Our Defensive Shortcomings...

[Gallagbi]

IMO it's a successful system. The shots are mostly perimeter shots.

Since the system isn't designed to prevent shots outright, but to limit them to lower percentile scoring positions, and recover pucks that enter the middle of the zone, I would say there is a high degree of success of the system.

FFS we're 3rd in the division and 5th in the conference. Is that really a position that a team with a flawed system would be in??

The simple answer is yes, that's a position you can be in with a flawed system.

There's a lot to dislike about the system with the limited options it creates and pressure it puts on the puck carried/retriever.

You're right that it inflates shot totals and limits legitimate scoring chances, but it has a high chance of breaking down, which we've seen this year.

 

[Devourers]

Habs fan coming in peace. As an outsider I think it's the defense core. The leafs always have many good defenseman, but they just don't seem to have the chemistry on d other teams haves. I'm not a Carlyle fan but there is a system, it's clear to me certain players aren't playing their best defensively or don't have the right chemistry with their partners.

No d-man on Toronto strikes me as a defensive rock either, on Montreal I find we don't have a great all around rock either. Closest thing would be Gorges but he's not very physical and has zero offense. I'm talking about a guy who will put up average offense while being a rock defensively. Hamrlik in his prime maybe would be a good example. Neither team has that, we have Subban and Phaneuf. These guys are expected to put up points while shutdown guys do the rest, but end up having to do both.

If you look at Chicago this year, it isn't Keith and Seabrook killing penalties, it's Oduya and Hjmarlsson. What both Montreal and Toronto need is a pairing like that.

 

[Purity*]

Habs fan coming in peace. As an outsider I think it's the defense core. The leafs always have many good defenseman, but they just don't seem to have the chemistry on d other teams haves. I'm not a Carlyle fan but there is a system, it's clear to me certain players aren't playing their best defensively or don't have the right chemistry with their partners.

No d-man on Toronto strikes me as a defensive rock either, on Montreal I find we don't have a great all around rock either. Closest thing would be Gorges but he's not very physical and has zero offense. I'm talking about a guy who will put up average offense while being a rock defensively. Hamrlik in his prime maybe would be a good example. Neither team has that, we have Subban and Phaneuf. These guys are expected to put up points while shutdown guys do the rest, but end up having to do both.

If you look at Chicago this year, it isn't Keith and Seabrook killing penalties, it's Oduya and Hjmarlsson. What both Montreal and Toronto need is a pairing like that.

Good post.

On our D-core, Gleason, Phaneuf and Gunnar are usually lined up with the shut-down assignments, and they can actually perform them quite well. Here's where the problem comes in, our forwards are putrid in the defensive zone, and our other D-man like Franson, Rielly and Gardiner (Ranger too but he hasn't been a full-timer) are prone to some pretty bad mistakes. Combine the 2 along with the fact that we never play the boards or cover the points, and you got yourself a horrible defensive team, which is what we are. The difference between our teams is your D-core actually gets it done most nights (Price has been spectacular this year) while your offense struggles. We are opposite, our offense can usually get it done but our defense is god-awful (we have also gotten exceptional tending from Berny). It's kind of funny actually

 

[King85Kong]

Its Both but If I had to choose it would be the system. We have some talented D-men but when their forced to collapse everytime the puck enters our zone it takes away their speciality.

Anyone seen Gardiner from the Bruins playoff series? He's nothing like that this year. I wouldn't say its because he forgot how to skate and pinch, more so Randy has made him adapt to a defensive approach which hasn't gone his way at all. He's better at keeping offensive zone pressure while skating the puck out instead collapsing and fighting bodies in the crease.

Post of the year.

 

[PuckMagi]

Too many 1 dimensal forwards

i think this is a big part of the problem.

our top two lines tend to score nice goals off the rush... but when they give the puck up, the other team is able exit the zone with control and get it into our zone and put us right back on the defensive.

a lot of teams we play against seem to get us trapped in our own zone for a while, and then when we get the puck, all we can do is clear it and hope to get a change in before their next attack. we've gotta start doing that because playing defense for 50 minutes and playing 10 minutes of offense isn't really going to work in the long run, espeically in a playoff series.

i think if we had a second or third line that could keep the puck in the offensive zone for a full shift, that would help us a lot... because then the other team is just going to clear it out of the zone and maybe shoot it back into our zone... at which point our top line can come out and get a nice rush chance and maybe catch a few tired defenders off guard who weren't able to make a change.

 

[Stephen]

I think we have too many one dimensional defenseman in a way. Or at least not enough well rounded distribution of defensive awareness puck moving ability and gritty game. Where's our version of Dennis Seidenberg?

 

[weems]

I think we have too many one dimensional defenseman in a way. Or at least not enough well rounded distribution of defensive awareness puck moving ability and gritty game. Where's our version of Dennis Seidenberg?

Well if you listened to some on this board it'd be Gunnarson.
In reality he offers you zilch offensively, isnt as good defensively as many around say and isnt overly physical. Lately he's also been losing ALOT of foot races to loose pucks in the defensive zone. He's a alright player but nowhere near as good as many would have you believe....imo!

The blueline definitely has plenty of issues but I think it's being made to look worse by how soft and defensively challenged the forward group is.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Habs fan coming in peace. As an outsider I think it's the defense core. The leafs always have many good defenseman, but they just don't seem to have the chemistry on d other teams haves. I'm not a Carlyle fan but there is a system, it's clear to me certain players aren't playing their best defensively or don't have the right chemistry with their partners.

No d-man on Toronto strikes me as a defensive rock either, on Montreal I find we don't have a great all around rock either. Closest thing would be Gorges but he's not very physical and has zero offense. I'm talking about a guy who will put up average offense while being a rock defensively. Hamrlik in his prime maybe would be a good example. Neither team has that, we have Subban and Phaneuf. These guys are expected to put up points while shutdown guys do the rest, but end up having to do both.

If you look at Chicago this year, it isn't Keith and Seabrook killing penalties, it's Oduya and Hjmarlsson. What both Montreal and Toronto need is a pairing like that.

We're sort of trying to field a Piets - J-Bo line top pairing. It's a two-way one, but we don't really have someone on it who can move the puck as well as Piets. Phaneuf is playing off side and isn't exactly a stellar PMD either. Gunnarsson isn't, but is quite solid defensively.

Our need is a PMD that can control the tempo of the game and bring the puck in the offensive zone efficiently. Someone like Gardiner, who did well when offensively utilised against Boston would be appropriate. Rielly, who is more willing to play the body, would be most ideal, though.

 

[Badger Mayhew*]

Leafs are 5th last in goals against.

Teams that are that bad defensively being among the bottom 5 make the playoffs once every 100 years or so.

Leafs season is hanging on being the top SO team with 9 wins and strong goaltending mostly from Bernier with a top 5 sv%.

A system that requires you to outscore your own mistakes is not one without flaws. IMO .. One that needs SO success to qualify for the playoffs is not going to have similar success in them when that circus time event is no longer present to decide games.

Calgary made the playoffs in 2008/2009 with 3.00 GA/G...

Detroit made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G...

Montreal made it to the conference finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G....

Do I really need to continue

 

[-DeMo-]

Calgary made the playoffs in 2008/2009 with 3.00 GA/G...

Detroit made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G...

Montreal made it to the conference finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G....

Do I really need to continue

were any of those teams in the bottom 5 in defense? were any of those teams GAA higher then GF?

 

[BIitz]

Both. The system puts the players in a position they can't succeed. The system is the reason we have long shifts, and we have long shifts because people can't make passes.

We have a terrible breakout. Kessel is non existent on the half wall and puts that line in trouble. Kulemin can't take or give a pass so he hinders either the third or second line. Lupul is non existent defensively, Naz is still too young to be relied upon to get the puck out on his own. The third line can't maintain any form of offensive pressure.

The players are a cause of above. No system is going to make Kessel or Lupul good on the half way. Lupul's clueless and kessel doesn't want to get hit. Only 2 of our defenders have the ability to skate themselves out of trouble, and both find a way to skate themselves back into trouble.

The system is a reason we are in a terrible position for breakouts. For a team that dumps and chases they have to be the worst chasers. Often times they're slow to the man, caugh Kessel, or they just change and let fresh legs defend. The system puts extremely low value on puck possession. The system values checking. Checking means you don't have the puck.

Even the greatest defenses get chipped when they're constantly relied upon.

 

[Holymakinaw]

were any of those teams in the bottom 5 in defense? were any of those teams GAA higher then GF?

We are, and we're making the playoffs. So what is your point?

Sure we have flaws, but once we're in....anything can happen.

The pessimists believe we will immediately fall apart come playoff time, as we had 9 shootout wins. But those were TIES that we got gimmick points in, and in the post-season, we'd just keep playing until someone wins the game. Whose to say who would win those games in that scenario? It's being assumed that we would lose all 9 of those, but that's silly.

Each playoff round is best of 7 series. How many shootout wins we got in the regular season is instantly irrelevant once that starts. Same with GA, and GAA being higher than GF in reg. season.

 

[Badger Mayhew*]

were any of those teams in the bottom 5 in defense? were any of those teams GAA higher then GF?

-A "ranking" system is a worse tool for making comparisons than comparing the actual stat

-Mess wasn't arguing GAA vs. GF. He was arguing that Bad GAA = Bad Team

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
Calgary made the playoffs in 2008/2009 with 3.00 GA/G...

Detroit made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G...

Montreal made it to the conference finals in 2008/2009 with 2.93 GA/G....

Do I really need to continue

were any of those teams in the bottom 5 in defense? were any of those teams GAA higher then GF?

Detroit 3.52 GF/G (ranked 1st)
Calgary 3.06 GF/G (ranked 8th)
Montreal 2.95 GF/G (ranked 13th)

And their ranking compared for GA/G compared to the rest of the league, Calgary ranked 23rd, Montreal ranked 21st and Detroit ranked 20th.

Edit: This season is not over yet but scoring have steadily gone down since the lock out one should not compare GA-GF/G between seasons without putting in perspective how it ranks among the other teams.

 

[Mess]

Detroit 3.52 GF/G (ranked 1st)
Calgary 3.06 GF/G (ranked 8th)
Montreal 2.95 GF/G (ranked 13th)

And their ranking compared for GA/G compared to the rest of the league, Calgary ranked 23rd, Montreal ranked 21st and Detroit ranked 20th.

Edit: This season is not over yet but scoring have steadily gone down since the lock out one should not compare GA-GF/G between seasons without putting in perspective how it ranks among the other teams.

I agree comparative to the rest of the teams is important.

Detroit was a +51 goal differential (3rd best in the NHL) and wasn't even in the bottom 10 teams in 2008-09 in goals against. So not a very good comparable to use for our Leafs this year. When your scoring +50 goals more then you giving up you have a lot of room for error..

Our Leafs are a -8 on the season goal differential and giving up more then they score and that also places them in the bottom 5 in goals against comparatively in 2013-14.

If you don't give context comparatively among teams on per season basis then the results could vary.. Case in point our Leafs in 2008-09 (Burke inherited team) scored 250 goals for while being 30th in goals against.. However our 2013-14 Leafs have 203 goals after 69 games (= 241 GF in 82 games pace).. So 5 years later our Leafs after the rebuild are on pace for less goals for then the one with Blake, Pony, Antropov and Stajan etc in 2008/09.

 

[Holymakinaw]

If you don't give context comparatively among teams on per season basis then the results could vary.. Case in point our Leafs in 2008-09 (Burke inherited team) scored 250 goals for while being 30th in goals against.. However our 2013-14 Leafs have 203 goals after 69 games (= 241 GF in 82 games pace).. So 5 years later our Leafs after the rebuild are on pace for less goals for then the one with Blake, Pony, Antropov and Stajan etc in 2008/09.

Uh.......scoring is down ACROSS the league, from 2008/09 to 2013/14. In 2008/09, the entire league scored 7006 goals. This season, all the teams are on pace to score approx. 6435 goals.

Context indeed.

 

[Gallagbi]

I agree comparative to the rest of the teams is important.

Detroit was a +51 goal differential (3rd best in the NHL) and wasn't even in the bottom 10 teams in 2008-09 in goals against. So not a very good comparable to use for our Leafs this year. When your scoring +50 goals more then you giving up you have a lot of room for error..

Our Leafs are a -8 on the season goal differential and giving up more then they score and that also places them in the bottom 5 in goals against comparatively in 2013-14.

If you don't give context comparatively among teams on per season basis then the results could vary.. Case in point our Leafs in 2008-09 (Burke inherited team) scored 250 goals for while being 30th in goals against.. However our 2013-14 Leafs have 203 goals after 69 games (= 241 GF in 82 games pace).. So 5 years later our Leafs after the rebuild are on pace for less goals for then the one with Blake, Pony, Antropov and Stajan etc in 2008/09.

So now it's about +/- not GA?

 

[Mess]

Uh.......scoring is down ACROSS the league, from 2008/09 to 2013/14. In 2008/09, the entire league scored 7006 goals. This season, all the teams are on pace to score approx. 6435 goals.

Context indeed.

That is exactly my point..

Scoring was up in 2008-09 then today, so a 3.0 goals against average in 2008-09 is different than a +3.0 GAA in 2013-14.

So the examples given of Montreal and Detroit being similar in goals against average to our Leafs today is influenced by a much higher scoring league back them.

My question was name the last team in a season that was in the bottom 5 in goals against (like our Leafs currently are) and made the playoffs?

 

[cynicism]

So now it's about +/- not GA?

Or maybe it's just a combination of things, and not one specific thing? Or is that too hard a concept to grasp?

 

[Holymakinaw]

That is exactly my point..

Scoring was up in 2008-09 then today, so a 3.0 goals against average in 2008-09 is different than a +3.0 GAA in 2013-14.

So the examples given of Montreal and Detroit being similar in goals against average to our Leafs today is influenced by a much higher scoring league back them.

My question was name the last team in a season that was in the bottom 5 in goals against (like our Leafs currently are) and made the playoffs?

Who knows? And who cares?

We're about to be the next one.

That's how it is this year.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Uh.......scoring is down ACROSS the league, from 2008/09 to 2013/14. In 2008/09, the entire league scored 7006 goals. This season, all the teams are on pace to score approx. 6435 goals.

Context indeed.

In 08/09 we were ranked 30th in GA/G and 10th in GF/G.
So far in 13/14 we are ranked 26th in GA/G and 12th in GF/G.

In 08/09 our combined GF/GA ranked us 20th and today we are ranked 19th. But doing so can be a bit misleading but it at least give an indication that we have neither regressed or improved. A 1 spot change is not a lot.

Last season we actually ranked pretty well. 17th GA/G and 6th GF/G, combined for a 12th ranking. But that was a shortened season so I dont know how much one can read in to it considering it is last season collapses this team have been known for in the past.

 

[Holymakinaw]

In 08/09 our combined GF/GA ranked us 20th and today we are ranked 19th. But doing so can be a bit misleading but it at least give an indication that we have neither regressed or improved. A 1 spot change is not a lot.

Yup. Makes sense.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Leafs GA record:

08-09 30th
09-10 29th
10-11 25th
11-12 29th
12-13 17th
13-14 26th

Cannot win a cup without improving our GA, it's the players, 2 coach's same results. Need more 2 way players and an upgrade on leaky defencemen like Gardiner, Ranger, and Franson.

 

[Holymakinaw]

That is exactly my point..

No, THIS was your point....

"So 5 years later our Leafs after the rebuild are on pace for less goals for then the one with Blake, Pony, Antropov and Stajan etc in 2008/09."

And it's a very unfair point.

You're implying that today's team should be scoring much more than the team that had Blake, Antro, Poni, Stajan, etc......even though scoring is down league-wide.

Why do you make that point? I don't know.

 

[Mess]

No, THIS was your point....

"So 5 years later our Leafs after the rebuild are on pace for less goals for then the one with Blake, Pony, Antropov and Stajan etc in 2008/09."

And it's a very unfair point.

You're implying that today's team should be scoring much more than the team that had Blake, Antro, Poni, Stajan, etc......even though scoring is down league-wide.

Why do you make that point? I don't know.

Seriously?

You don't see that by showing you the Leafs in 2008-09 was a higher scoring team then today that it shows the entire NHL in 2008-09 was higher scoring overall.

So if the league is higher scoring back then it means that more goals against occurred for all teams.

So if you take a team like Detroit from 2008-09 and show they had 244 goals against (= 2.97 GAA) and Toronto 2013-14 with 211 in 69 games (= 3.05 GAA). They're not equals defensively when you yourself posted and know the league was higher scoring (including our own team).

Originally Posted by Holymakinaw Uh.......scoring is down ACROSS the league, from 2008/09 to 2013/14. In 2008/09, the entire league scored 7006 goals. This season, all the teams are on pace to score approx. 6435 goals.

Scoring is down now but Leafs goal against is going up regardless and that is why they're among the worst teams defensively as a result.