Out of Town Thread Part XXV

[417]

Habs fans are like high school jocks who got turned down by the prom queen and then go talk **** about the guy who got her.

Whose talking ****?

Where in that post am I talking **** about the Leafs? Hell I even say that they're going to get him under contract.

All I said was that signing Tavares was overkill.

What a terrible analogy, poor attempt at humor.

 

[Lshap]

Reading Leafs fans souring on Marner is a thing of beauty. I hope it get even messier, they sit him for the year, the he change his mind on Christmas, beg them for a contract, they settle for 10M and Marner come back and suck and is getting booed every time he touch the puck and then he is traded for Richard Rakell

I remember Shanahan pontificating on how the Leafs young stars would all take hometown discounts to keep the core together. Good times.

 

[Lshap]

By respect for him cause they wanted to trade him and ask for his permission but he prefer to stay despite the rebuild.

And never forget that Pacioretty was never traded because Bergevin wanted to get assets for a rebuild/reset….he was traded cause Bergevin and Pacioretty were at each others throat cause Bergevin acted like an ass and kept blaming Leadership publicly (And as the Captain, Pacioretty took it personally ). Not to mention that he tried to trade him for Muzzin first, not the return we got.

And Galchenyuk wasn't a vet that we traded for younger assets, it was a lateral move (in terms of rebuild or reset) and then again (and it's something Bergevin kept doing over the year)….it never was about getting Domi, it was about getting rid of Galchenyuk…..just like it was about getting rid of Pacioretty.

How do the stories behind the trades change the fact that they were good trades? The reasons behind the Pacioretty and Galchenyuk deals are no different than the reasons behind most trades ever made. We just don't hear other teams' backroom gossip and don't really care, except when it involves the Habs.

 

[Habby4Life]

Going with youth isn't a recipe for success. You keep talking about it like "It's the only way to go" which is not. All team try to do that. It' not something new or different that we are doing.

You see all those kids…..they are not there to improve the team, they are there to replace what we already have and that we are about to lose in the future either because of age or contract. Frankly, i'm not even sure they will be able to replace what we already have, at least let say i'm not sure they'll be better than what we already have.

Just look at this year….we need to replace Shaw with one of these kids.
We'Re not even talking about adding but just replacing.

I said rebuild by going young. There are many ways to do it such as the draft, moving along aging vets, and signing undrafted players.

I didn’t say it’s the only way, I’ve said I think it’s the right way, and there’s a big difference.

I also said it’s about better drafting and development which is the key to long term success. They have done a crap job of doing this in the past which is why they have been an average team for 20 years. I see better commitment and improvement with this in the last few years.

I believe they are now taking this approach with the recent trades & the last few drafts. IMO, they should move some of the vets right now such as Petry, Weber, and even Price. I’d be ok with a few more crap years because I believe it would payoff. Not sure others could handle it.

 

[Kriss E]

I remember Shanahan pontificating on how the Leafs young stars would all take hometown discounts to keep the core together. Good times.

Generation gap. Kids are self-entitled nowadays.

 

[Milhouse40]

How do the stories behind the trades change the fact that they were good trades? The reasons behind the Pacioretty and Galchenyuk deals are no different than the reasons behind most trades ever made. We just don't hear other teams' backroom gossip and don't really care, except when it involves the Habs.

I never said they were bad trades either…..but using those trade as a sign of an organization that made them because they wanted to rebuild is 100% false. The idea behind the trade was getting rid of players. Do you think Rangers traded McDonagh because their GM hated him? No, they did it cause they were really looking to rebuild and get assets back to make that rebuild.

It's not the case of Bergevin….he wanted them out and wanted something in return…..it was never about a rebuild or reset.

 

[CDN24]

I remember Shanahan pontificating on how the Leafs young stars would all take hometown discounts to keep the core together. Good times.

Me thinks those young stars looked at Shannahans contract history and saw how many hometown discounts he gave as a player.

In hindsight Tavares being available to them may have been a bad thing in that they should have pursued a d-man instead. That said after signing Tavares they needed to identify that one of the other 3 had to go. Nylander being the obvious candidate, he even made it easy for them by holding out. he had great trade value at this time last fall. Until his play improves I would argue he has none right now.

Not sure how the Marner thing resolves, I expect they will get him signed but have 50% of their Cap tied up in 4 forwards. Then next season they are left with No Defense again and not much money to find one. he has spent most of his trade assets already to free up space (Marleau deal) or acquire short term solutions on D like Barrie.

Assuming they get Marner done for something around 10.5M, next year they will start the year with a Cap hit of 65.7M or about 16M in space plus whatever cap increase there is. They will have 10F 1D and 1G under contract. Even with a cap increase of 3m , that is 19M to pay at minimum 3F, 6D and a backup goalie. In 2 and 3 years respectively Anderson and Rielly will need substantial raises.

Long-term maybe a big F has to go, maybe it is Marner now. The went from young loaded with talent and potential to Cap hell without even winning a playoff round.

 

[Milhouse40]

I said rebuild by going young. There are many ways to do it such as the draft, moving along aging vets, and signing undrafted players.

I didn’t say it’s the only way, I’ve said I think it’s the right way, and there’s a big difference.

I also said it’s about better drafting and development which is the key to long term success. They have done a crap job of doing this in the past which is why they have been an average team for 20 years. I see better commitment and improvement with this in the last few years.

I believe they are now taking this approach with the recent trades & the last few drafts. IMO, they should move some of the vets right now such as Petry, Weber, and even Price. I’d be ok with a few more crap years because I believe it would payoff. Not sure others could handle it.

Not with that GM…..i couldn't handle it.

Most prospect under that regime were used to fix holes that this GM created and it never was about the prospect first.
Mete is a good example of that….the fact that we think about our prospect to fix the hole created by the trade Shaw is another.

 

[DXStriker]

I love this and maybe something wrong with me lololol

Watching Toronto Fans and especially Toronto media tear into Marner saying he's selfish and not worth above 10 Mil when 6 months ago they are saying he is the greatest thing ever created and better than everyone else lolol

I want to see everyone turn on him even more

 

[Lshap]

I never said they were bad trades either…..but using those trade as a sign of an organization that made them because they wanted to rebuild is 100% false. The idea behind the trade was getting rid of players. Do you think Rangers traded McDonagh because their GM hated him? No, they did it cause they were really looking to rebuild and get assets back to make that rebuild.

It's not the case of Bergevin….he wanted them out and wanted something in return…..it was never about a rebuild or reset.

Yeah, I agree it's not an actual rebuild, but at least the team's gotten younger. Bergevin hasn't added any older players to the core, even if you include the failed pitch to Gardiner. Pacioretty in particular could've returned a higher-end roster player to help the team immediately, but instead the main piece was a 19-year-old prospect along with Tatar. That was a deliberate choice to prioritize tomorrow over today.

That said, "getting younger" is a general concept, not a winning plan by itself. Unless Bergevin acquires top talent or top picks, this semi-youth movement will go nowhere.

 

[Miller Time]

I never said they were bad trades either…..but using those trade as a sign of an organization that made them because they wanted to rebuild is 100% false. The idea behind the trade was getting rid of players. Do you think Rangers traded McDonagh because their GM hated him? No, they did it cause they were really looking to rebuild and get assets back to make that rebuild.

It's not the case of Bergevin….he wanted them out and wanted something in return…..it was never about a rebuild or reset.

Exactly...

Patches - Tatar : 2yrs younger

Galch - Domi : 1 yr younger

PK - Weber : 4yrs older

Sergachev - Drouin : 3yrs older

In trading 4 of his top assets the past few years, no case could be made that there was a "rebuilding" focus...

He alienates & ships out players his ego clashes with & given the reactionary approach, the moves have no alignment to any kind of plan or direction.

 

[Miller Time]

Puljujarvi lighting up ( the champions league.... Kid looking like he has enough hockey sense to be a ppg player over there (small sample size of course & weaker comp), with our prospect pool, picks & massive hole at RW, exactly the kind of target MB should be all over...

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Lshap]

Me thinks those young stars looked at Shannahans contract history and saw how many hometown discounts he gave as a player.

In hindsight Tavares being available to them may have been a bad thing in that they should have pursued a d-man instead. That said after signing Tavares they needed to identify that one of the other 3 had to go. Nylander being the obvious candidate, he even made it easy for them by holding out. he had great trade value at this time last fall. Until his play improves I would argue he has none right now.

Not sure how the Marner thing resolves, I expect they will get him signed but have 50% of their Cap tied up in 4 forwards. Then next season they are left with No Defense again and not much money to find one. he has spent most of his trade assets already to free up space (Marleau deal) or acquire short term solutions on D like Barrie.

Assuming they get Marner done for something around 10.5M, next year they will start the year with a Cap hit of 65.7M or about 16M in space plus whatever cap increase there is. They will have 10F 1D and 1G under contract. Even with a cap increase of 3m , that is 19M to pay at minimum 3F, 6D and a backup goalie. In 2 and 3 years respectively Anderson and Rielly will need substantial raises.

Long-term maybe a big F has to go, maybe it is Marner now. The went from young loaded with talent and potential to Cap hell without even winning a playoff round.

That's the problem with having a morsel of success in a market like Toronto -- everything is ratcheted up tenfold. Fans see a team with great young stars and want a contender NOW, which means they've gotta be signed NOW. Which means Dubas is flailing around like a bad juggler who keeps having new balls thrown at him. I sympathize with the guy. Montreal's market is at least as nuts. Still, I would love nothing more than to see the arrogant Leaf-centric media have their dreams shattered. Screw 'em. A team named after foliage? Really?

 

[Runner77]

What's bothering me the most is that if this is a rebuild, it's done poorly.
If it's a reset, it's equally done poorly.

The fact that we Don't know which one it is AND that we're trying to make the PO is a really a prove of a team without no clear direction.

Molson has the same quandary with its proposed marijuana-infused beer: is it a beer or a soft drug?

The same dichotomies persist in other aspects of the org.

Is it a reset or is the team vying for the playoffs?

Are the anthem singers models who can’t sing or real singers who are eyesores?

Is Geoff doing more condo work or more Habs work?

Are the hotdogs better or is it only their marketing that’s better?

Does Bergevin speak a worse French or a worse English?

 

[Adam Michaels]

Official:

 

[CDN24]

That's the problem with having a morsel of success in a market like Toronto -- everything is ratcheted up tenfold. Fans see a team with great young stars and want a contender NOW, which means they've gotta be signed NOW. Which means Dubas is flailing around like a bad juggler who keeps having new balls thrown at him. I sympathize with the guy. Montreal's market is at least as nuts. Still, I would love nothing more than to see the arrogant Leaf-centric media have their dreams shattered. Screw 'em. A team named after foliage? Really?

Foliage that shows so much promise in the summer and puts on a great show in October only to be well on its way becoming mud in December. A name better suited to a baseball team maybe?

Agree totally, The biggest difference between the to markets is the media. IMO the Mtl media are not fanboys like that in Leaf land. Here they are more critical (to a fault). In Leaf land they start out out as fans full of hopes and dreams each year only to have their dreams dashed again. Dubas always calm quiet and controlled, wonder if he will lose it and go full on Torts in public at some point.

 

[Wats]

Whose talking ****?

Where in that post am I talking **** about the Leafs? Hell I even say that they're going to get him under contract.

All I said was that signing Tavares was overkill.

What a terrible analogy, poor attempt at humor.

Highly doubt getting Tavares is what made Nylander/Marner/Matthews suddenly want to be paid a lot. Similar to how Point/Rantanen/Laine/etc aren't siting out because someone on their own team was signed as UFA for big money.

As long as he plays well, signing Tavares will always be a great move IMO. Matthews/Tavares as the #1/#2 gives them ton of flexibility to cheap out on their wings when cap gets bad.

I think not trading Nylander while his value was highest to fill roster holes was their mistake. If Drouin got Sergachev, I'm sure Nylander could have gotten someone better.

 

[Runner77]

Habs fans are like high school jocks who got turned down by the prom queen and then go talk **** about the guy who got her.

A few fans, seems to me that most of us don’t really care.

The interesting part for me are the management pitfalls that led to the current situation and what lessons other orgs. can learn so as not to end up in a similar quagmire.

 

[ngc_5128]

Generation gap. Kids are self-entitled nowadays.

LOL...that's what every generation says about the one that comes after them. It's more that they know better than to think that the parent corporation has their best interests at heart. MLSE, like every other org that pays salaries, is only interested in paying the minimum required to retain services.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yeah, I agree it's not an actual rebuild, but at least the team's gotten younger. Bergevin hasn't added any older players to the core, even if you include the failed pitch to Gardiner. Pacioretty in particular could've returned a higher-end roster player to help the team immediately, but instead the main piece was a 19-year-old prospect along with Tatar. That was a deliberate choice to prioritize tomorrow over today.

That said, "getting younger" is a general concept, not a winning plan by itself. Unless Bergevin acquires top talent or top picks, this semi-youth movement will go nowhere.

deliberate ??

do you consider Pacioretty refusing to go to L.A. a good choice by -> Bergevin or something ??

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Puljujarvi lighting up ( the champions league.... Kid looking like he has enough hockey sense to be a ppg player over there (small sample size of course & weaker comp), with our prospect pool, picks & massive hole at RW, exactly the kind of target MB should be all over...

They want a 1st round pick for him and the guy looked like a bust in the NHL...

Oilers can keep him.

 

[Lshap]

deliberate ??

do you consider Pacioretty refusing to go to L.A. a good choice by -> Bergevin or something ??

There were 29 other teams Pacioretty could've gone to and 29 other GMs Bergevin could've made a deal with. Suzuki wasn't a throw-in -- he was a highly ranked prospect and an obvious priority for Bergevin. Remove him from the deal and we could've gotten a better roster player than Tatar.

 

[ECWHSWI]

There were 29 other teams Pacioretty could've gone to and 29 other GMs Bergevin could've made a deal with. Suzuki wasn't a throw-in -- he was a highly ranked prospect and an obvious priority for Bergevin. Remove him from the deal and we could've gotten a better roster player than Tatar.

except, Bergevin wanted to trade Pacioretty to L.A., not Vegas. it's -> Pacioretty <- who said NO.

is it a good trade ? sure, Tatar ended up being decent and Habs got a pick and prospect, but lets not talk like the amazing Bergevin planned it all along or something.

 

[waffledave]

Morrissey is a great player but wow