Out of Town Thread - New Year's Edition!

[WeThreeKings]

Turns out his usage as a teenager didn't ruin him at all.

Might not have ruined him, but it's definitely possible it has cost him part of his ceiling.

I didn't have any issues with his 18 year old season, but his handling at the end and beyond wasn't exactly great.

 

[1909]

Might not have ruined him, but it's definitely possible it has cost him part of his ceiling.

I didn't have any issues with his 18 year old season, but his handling at the end and beyond wasn't exactly great.

Julien was sheltering him quite well. Ducharme mishandled him badly. But the kid (and his father) must assume 50% of the blame. KK doesn't miss MTL medias and rabid fans either.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't know. I mean I'm not outraged but I do think it's unprofessional. Calling him a fool and a weakling could be replaced by showing his ineffectiveness.

It just screams someone who's got a personal gripe with Hextall over a hockey analyst.

Fair enough. As I said, I don’t know the specifics well enough to say one way or another.

I detested the way Therrien ran the team though, esp how he treated people. I can see how it can be tough not to rake someone over the coals when they deserve it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Turns out his usage as a teenager didn't ruin him at all.

Ruin? No. Stunt? Yes.

In this case though, I don’t think it’s so much that he was used early (he had a good rookie year) but it was the yo-yo’ing that followed. Horrible to watch how we ‘developed’ him.

 

[Rapala]

Ruin? No. Stunt? Yes.

In this case though, I don’t think it’s so much that he was used early (he had a good rookie year) but it was the yo-yo’ing that followed. Horrible to watch how we ‘developed’ him.

The wrong player in the wrong chair at the wrong time.

 

[417]

Ruin? No. Stunt? Yes.

In this case though, I don’t think it’s so much that he was used early (he had a good rookie year) but it was the yo-yo’ing that followed. Horrible to watch how we ‘developed’ him.

Stunt in what sense though? In the sense that if he was showing what he’s showing now, and it was his 2nd NHL season instead of his 5th?

Maybe the perception of him would be different…

 

[Mrb1p]

Agreed…I don’t see #1C ceiling but an all-around 2C is what he’s trending towards.

We all saw low-end top C when he was drafted, now we all see 2C, I wonder why.

Turns out his usage as a teenager didn't ruin him at all.

It didn't ruin him, but it did chew away at the ceiling.

You mean starting off as an 18 year old and not dominating off the rip, doesn’t mean your whole career is doomed?

Nobody ever argued that, stop being asinine. He is a good proof that rushing player does limit their development though, just like Dach. Why do you think these two uber-talented players, that went toe-to-toe with the likes of Jack Hughes, Raymond, Lafreniere and Cole Caufield in their D-1 and D years somehow are barely scratching second line duties ?

Its development. You can argue the wait and see like you always do, and it's the easy way out, what will happen will happen, but thats not really how things are, and Im sure you know it deep down.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Stunt in what sense though? In the sense that if he was showing what he’s showing now, and it was his 2nd NHL season instead of his 5th?

Maybe the perception of him would be different…

We’ll never know…

 

[JianYang]

To be honest that seems unprofessional and unnecessarily personal.

It's what I'd expect to see on HF not from a paywalled hockey journalist.

It also runs contradictory to what was being said about hextall in Philly.

Philly media was grilling him to be a toxic micromanager, while this guy is saying he wasn't managing anything at all.

Someone has got it wrong.

 

[417]

We all saw low-end top C when he was drafted, now we all see 2C, I wonder why.

Not sure I understand the statement or question here.

It didn't ruin him, but it did chew away at the ceiling.

You just finished writing that we all saw his ceiling as low end top C and now we all see 2C.

Sounds roughly the same to me.

Nobody ever argued that, stop being asinine. He is a good proof that rushing player does limit their development though, just like Dach. Why do you think these two uber-talented players, that went toe-to-toe with the likes of Jack Hughes, Raymond, Lafreniere and Cole Caufield in their D-1 and D years somehow are barely scratching second line duties ?

I literally argued this with a specific poster…I’m just waiting a bit longer before I bump those threads and produce receipts.

Its development. You can argue the wait and see like you always do, and it's the easy way out, what will happen will happen, but thats not really how things are, and Im sure you know it deep down.

It’s the easy way out to argue that we should be patient and not label 18-19 year old kids?

Ok then lol

I’d argue it’s the easy way out to take an 18 year old kid, whine about how he’s not dominating the NHL and call his career then and there.

I personally try not to write checks my ass can’t cash..

But that’s me

 

[417]

We’ll never know…

We might never know but we should remember these situations/lessons when they come back around again..

Say I don’t know, a recently drafted 1st overall pick…but I know that’s hard to ask (not referring to you here)

 

[ReHabs]

I think appealing to time is a non-argument. What we're doing here is discussing about optimization and gaining edges in development, production, performance, results etc.

Simply saying "they're young, the book isn't written yet" doesn't actually invest in anything. Are you pro or opposed to decision X made by the team? That's what sports talk really is. We discuss the games and the decisions made between the games.

@417

 

[417]

I think appealing to time is a non-argument. What we're doing here is discussing about optimization and gaining edges in development, production, performance, results etc.

Simply saying "they're young, the book isn't written yet" doesn't actually invest in anything. Are you pro or opposed to decision X made by the team? That's what sports talk really is. We discuss the games and the decisions made between the games.

@417

Man some folks are feeling triggered apparently lol.

I got no issues with critiquing a player’s game, that’s never been the issue.

I also think it’s reasonable to not put too much focus on the now, prospects after all, by nature, are about PROJECTING….

If we take the cases of Kotkaniemi or Slafkovsky…the projectability was/is obvious, but when one simply and exclusively focuses on the now and ignores context, well you get discussions like we’re having now.

When you’re talking about investing in something…investments aren’t always about immediate dividends, in fact they’re almost always about future dividends.

Are we as Habs fans or more importantly, is the team, willing to invest in players development when they’re 18-19, in order to reap the rewards that “should” come when those players are 23-24?

Can we start to understand that struggling at 18-19-20 is actually typical for most players and it doesn’t have to mean that they won’t ever find their games?

 

[WG]

Did we ever get anything like this written by anyone about Bergevin?

There is a guy at the Gazette who made shitting on Bergevin his stock in trade, the recurring article was called What the Puck and he was after MB for years. Don't know if I saw that guy's post mortem after Bergevin was axed, though.

 

[sandviper]

Stunt in what sense though? In the sense that if he was showing what he’s showing now, and it was his 2nd NHL season instead of his 5th?

Maybe the perception of him would be different…

One thing to keep in mind is he had a couple significant injuries and shortened seasons early in his career.

 

[LaP]

Turns out his usage as a teenager didn't ruin him at all.

It never does. A lack of patience do.

 

[Miller Time]

Barrett Hayton (#5 pick in 2018) is on a similar trajectory. His 22-23 numbers are almost identical to KK's.

It takes time for these guys. Many posters here were dumping on Dach when we acquired him last year as if he was washed up at 21.

Is what it is around here... bad takes abound, especially about young players/prospects. Heck, some are already dumping on & writing off Slaf... & let's face it, unless he puts up 60+ points next year, there will be even more.

 

[Miller Time]

Stunt in what sense though? In the sense that if he was showing what he’s showing now, and it was his 2nd NHL season instead of his 5th?

Maybe the perception of him would be different…

The way MB & co. managed the relationship certainly appears to have been quite poor. If/how much that had a negative impact on his trajectory & ultimately his ceiling is impossible to assess definitively. Sometimes adversity can be an accelerant, sometimes an inhibitor.

He seems to have found himself in an environment that is supportive & working well for him... And he's making clear progress. Ceiling remains quite high.

Just a shame we didn't create that kind of environment for young players, but at least the current group is...so much easier to feel optimistic about the future of our talented prospect group with competent leadership running the show!

 

[ReHabs]

Is what it is around here... bad takes abound, especially about young players/prospects. Heck, some are already dumping on & writing off Slaf... & let's face it, unless he puts up 60+ points next year, there will be even more.

Expecting 60pts from him next year is not fair to Slaf or anybody, really.

He produced at a 20pt pace, double that is 40pts. Triple is 60pts.

If his PPG goes up and his pts/60 goes up (though it’s a bad stat) and his SoG goes up and so on that’s all improvement and all good. At this juncture we just need to see him belong in a NHL team’s middle6. That means producing more than he did this year, duh, but also getting hit less and implicating himself in the play a lot more. He was behind the play too often, he shouldn’t be next year.

He’s not a write-off, he’s a project.

Man some folks are feeling triggered apparently lol.

I got no issues with critiquing a player’s game, that’s never been the issue.

I also think it’s reasonable to not put too much focus on the now, prospects after all, by nature, are about PROJECTING….

If we take the cases of Kotkaniemi or Slafkovsky…the projectability was/is obvious, but when one simply and exclusively focuses on the now and ignores context, well you get discussions like we’re having now.

When you’re talking about investing in something…investments aren’t always about immediate dividends, in fact they’re almost always about future dividends.

Are we as Habs fans or more importantly, is the team, willing to invest in players development when they’re 18-19, in order to reap the rewards that “should” come when those players are 23-24?

Can we start to understand that struggling at 18-19-20 is actually typical for most players and it doesn’t have to mean that they won’t ever find their games?

Nobody is triggered, relax.

The discussion is about our perceptions of decisions made at this moment. Constantly saying that the future will look different is simply a not worthwhile contribution.

 

[JianYang]

Expecting 60pts from him next year is not fair to Slaf or anybody, really.

He produced at a 20pt pace, double that is 40pts. Triple is 60pts.

If his PPG goes up and his pts/60 goes up (though it’s a bad stat) and his SoG goes up and so on that’s all improvement and all good. At this juncture we just need to see him belong in a NHL team’s middle6. That means producing more than he did this year, duh, but also getting hit less and implicating himself in the play a lot more. He was behind the play too often, he shouldn’t be next year.

He’s not a write-off, he’s a project.


Nobody is triggered, relax.

The discussion is about our perceptions of decisions made at this moment. Constantly saying that the future will look different is simply a not worthwhile contribution.

I was reading some posts on farrell after his first game and all I could is smile and shake my head.

It may not be a bold or hot take, but this board has a habit of not seeing the forest from the trees, and as long as that keeps happening, its always worthwhile to put things in perspective.

If I want constant hot takes with little value which I don't) I'll listen to the talking heads on ESPN like skip Bayless or steves a smith

 

[Frank Drebin]

Is what it is around here... bad takes abound, especially about young players/prospects. Heck, some are already dumping on & writing off Slaf... & let's face it, unless he puts up 60+ points next year, there will be even more.

Isn't blaming management/usage for a young player struggling (ruining him) equally as bad of a take and showing an equal lack of foresight as those posters writing the player off though? Aren't those posters also expecting immediate gratification on the pick (top 6 player with pp time), just in different ways?

It seems like it's impossible to accept that a young player will be sub par in usage and or statistics during his developmental years for both sides.

The best course of action is to shut up and just wait.

 

[Miller Time]

Isn't blaming management/usage for a young player struggling (ruining him) equally as bad of a take and showing an equal lack of foresight as those posters writing the player off though? Aren't those posters also expecting immediate gratification on the pick (top 6 player with pp time), just in different ways?

It seems like it's impossible to accept that a young player will be sub par in usage and or statistics during his developmental years for both sides.

The best course of action is to shut up and just wait.

A message board is a place to discuss the team operations, players, results et. I don't know that "shut up" fits the environment.

No one variable is causal when it comes to a players career trajectory aside from injury ending or significantly limiting it. But certainly some environments are better than others.

I think there are several definable, deliberate and, thus far, demonstrably successful actions by the current leadership group that suggests a positive development & performance environment and that run in stark contrast to the previous management approach.

 

[Team_Spirit]

 

[LV426]

Today's CGI is amazing how they colorized the video of Leafs winning the cup.

 

[Frank Drebin]

A message board is a place to discuss the team operations, players, results et. I don't know that "shut up" fits the environment.

No one variable is causal when it comes to a players career trajectory aside from injury ending or significantly limiting it. But certainly some environments are better than others.

I think there are several definable, deliberate and, thus far, demonstrably successful actions by the current leadership group that suggests a positive development & performance environment and that run in stark contrast to the previous management approach.

"Shut up" was of course meant figuratively. Maybe I should have said, relax and wait. Almost 5 years after he was drafted kotkaniemi is finally looking like a first round pick.

I see this current regime making the same "mistakes" with slaf as they did with KK. Remember during kks promising rookie season he got dumped on his head by zadorov? Slaf took a couple bad hits this season yeah? Turns out it didn't damage kotkaniemi permanently, and it won't damage slaf permanently either. Neither did benching KK in the playoffs, or playing him 11 minutes a night as recently as last season in Carolina.

All this chat about rushing young players, linemates, ice time and usage when they're still developing makes my head spin. How they develop as players had very little to do with those variables and almost everything to do with just being able to wait while a player grows physically and mentally into his potential.