice outcomes (suspension or injury), or a personal choice not to play.

You still listed suspensions as something out of someone's control. Ovi's suspension when he pushed Brian Campbell into the boards for instance, resulting in a broken collarbone and rib, was certainly in his own control. No external force forced Ovechkin to push Campbell into the boards like that. I don't believe Ovechkin maliciously tried to injure Campbell, but you are responsible for your own actions, for how you play. Pushing someone into the boards like that is very reckless and risky.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yeah, I can’t say I see Ovechkin passing Jagr anytime soon. I think Ovechkin would have needed to have been a consistent top-10 scorer for the last five years or so.

Granted, I think Jagr is the greatest European player player of all-time (and would have Ovechkin as #2), so it’s not really an insult.

If I had to draw a parallel to another historical accomplishment, I would say this means as much as Martin Brodeur leading the league in Wins on 9 occasions. There’s a lot of red lettering on the back of their hockey cards but not necessarily in the columns you would like to see it.

And just like not everyone Brodeur competed against for Wins received 70+ starts each season for a good team, not everyone Ovechkin competed against for Goals gets a designated hitter role that relieves other offensive responsibilities like giving the puck as much as receiving it.

Pastrnak (3rd), Crosby (2nd), Stamkos (2nd), Perry (3rd), Crosby (2nd), Stamkos (5th), Lecavalier (3rd), Cheechoo (10th), Kovalchuk (2nd), Hejduk (4th), Iginla (1st), Bure (7th), Bure (2nd), and Selanne (2nd) all had enough balance to where they could be both goal-heavy players AND top-10 scorers.

The only ones to miss that threshold since the Rocket Richard Trophy was first awarded were Nash and Iginla sharing Kovalchuk’s title in 2004, and then Ovechkin four times in the last five years.

He had some fantastic seasons at the beginning of his career that established his reputation as someone who might be Bobby Hull if 2006-2010 became his baseline performance for 10 more years, but instead, he’s just been stockpiling some of the worst seasons by a Rocket Richard winner and people keep asking is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet?

Dude is in danger of not even being Patrick Kane.

 

[daver]

FWIW,

Worse Goals to Assist ratios in the last 50 years (min. 50 goals) -

1. Ovechkin (19/20) - 2.53 (50 goal pace)

2. Ovechkin (15/16) - 2.38

3. L. MacDonald (82/83) - 2.05

4. Reggie Leach (75/76) - 2.03

5. Hull (90/91) - 1.91

6. Ovechkin (14/15) - 1.89


Others since 2005 (among Top 50)

Boyes (07/08) - 1.95

Laine (17/18) - 1.69

Stamkos (11/12) - 1.62

 

[Theokritos]

You still listed suspensions as something out of someone's control. Ovi's suspension when he pushed Brian Campbell into the boards for instance, resulting in a broken collarbone and rib, was certainly in his own control. No external force forced Ovechkin to push Campbell into the boards like that. I don't believe Ovechkin maliciously tried to injure Campbell, but you are responsible for your own actions, for how you play. Pushing someone into the boards like that is very reckless and risky.

In his last post, he was grouping on-ice outcomes like suspensions together with personal choice, as opposed to missing games due to a pandemy. So that makes sense. It just his initial post that was mis-worded.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He had some fantastic seasons at the beginning of his career that established his reputation as someone who might be Bobby Hull if 2006-2010 became his baseline performance for 10 more years, but instead, he’s just been stockpiling some of the worst seasons by a Rocket Richard winner and people keep asking is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet?

Dude is in danger of not even being Patrick Kane.

IMO this is really really really underrating the scale of what Ovechkin has achieved. It's been a close call between him and Hull for a few years now.

Can't see anybody having Ovechkin and Kane close to each other in an all-time ranking when the dust settles.

 

[Sentinel]

You still listed suspensions as something out of someone's control. Ovi's suspension when he pushed Brian Campbell into the boards for instance, resulting in a broken collarbone and rib, was certainly in his own control. No external force forced Ovechkin to push Campbell into the boards like that. I don't believe Ovechkin maliciously tried to injure Campbell, but you are responsible for your own actions, for how you play. Pushing someone into the boards like that is very reckless and risky.

But a lockout and a half and a global pandemic a very much beyond his control. He would be a lot closer to Gretzky if not for those.

Again, people seem to be ignoring that Ovechkin's unique talent is what his team's game strategy is based on. It's not like he is a puckhog and plays die on his stick. He contributes to the team in the best way possible (which is coach's decision anyway).

And, again, people: HE HAS OVER 600 ASSISTS TOTAL! Whattahell!

Yes, he should be ranked over Hull and Jagr. His three Harts are equal to Hull's and Jagr's COMBINED. His Richards are two more than Hull's and Jagr's COMBINED. With far lesser teammates.

People have a problem calling spade a spade.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Teams often put two players on Bobby Hull. Have Ovi even been shadowed by a single player at any significant time period? Like a series or something..., like Zetterberg on Crosby, or Kesler on McDavid, both times in the playoffs. Serious question.

Of course they do. In fact it's to a significantly higher degree than Crosby has ever had to contend with because there is no other generational player on the Capitals.

Think about it this way: Crosby led the Penguins in playoff points 4 or 5 times in 12 seasons. Same for goals - 4 or 5 times in 12 tries. Ovechkin led the Caps 8 times in 11 seasons in both categories. So the question of who to gameplan for is far less ambiguous on the Capitals than the Penguins. Malkin is often just as big of a threat to score as Crosby is. There is no player on the Capitals that you could possibly say that about relative to Ovechkin. So he gets the top match-ups significantly more often than Sid.

 

[daver]

He had some fantastic seasons at the beginning of his career that established his reputation as someone who might be Bobby Hull if 2006-2010 became his baseline performance for 10 more years, but instead, he’s just been stockpiling some of the worst seasons by a Rocket Richard winner and people keep asking is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet?

It is an interesting question as to why OV could not stay somewhat close to his 06 - 10 level longer. He showed flashes of it in 12/13 and in 14/15 and his Conn Smythe was well earned but he really did morph into a designated shooter earlier than one would have expected.

Was that style of play not sustainable? Did d-men get smarter on how to play him? I have always thought of him as more of an instinctual player than a cerebral one which may explain things.

I wonder if the disappointment of the 2010 Olympics and the loss to Montreal affected his confidence.

 

[daver]

IMO this is really really really underrating the scale of what Ovechkin has achieved. It's been a close call between him and Hull for a few years now.

Can't see anybody having Ovechkin and Kane close to each other in an all-time ranking when the dust settles.

Not sure that you can say OV quite hit Hull's peak which answers one of the main questions to ask in a comparison: Who was simply the better hockey player?

 

[filinski77]

So you wrote the opposite of what you meant:

You still listed suspensions as something out of someone's control. Ovi's suspension when he pushed Brian Campbell into the boards for instance, resulting in a broken collarbone and rib, was certainly in his own control. No external force forced Ovechkin to push Campbell into the boards like that. I don't believe Ovechkin maliciously tried to injure Campbell, but you are responsible for your own actions, for how you play. Pushing someone into the boards like that is very reckless and risky.

My original post said:
"Those 80 points would be good for around the 23rd most points ever by a 34 year old player (83 for example if he picked up the pace a couple points would be 17th). Despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (suspension, injury, choice etc), he still finished with the most goals ever by a 34 year old player."

The point of this paragraph is to illustrate how this season, Ovechkin has scored the most goals ever for a 34 year-old player, despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (global pandemic). The parenthesized items containing [suspension, injury, choice], refer to things that are in a players control. What I mean by this is things that happen to a player because it was something that happened in the flow of an NHL game, or it was quite literally their choice not to play.

It appears you are arguing over semantics, or a misunderstanding due to what I would have assumed to have been implied knowledge regarding this season. Considering that Ovechkin only missed 1 game this season due to choice, and the majority of it due to a pandemic, I thought it would have been blatantly clear that my paranthesized examples were referring to things in a situation that I was contrasting.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Michael Farkas]

As they age and lose physical prowess, some players strip things from their game and remain on a singular focus to stay up...some add things to their game to become more adaptable and versatile.

Ovechkin has stripped from his game. Now he's just out there throwing it past goalies whenever he wants...still...like he has since day one. Now there's even less puck carrying and hitting on the forecheck, etc. Two ways to look at it...he's now, at best, as valuable as the raw goal number because there's not much else to his game now. Or, Ovechkin on cruise control, still found time to lead the league in goals. It depends on your angle of view...

Lemieux and Gretzky didn't really add to their games at the end...they just went down doing what they did and that was that...

Crosby, like Yzerman and Beliveau, has been adding to his game. He's actually deserving of Selke votes he's getting now (they were premature before), and he's trying to make up for the natural athletic decline...so he'll probably take a hit on points a bit, but he'll be better defensively...again, depending on your lens, you can say whether you like that or don't...

 

[Sentinel]

It is an interesting question as to why OV could not stay somewhat close to his 06 - 10 level longer. He showed flashes of it in 12/13 and in 14/15 and his Conn Smythe was well earned but he really did morph into a designated shooter earlier than one would have expected.

Was that style of play not sustainable? Did d-men get smarter on how to play him? I have always thought of him as more of an instinctual player than a cerebral one which may explain things.

I wonder if the disappointment of the 2010 Olympics and the loss to Montreal affected his confidence.

Some of it had to do with coaches. Oates' and Hunter's strategy were not as conductive to that style.

 

[Sentinel]

Not sure that you can say OV quite hit Hull's peak which answers one of the main questions to ask in a comparison: Who was simply the better hockey player?

Hard to say, as both were a force of nature at their peak. But what's absolutely undisputable is the relative quality of their teammates.

 

[Theokritos]

It appears you are arguing over semantics, or a misunderstanding due to what I would have assumed to have been implied knowledge regarding this season.

Please re-read what you wrote.

"Despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (suspension, injury, choice etc)"

Suspensions and choice are out of his control?

 

[Fantomas]

He barely managed to survive having one of the worst playoff reputation of all-time. He won that SC, good for him. He dodged an immense bullet. It doesn't excuse everything. Globe-trotter team.

Absurd.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Ovechkin has scored the most goals ever for a 34 year-old player

Bucyk scored 51 goals as a 35-year-old, and added 65 assists. Selanne scored 48 goals as a 36-year-old, and added 46 assists. Messier scored 47 goals as a 35-year-old, and added 52 assists. Howe scored 44 goals as a 40-year-old, and added 59 assists.

Of the 12 players aged 34 or older who scored 40+ goals, only 2 had fewer than 40 assists. Esposito (36 assists) and Ovechkin (19 assists).

So not only did Ovechkin not have the highest single-year goal total for his age, everyone with comparable goal totals didn’t have to sacrifice their playmaking to anywhere near the same degree.

 

[GMR]

Hard to say, as both were a force of nature at their peak. But what's absolutely undisputable is the relative quality of their teammates.

For this era, the Capitals have had their share of talent. No use in comparing them to an original six team. Back then, the talent was spread out over fewer teams. That said, Chicago's talent was not on the same level as other teams in Hull's time. There's a reason why Montreal and Toronto won more Cups.

A player can put up big numbers playing with terrible teammates (see Iginla). Good teammates affect team success. Not necessarily individual success.

 

[sr edler]

But a lockout and a half and a global pandemic a very much beyond his control. He would be a lot closer to Gretzky if not for those.

Again, people seem to be ignoring that Ovechkin's unique talent is what his team's game strategy is based on. It's not like he is a puckhog and plays die on his stick. He contributes to the team in the best way possible (which is coach's decision anyway).

And, again, people: HE HAS OVER 600 ASSISTS TOTAL! Whattahell!

Yes, he should be ranked over Hull and Jagr. His three Harts are equal to Hull's and Jagr's COMBINED. His Richards are two more than Hull's and Jagr's COMBINED. With far lesser teammates.

People have a problem calling spade a spade.

Ovechkin's had very good teammates, except in his rookie year. He's been on 3 Presidents' Trophy winning team, you don't win 3 Presidents' Trophies with mediocre teammates. His last Hart Trophy was a gimme. He had 1 more point than P. Kane, 3 more points than Eric Staal, and both Bäckström and Ribeiro scored at a good clip on his own team. But he's always been popular with the voters because he's a happy-go-character.

The guy is a hell of an athletic specimen though, which makes it even more disappointing that he's been playing such a designated role the last decade.

 

[Fantomas]

He had some fantastic seasons at the beginning of his career that established his reputation as someone who might be Bobby Hull if 2006-2010 became his baseline performance for 10 more years, but instead, he’s just been stockpiling some of the worst seasons by a Rocket Richard winner and people keep asking is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet? Is he Bobby Hull yet?

The guy has only managed a Hart trophy, another Hart runner up and a Conn Smythe since those seasons. What a shmuck.

Does Bobby Hull even live up to the standards of Bobby Hull?

 

[sr edler]

Of course they do. In fact it's to a significantly higher degree than Crosby has ever had to contend with because there is no other generational player on the Capitals.

Think about it this way: Crosby led the Penguins in playoff points 4 or 5 times in 12 seasons. Same for goals - 4 or 5 times in 12 tries. Ovechkin led the Caps 8 times in 11 seasons in both categories. So the question of who to gameplan for is far less ambiguous on the Capitals than the Penguins. Malkin is often just as big of a threat to score as Crosby is. There is no player on the Capitals that you could possibly say that about relative to Ovechkin. So he gets the top match-ups significantly more often than Sid.

If Washington didn't channel all their pucks through Ovi they would have been harder to defend against. Bäckström's no Malkin but he's damn talented and he has used his shot way too little through the years. Bäckström's shot is pretty good which he has showed occasionally (09–10 season and in some playoff series).

 

[filinski77]

Please re-read what you wrote.

"Despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (suspension, injury, choice etc)"

Suspensions and choice are out of his control?

I already apologized for a mix-up in the semantics dude. Not sure what the hell your problem is. My last post just explained exactly what I was trying illustrate, and my point still stands. To fix this for you so you can stop continuing to go on and complain about it, despite my main point still being the exact same:

"Those 80 points would be good for around the 23rd most points ever by a 34 year old player (83 for example if he picked up the pace a couple points would be 17th). Despite being forced to lose games for things out of his control (ie. NOT: suspension, injury, choice etc), he still finished with the most goals ever by a 34 year old player."

Sorry for expecting you to be able to read between the lines of that. I thought it was fairly clear that since I was talking about Ovechkin's current season (where there was no suspension/injury or significant choices made), that what I parenthesized would be related to things that are not factors in Ovechkins current year.

Once again, sorry. (Now please stop responding about stupid semantics, and so will I).

 

[filinski77]

Bucyk scored 51 goals as a 35-year-old, and added 65 assists. Selanne scored 48 goals as a 36-year-old, and added 46 assists. Messier scored 47 goals as a 35-year-old, and added 52 assists. Howe scored 44 goals as a 40-year-old, and added 59 assists.

Of the 12 players aged 34 or older who scored 40+ goals, only 2 had fewer than 40 assists. Esposito (36 assists) and Ovechkin (19 assists).

So not only did Ovechkin not have the highest single-year goal total for his age, everyone with comparable goal totals didn’t have to sacrifice their playmaking to anywhere near the same degree.

Not sure I really care about any of what you just said. My post was regarding a 34 year-old season, and I am basing the stat/accomplishment based off of: 34-Year Old NHL Players - Regular Season Stats

All I was illustrating is that this was the best goalscoring season (and still one of the best overall point-wise) of a 34 year old season ever in the NHL. And regardless, still one of the best (top 2 or 3 most likely) goalscoring seasons of any player 34 or older. The assist totals are not relevant to that at all.