Ovechkin just won his 9th Rocket. Does this change how you view him?

[Sentinel]

For this era, the Capitals have had their share of talent. No use in comparing them to an original six team. Back then, the talent was spread out over fewer teams. That said, Chicago's talent was not on the same level as other teams in Hull's time. There's a reason why Montreal and Toronto won more Cups.

A player can put up big numbers playing with terrible teammates (see Iginla). Good teammates affect team success. Not necessarily individual success.

FOUR of Hull's teammates were top-tier Hall of Famers. Ovechkin -- NONE. In fact, other than elderly Fedorov, he is likely to have played with zero Hall of Famers at all (unless there is a particularly lean year, and Backstrom or Holtby somehow make it).

You can make all the era distinctions you want, but it's indisputable that Hull played with greater players for over a decade. The fact that they only won one Cup is pathetic.

His last Hart Trophy was a gimme. He had 1 more point than P. Kane, 3 more points than Eric Staal, and both Bäckström and Ribeiro scored at a good clip on his own team. But he's always been popular with the voters because he's a happy-go-character.

OK, so he had more points than Kane and Staal. Crosby lost to Sedin and Perry and then couldn't stay healthy. Beliveau lost to his own teammates. Ovechkin still has three Harts. That's more than anybody since Lemieux.

Oh, and I hope you're not seriously comparing Backstrom and Ribeiro to Mikita and (young) Esposito. I give you one guess as to which two won multiple Art Rosses.

 

[GMR]

Hull had FOUR teammates as top-tier Hall of Famers. Ovechkin -- NONE. In fact, other than elderly Fedorov, he is likely to have played with zero Hall of Famers at all (unless there is a particularly lean year, and Backstrom somehow makes it).

You can make all the era distinctions you want, but it's indisputable that Hull played with greater players for over a decade. The fact that they only won one Cup is pathetic.


OK, so he had more points than Kane and Staal. Crosby lost to Sedin and Perry and then couldn't stay healthy. Beliveau lost to his own teammates. Ovechkin still has three Harts. That's more than anybody since Lemieux.

Oh, and I hope you're not seriously comparing Backstrom and Ribeiro to Mikita and (young) Esposito. I give you one guess as to which two won multiple Art Rosses.

How many players nowadays play with four top-tier Hall of Famers? Not too many. Also, like it was said above, you don't win multiple Presidents trophies playing with bad teammates. Unless you want to argue that Ovechkin carried those losers all by himself to three or four Presidents trophies.

 

[daver]

Dont agree with some of your other posts in this thread but this is spot on in how i rank Ovi too.

The only thing id change is the word 'possibly' to 'almost certainly'. Just some extra compiling is likely enough to be top goal scorer pretty unanimously

I don't think you can say this. His best goalscoring season is not among the very best all-time and three of the other candidates are so far ahead of him overall offensively that looking at just their goalscoring is a bit of an insult.

Unless you are distinguishing "top" from greatest and/or best.

 

[Sentinel]

How many players nowadays play with four top-tier Hall of Famers? Not too many. Also, like it was said above, you don't win multiple Presidents trophies playing with bad teammates. Unless you want to argue that Ovechkin carried those losers all by himself to three or four Presidents trophies.

Ovechkin had DECENT teammates. Hull had FANTASTIC teammates. The fact that we are comparing their achievements in a team sport speaks volumes about them.

 

[Theokritos]

I already apologized for a mix-up in the semantics dude. Not sure what the hell your problem is.

The problem was that I wasn't sure you were aware of what exactly had caused the confusion. As you can see in post #82, I was already reading between the lines, but then in post #88 you repeated the original claim without correction, hence the renewed confusion. I'm glad it's cleared up now.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The guy has only managed a Hart trophy, another Hart runner up and a Conn Smythe since those seasons. What a shmuck.

It was a wonderful 21-game hot streak he had in 2013 to win a trophy in a 48-game season. It was the highlight of his whole decade, getting outscored by a 37-year-old and having just 28% of voters think he was the most valuable player.

In all seriousness, we don’t necessarily have to treat his 2011-2020 as being equal to his 2006-2010 just because three positive things happened. There is a wide range of things that a player can be between “shmuck” and “Bobby Hull”.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't think you can say this. His best goalscoring season is not among the very best all-time and three of the other candidates are so far ahead of him overall offensively that looking at just their goalscoring is a bit of an insult.

Unless you are distinguishing "top" from greatest and/or best.

Gretzky lead the league in goals five times and seriously lacks in longevity. Same thing for both Brett Hull (3X) and Lemieux (3X). Ovechkin (9X) is a far more consistent goalscorer than all three of them. In fact, he lead the league in goals two times fewer than Gretzky, Hull Jr., and Lemieux COMBINED.

And Ovy's peak season sits nicely among the best of all time.

 

[GMR]

Ovechkin had DECENT teammates. Hull had FANTASTIC teammates. The fact that we are comparing their achievements in a team sport speaks volumes about them.

Pretty much every great player in the original six era had multiple top-tier players on his team. Not just Hull. Howe had them. Orr had them. Beliveau and Harvey had them. It's not like Hull's team was losing in the playoffs to junior league teams every season. Hull's teammates weren't that superior when you look at their competition.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Not sure I really care about any of what you just said. My post was regarding a 34 year-old season, and I am basing the stat/accomplishment based off of: 34-Year Old NHL Players - Regular Season Stats

All I was illustrating is that this was the best goalscoring season (and still one of the best overall point-wise) of a 34 year old season ever in the NHL. And regardless, still one of the best (top 2 or 3 most likely) goalscoring seasons of any player 34 or older. The assist totals are not relevant to that at all.

Oh, so you’re discounting Johnny Bucyk and Teemu Selanne because they were older than 34.

That’s... weird.

 

[Fantomas]

It was a wonderful 21-game hot streak he had in 2013 to win a trophy in a 48-game season. It was the highlight of his whole decade, getting outscored by a 37-year-old and having just 28% of voters think he was the most valuable player.

In all seriousness, we don’t necessarily have to treat his 2011-2020 as being equal to his 2006-2010 just because three positive things happened. There is a wide range of things that a player can be between “shmuck” and “Bobby Hull”.

Interesting that even outside of his peak years, Ovechkin still has to compete against a peerless Bobby Hull of your imagination.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Washington didn't channel all their pucks through Ovi they would have been harder to defend against. Bäckström's no Malkin but he's damn talented and he has used his shot way too little through the years. Bäckström's shot is pretty good which he has showed occasionally (09–10 season and in some playoff series).

Barry Trotz disagrees, but what does he know?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Interesting that even outside of his peak years, Ovechkin still has to compete against a peerless Bobby Hull of your imagination.

Bobby Hull was more or less a fixture in the top-5 scorers for 13 years before leaving for the WHA, where he was MVP twice in his first three years (indicating there wasn’t a substantial drop-off). So yes, I would kind of like to see Ovechkin maintain his 2006-2010 level of play (or something similar) for 10 additional seasons to have the Bobby Hull discussion.

He did not.

It’s not that Bobby Hull is peerless; I would consider Roy, Richard, Beliveau, Shore, Plante, Crosby, Morenz, and Harvey to be his peers. Ovechkin would be more in the low end of that Messier, Jagr, Sawchuk, Bourque, Nighbor, Kelly, Lafleur, and Hasek range.

Those players in that latter group are also not “schmucks”. They’re just not Bobby Hull.

 

[sr edler]

Barry Trotz disagrees, but what does he know?

Capitals Cup team ran a deeper style in those playoffs as they went along, that didn't feed a particular player, hence team success. Kuznetsov ran the puck distributing show and had 12 goals himself.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think you can say this. His best goalscoring season is not among the very best all-time...

Except it absolutely is:

Era Adjusted: Greatest NHL goal-scoring seasons of all-time - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Fantomas]

Bobby Hull was more or less a fixture in the top-5 scorers for 13 years before leaving for the WHA, where he was MVP twice in his first three years (indicating there wasn’t a substantial drop-off). So yes, I would kind of like to see Ovechkin maintain his 2006-2010 level of play (or something similar) for 10 additional seasons to have the Bobby Hull discussion.

Those four (actually five) Ovechkin seasons were better than anything Hull ever did. The fact that you think that Ovechkin needed to stretch that to a full decade is hilarious and not worth engaging with.

So I won't.

 

[Fantomas]

Except it absolutely is:

Era Adjusted: Greatest NHL goal-scoring seasons of all-time - Sportsnet.ca

Notice that post-peak shmuck-mode Ovechkin shows up twice on this list.

 

[JackSlater]

Those four (actually five) Ovechkin seasons were better than anything Hull ever did. The fact that you think that Ovechkin needed to stretch that to a full decade is hilarious and not worth engaging with.

So I won't.

You're really making the claim that Ovechkin's 2007 season was better than Hull's 1966 season?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not sure that you can say OV quite hit Hull's peak which answers one of the main questions to ask in a comparison: Who was simply the better hockey player?

I agree that Ovechkin didn't quite hit Hull's peak. That being said, he wasn't wildly off it either. Early career Ovechkin is pretty far up the ladder.

Ovechkin's argument is going to be more about holding an elite level of production over a stupidly long period. At Ovechkin's age, Hull was several years removed from being the NHL's dominant goal scorer, and he had just moved to the WHA where he would have increasingly uneven performances in an increasingly inferior environment. Of course he was still an elite scorer -- but he had become part of "the pack" rather than the man.

At this same age, Ovechkin just wrapped up his 7th Rocket in 8 years. He had outscored Pastrnak 24-19 since the New Year and was likely robbed by COVID of a clear-cut margin of victory. In any case, the goal titles are now 9 to 7... that's a gap, and the gap stands to grow if Ovechkin somehow maintains this level even longer. The difference in peak is still important, but not as important as it used to be.

 

[Sentinel]

Bobby Hull was more or less a fixture in the top-5 scorers for 13 years before leaving for the WHA, where he was MVP twice in his first three years (indicating there wasn’t a substantial drop-off). So yes, I would kind of like to see Ovechkin maintain his 2006-2010 level of play (or something similar) for 10 additional seasons to have the Bobby Hull discussion.

He did not.

It’s not that Bobby Hull is peerless; I would consider Roy, Richard, Beliveau, Shore, Plante, Crosby, Morenz, and Harvey to be his peers. Ovechkin would be more in the low end of that Messier, Jagr, Sawchuk, Bourque, Nighbor, Kelly, Lafleur, and Hasek range.

Those players in that latter group are also not “schmucks”. They’re just not Bobby Hull.

Ah, the length to which people will go to demonstrate that 2 is greater than 3 and 7 is greater than 9.

 

[filinski77]

Oh, so you’re discounting Johnny Bucyk and Teemu Selanne because they were older than 34.

That’s... weird.

Not discounting them at all dude. Literally only talking about best 34-year old season (goalscoring wise). Hence, I don't give a shit about seasons that are not 34-year old seasons, because I was never talking about that.

 

[bobholly39]

I don't think you can say this. His best goalscoring season is not among the very best all-time and three of the other candidates are so far ahead of him overall offensively that looking at just their goalscoring is a bit of an insult.

Unless you are distinguishing "top" from greatest and/or best.

I was saying "top" as in "greatest", same thing. "Best" is different to me - that's strictly about peak.

For "best" goal-scorer - for me it's Lemieux, or possibly Gretzky (he did lose a step there later on though). Hull and Ovi are probably in there too - but i'd have Lemieux/Gretzky first.And yes - their overall offense probably led to more points but less goals, whereas Ovi has often concentrated more on goals.

So I think with some more compiling/longevity - Ovechkin should pretty unanimously be called the greatest goal-scorer ever. His goal-scoring resume will quite frankly be untouchable compared to others. But for peak - no, he's not #1.

 

[MadLuke]

His best goalscoring season is not among the very best all-time

I feel this is false, that 65 goal season is in the conversation for the very best all time and certainly among the very best

1.	Brett Hull*	78	1990-91
2.	Alex Ovechkin	72	2007-08
3.	Mario Lemieux*	71	1988-89
4.	Cooney Weiland*	70	1929-30
	Phil Esposito*	70	1970-71
6.	Wayne Gretzky*	69	1983-84
7.	Babe Dye*	68	1924-25
	Wayne Gretzky*	68	1981-82
	Steven Stamkos	68	2011-12
10.	Howie Morenz*	67	1927-28
	Dit Clapper*	67	1929-30
	Mario Lemieux*	67	1995-96
13.	Howie Morenz*	65	1929-30
	Gordie Howe*	65	1952-53
	Phil Esposito*	65	1971-72
	Pavel Bure*	65	2000-01
17.	Nels Stewart*	64	1929-30
	Phil Esposito*	64	1973-74
	Pavel Bure*	64	1999-00
20.	Jean Beliveau*	63	1955-56
	Brett Hull*	63	1991-92
22.	Charlie Conacher*	62	1930-31
	Alexander Mogilny	62	1992-93
	Teemu Selanne*	62	1992-93
	Alex Ovechkin	62	2012-13
26.	Brett Hull*	61	1989-90
27.	Bill Cook*	60	1930-31
	Charlie Conacher*	60	1931-32
	Bill Cook*	60	1931-32
	Jaromir Jagr	60	1995-96
Rank	Player	G/A	Season
	Peter Bondra	60	1997-98
	Teemu Selanne*	60	1997-98
	Jarome Iginla	60	2001-02
	Alex Ovechkin	60	2014-15
35.	Joe Malone*	59	1917-18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Sentinel]

Again, what is this nonsense with "no assist Ovechkin"?

RS: 658 G + 553 A
PO: 65 G + 61 A

Looks pretty uniform to me.

 

[daver]

I feel this is false, that 65 goal season is in the conversation for the very best all time and certainly among the very best

1.	Brett Hull*	78	1990-91
2.	Alex Ovechkin	72	2007-08
3.	Mario Lemieux*	71	1988-89
4.	Cooney Weiland*	70	1929-30
	Phil Esposito*	70	1970-71
6.	Wayne Gretzky*	69	1983-84
7.	Babe Dye*	68	1924-25
	Wayne Gretzky*	68	1981-82
	Steven Stamkos	68	2011-12
10.	Howie Morenz*	67	1927-28
	Dit Clapper*	67	1929-30
	Mario Lemieux*	67	1995-96
13.	Howie Morenz*	65	1929-30
	Gordie Howe*	65	1952-53
	Phil Esposito*	65	1971-72
	Pavel Bure*	65	2000-01
17.	Nels Stewart*	64	1929-30
	Phil Esposito*	64	1973-74
	Pavel Bure*	64	1999-00
20.	Jean Beliveau*	63	1955-56
	Brett Hull*	63	1991-92
22.	Charlie Conacher*	62	1930-31
	Alexander Mogilny	62	1992-93
	Teemu Selanne*	62	1992-93
	Alex Ovechkin	62	2012-13
26.	Brett Hull*	61	1989-90
27.	Bill Cook*	60	1930-31
	Charlie Conacher*	60	1931-32
	Bill Cook*	60	1931-32
	Jaromir Jagr	60	1995-96
Rank	Player	G/A	Season
	Peter Bondra	60	1997-98
	Teemu Selanne*	60	1997-98
	Jarome Iginla	60	2001-02
	Alex Ovechkin	60	2014-15
35.	Joe Malone*	59	1917-18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Not in terms of domination vs. his peers. These numbers, not surprisingly, do not pass the eye test given adjusting methods are very faulty.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Regarding the "best at age 34" argument, here's another way to think about it.

All-time goals, ages 30-34:
1. Phil Esposito - 253
2. Alex Ovechkin - 231
3. Marcel Dionne - 227
4. Mike Gartner - 213
5. Jarome Iginla - 192
6. Bobby Hull - 190
(Gretzky is #42 on this list)

Note that this is raw goal scoring. A very cursory glance at league averages will tell you all you need to know.

I don't want to spend a ton of time pulling adjusted figures, but here's that same top-6 with the H-R formula:

Adjusted goals, ages 30-34:
1. Alex Ovechkin - 254
2. Phil Esposito - 227
3. Jarome Iginla - 212
4. Mike Gartner - 185
5. Bobby Hull - 184
6. Marcel Dionne - 177

Now, it would be completely unfair not to point out that all of these players played between 384-410 games apiece... except for Bobby Hull, who played only 291 due to his WHA departure. To provide an apples-to-apples comparison, we can look at Ovechkin and Hull against each other ages 30-33:

Ovechkin - 324 games, 196 goals (adjusted) = .605 agpg
Hull - 291 games, 184 goals (adjusted) = .632 agpg

This keeps underscoring the same thing over and over -- Ovechkin is absolutely on track to finish as the top goal scorer of all time at age 30+. To the extent that Hull has an edge over him in this category, that edge disappears at age 33. If he somehow continues to win Rockets, that edge is going to get BIG in a hurry.