Our Defensive Shortcomings...

[Mess]

But not the actual worst team when it comes to goals against in the 3rd. So at least theres that!

They said the other night Leafs have given up 74 3rd period goals against which was only the 2nd worst team in the NHL.

They never said who was 30th however.

Being a rush team, really comes into play when you don't have the puck and are asked to play defense or defend.

 

[ULF_55]

I'll defer the question to Jacques Lemaire.

 

[SeenSchenn2]

It's both.

Most of these guys are incapable of playing defense.

However the system causes shots from the point because we don't cover it properly; because of our wingers collapsing so low. Their defensemen have time to do whatever they want.

That's it in a general sense, but we also can't cover the front of the net properly.

Edit: And FFS, these people bring in stats when we're solely talking about why we're defensively a mess. We're not bad defensively cause we give up shots. Talk about the problem, not a damn symptom.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Definitely the players.

Not enough players that can be termed 2 way players.

Bozak, is truly the one and only 2 way fwd we have this season, providing offence and defence.

Kulemin, Mcclement, are purely defensive fwds. Not enough offence to consider them 2 way players.

On D, Phaneuf is a good all around D man. Gunnar is more defensive than offensive, Gleason almost zero offence.

Ranger, Franson, Gardiner, and Rielly all have some defensive parts of their games that need improving. Rielly is coming on, and I am willing to cut him some slack since he is a 20 year old rookie. He should be fine in his 2nd year.

But the others not so much.

This team seriously lacks an abundance of 2 way players.

 

[Bardown warrior]

Carlyle's trying to implement the same system in anaheim where his #1 pairing was Niedermyer and Pronger...

If you watch the game closely you'll see that the leafs always leave the points open and collapse infront of the net

 

[diceman934]

Definitely the players.

Not enough players that can be termed 2 way players.

Bozak, is truly the one and only 2 way fwd we have this season, providing offence and defence.

Kulemin, Mcclement, are purely defensive fwds. Not enough offence to consider them 2 way players.

On D, Phaneuf is a good all around D man. Gunnar is more defensive than offensive, Gleason almost zero offence.

Ranger, Franson, Gardiner, and Rielly all have some defensive parts of their games that need improving. Rielly is coming on, and I am willing to cut him some slack since he is a 20 year old rookie. He should be fine in his 2nd year.

But the others not so much.

This team seriously lacks an abundance of 2 way players.

We are soft as a group of forwards.....Clarkson has thrown more hits then all of our forwards, with Kadri being second. Our group of forwards do nothing to discourage puck possession in our zone...

 

[The Winter Soldier]

We are soft as a group of forwards.....Clarkson has thrown more hits then all of our forwards, with Kadri being second. Our group of forwards do nothing to discourage puck possession in our zone...

This team is still a run and gun team, when you get down to it. We are better now than when Wilson coached. But I look at teams like SJ and Boston, and I say to myself, why can't we have 2 way fwds like them?

 

[Tak7]

We had issues with this last season.

It's been apparent ALL season long, and has showed zero signs of being fixed.

And people still don't think it's not the coaching!?!

The "system" in place isn't the right one for this group of players.

You don't need your coaching badges to figure that out.

 

[cynicism]

LOL. Nice.

And why do you and your comrades continue to deny that we're a very young team, prone to mistakes, but gaining more experience with each passing game? And soon all these talented young guys that we have will have more playoff experience as well.

You assume, and wrongly so, that we will never get better. That only bad things will happen to us, and that it'll all come crashing down.

But as young guys like Kadri, Holland, JVR, Gardiner & Reilly all gain more and better experience, why can we not improve? NONE of those guys will ever get any better in your mind?

Meh.

Your way is ONE way to look at it, I suppose.

I prefer the RIGHT way, myself.

No one's denying their youth, their inexperience, their propensity to make mistakes. You people seem to deny that it's a cause for concern. Yes they're young, but you can't use that as an excuse. Everyone has to learn from their mistakes, more importantly the mistakes of others. We've seen minimal improvement in this and other departments since October.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

We had issues with this last season.

It's been apparent ALL season long, and has showed zero signs of being fixed.

And people still don't think it's not the coaching!?!

The "system" in place isn't the right one for this group of players.

You don't need your coaching badges to figure that out.

There is no successful system that doesn't involve playing defense. They need to learn to better execute.

 

[Mess]

There is no successful system that doesn't involve playing defense. They need to learn to better execute.

Agreed.

If this current configuration of players is incapable of playing defense then Nonis needs to continue to acquire players that can.

Being in the bottom 5 in goals and against and 30th in shots against suggest that there are player personnel issue present.

 

[The Legend]

And yet only TWO teams in the entire eastern conference, and only EIGHT in the entire league, have more wins than us.

What does all this tell us?

That we've found ways to win, in spite of 22 blown 3rd period leads. And that that "stat" is as useless as all the corsi stats.

Ever made a post that didn't end with "we have a lot of wins, therefore nothing is wrong "?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ever made a post that didn't end with "we have a lot of wins, therefore nothing is wrong "?

He sometimes ends posts with something like "you must be angry we won last night".

 

[dimi78]

It's neither... the defensive zone defending isn't as bad as people like to think. In fact for the amount of time they spend defending each game they're actually really good limiting scoring chances.

The issue we have falls flat on the bench coaching of Carlyle in how this team go's on attack, distributing TOI and his tactic of not utilizing puck moving D to there full of there abilities. His mind set of 70% defense compared to 30% offense is exactly how this team plays they spend 70% of the game defending compared to 30% on the attack, forchecking & forcing turnovers. He says one thing in his scrums but his tactics behind the bench contradicts what he says he's been PLEADING the players to play.

Micro managing of Mclement having him come in and take defensive draws all through the game not just late in a period like he's should be for both Kadri & Holland has a negative effect on this team to turn defense into offense. puck gets out he changes and they find themselves playing D again anyway cause they've just went up the ice a man short with Mcclement changing. ALL GAME LONG this irritates me to no end.

Having shackles on puck moving D since he became coach has a negative effect on puck possession for this team. Every time I see both Rielly & Gardiner get the puck and there 1st instincts isn't to skate drives me nuts. There skating should be an assets against the forcheck from the opposition but it's not cause both don't use it as they have shackles on them where they have to look for a pass that often is a long stretch pass that ends up icing. When you have 2 not 1 2 damn high end puck moving D Icings is something the Leafs should not be doing yet my money is on they lead the league in icings cause we have shackles on PMD.

The biggest issue has some what been adjusted ironically came about the same time when the media put some heat on him about his job being at stake and that's the stupid 5 man unit micromanaged to death shut down matchup game he deployed that shutdown nobody but his own teams ability to play with any flow & confidence on the offense.

Just about all the issues this team has isn't the D zone it's the offensive side of the puck the moment the Leafs touch the puck, from the break out, the passive aggressive forcheck and the micromanagement of the bench all lead to rope & dope hockey receiving the game way too much.

 

[TieClark]

Close? 22 3rd period leads blown is the worst in the league

They also have a great record when leading after 2 though...

Edit: 25-1-2 to be exact

 

[weems]

It's a combination of both.

With this collection of forward's were never going to be a strong defensive team because so many are either soft or just not very good defensively. Lack of cycle game/strong forecheck, being able to pin other teams in their own end badly hurts our overall puck possesion totals and puts alot of pressure on being able to defend. One of the biggest issue's this team has is its team puck support and being efficient at playing gaps and closing space. You look at almost any strong defensive team and they're elite at supporting the puck and making small little high % pass's or flicks off the boards vs long ice low % pass's which the Leafs do ALOT. It allow's for easier breakouts and managing the puck in dangerous areas and this team is downright awful in this regard. San Jose was a perfectly example of excellant puck support thruout all 3 zones and almost all good teams are very good at this little subtle aspect of the game.

 

[-DeMo-]

people here when Ron Wilson was the coach always said we were terrible defensively because Ron Wilson a coach who has coached over 800 games in the NHL had suddenly lost his ability to coach defense, now we have a Stanley cup winning coach and people still believe a 2nd coach has forgotten how to coach defense.

the fact of the matter is this team is terrible defensively as players. you can't teach commitment and that's what it takes to play great defense and there is 0 commitment from a lot of our forwards to play defense, it's simple as that. and on top of it we have Dmen like Franson, Rielly, and Gardiner who are very poor defensively, Rielly's young and will improve so he's not an issue, but both Gardiner and Franson should be a lot better by now.

it's my belief that both coaches have determined that after coaching this team for a short time that playing a up tempo offensive system and allow players to fly the zone in order to create odd man rushes is probably the best chance to win because there's no way these players are commited enough in the defensive end to win low scoring games on any type of consistant basis.

and for those talking about how we go back into a shell once we get the lead, is kinda false were in that shell pretty much the entire game 5on5. it just gets worst in the third when the other team is down and there Defense start taking more chances to keep the puck in. there might be only 3-4 shifts a game we keep the puck in the offensive zone for longer then 30-40 seconds. majority of our chances come off the rush.

 

[The Reaper]

They also have a great record when leading after 2 though...

Edit: 25-1-2 to be exact

Which is hilarious if you think about it

 

[Holymakinaw]

Ever made a post that didn't end with "we have a lot of wins, therefore nothing is wrong "?

Meh. I never said that everything is perfect. I'd LOVE us to be a super great two-way team, and only give up 20 shots a game and and hardly give up any goals. But that ain't happening this year and we all know it. So why not look at the positives?

We're young, talented, and about to make the playoffs for the 2nd year in a row. As someone else mentioned, we're also 25-1-2 when leading after two periods.

We're doing lots of stuff RIGHT, as well as some stuff wrong.

But because we're 3rd in the east, there's not a whole lot of darkness to dwell on, in my opinion.

 

[dballislife2]

kessel
jvr
lupul
kadri
raymond
clarkson

are all not known for, and has never been labeled good defensive players...they may be skilled, great scorers, and tough physical players, but not good defensive players

bozak
kulemin
mcclement

we pretty much only play 3 forwards that play good defense

this is why we give up so many goals, so many shots, and so many chances

this is why we wont win the cup this year, cus we're not good enough defensively as a team...u can NEVER win a cup giving up so many goals, so many shots, and so many chances

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Carlyle's trying to implement the same system in anaheim where his #1 pairing was Niedermyer and Pronger...

If you watch the game closely you'll see that the leafs always leave the points open and collapse infront of the net

When Anaheim was most productive, Niedermayer and Pronger did not play on the same pairing. The former played with a defensive stalwart Beauchemin who enabled to be a premier offensive defenceman. On the other hand, Pronger was with Sean O'Donnell, and were essentially shutting everyone down. O'Donnel was a mean beast, but was covered by the defensively elite Pronger. Not many were better than him in one-one-one battles.

We're going to need to do the same thing. Get Phaneuf who plays more like a defensive defenceman than a PMD and have him play with a PMD like Gardiner/ Rielly. Gunnarsson could help stabilise the defenceman that doesn't get to play with Phaneuf. I would just have Franson with Gleasson. The first and second pairing could alternate in terms of D duties with Dion pairing going against the Crosbys, Getzlafs, etc.

 

[Purity*]

The Carlyle "haters" always got a bad rap. We're not saying he's a bad coach, we may be winning more games with another style employed. It's becoming pretty clear that Carlyle doesn't use the strengths of this group properly. He even said it himself that he wants us to cycle and grind rather then skate hard and rush. WHY? Why would you not want to supplement the strength of your lineup as opposed to making them play what they're NOT good at? I know we're 3rd in the east, but I seriously there's a better style Carlyle could be employing.

But this whole leaving the points open is REALLY killing us. It's not ****ing science why we get hemmed in our zone a lot, think about it from the other teams' perspective. "Hmmm, if all else fails, just fire it back to the point and we can keep it alive." The collapsing forward **** looks really dumb. We obviously aren't NHL coaches, but we should be able to understand a simple explanation of why it's done that way. Would we not want to have the wingers high due to our great speed? Like none of this ****ing makes sense to me. I never had problems understanding the, say, 2004 team, like I do trying to understand this team. And a poster above me mentioned Gardiner and Rielly having "shackles." This is another thing. They have both shown they can get rolling and blow by guys to start the rush or transition, WHY NOT LET THEM DO IT? That's an advantage, isn't it? Oh yeah another thing Randy, David Clarkson makes the second line ****ing suck. Put your ****ing thinking cap on put Kulemin back on the second line, and give your damn head a shake.

 

[weems]

The Carlyle "haters" always got a bad rap. We're not saying he's a bad coach, we may be winning more games with another style employed. It's becoming pretty clear that Carlyle doesn't use the strengths of this group properly. He even said it himself that he wants us to cycle and grind rather then skate hard and rush. WHY? Why would you not want to supplement the strength of your lineup as opposed to making them play what they're NOT good at? I know we're 3rd in the east, but I seriously there's a better style Carlyle could be employing.

But this whole leaving the points open is REALLY killing us. It's not ****ing science why we get hemmed in our zone a lot, think about it from the other teams' perspective. "Hmmm, if all else fails, just fire it back to the point and we can keep it alive." The collapsing forward **** looks really dumb. We obviously aren't NHL coaches, but we should be able to understand a simple explanation of why it's done that way. Would we not want to have the wingers high due to our great speed? Like none of this ****ing makes sense to me. I never had problems understanding the, say, 2004 team, like I do trying to understand this team. And a poster above me mentioned Gardiner and Rielly having "shackles." This is another thing. They have both shown they can get rolling and blow by guys to start the rush or transition, WHY NOT LET THEM DO IT? That's an advantage, isn't it? Oh yeah another thing Randy, David Clarkson makes the second line ****ing suck. Put your ****ing thinking cap on put Kulemin back on the second line, and give your damn head a shake.

I'm confused.
This team currently IS a fast skating "off the rush" team. They dont grind anything and are being allowed to play a soft style that has them constantly cheating defensively to make gains in the offensive end. I dont see this grinding dump and chase style you speak of. I can understand some having beef with some of the personel decisions Randy makes but hes actually allowing many of this teams players TO play to their strengths.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Definitely the players.

Not enough players that can be termed 2 way players.

Bozak, is truly the one and only 2 way fwd we have this season, providing offence and defence.

Kulemin, Mcclement, are purely defensive fwds. Not enough offence to consider them 2 way players.

On D, Phaneuf is a good all around D man. Gunnar is more defensive than offensive, Gleason almost zero offence.

Ranger, Franson, Gardiner, and Rielly all have some defensive parts of their games that need improving. Rielly is coming on, and I am willing to cut him some slack since he is a 20 year old rookie. He should be fine in his 2nd year.

But the others not so much.

This team seriously lacks an abundance of 2 way players.

Agree with your post.

Bolland missing is a huge hole.

At forward our 2nd/3rd liners have too many defensive issues. Lupul, Kadri, Raymond, Holland, Clarkson are all either suspect defensively or average at very best and that is simply too many players playing significant minutes.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Not enough 2-way forwards. Some young and inexperienced defenders and some ones who simply lack hockey IQ to play defensive hockey consistently. And that is kind of they key word here, consistency. Playing good defensively for long periods can be ruined by one or a couple of bad mistakes and sloppy plays and be the difference between us winning or losing.
The system might not be the best but I fail to see what kind of system that would make us solid defensively considering the players we have.