OT: OT: Lets Go Cardinals! (All Baseball Talk Here) Part 2

[Mike Liut]

The one game Waino plays at a winnable level, the offense didn't show up

the offense checked out a week ago

 

[542365]

Roby, prospect acquired for Montgomery, had his first start in the Cards organization coming off a shoulder injury. 6 strikeouts in 3 innings, 1 walk, 1 run, and hit a season high 99 on the gun and sat at 97. Shoulder issues are a concern, but it seems to be in decent shape if he's running it up that high on the gun.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Edman with a pinch hit first pitch single to walk it off. This season sucks, but the game tonight was fun to watch (I started watching in the 6th)

 

[Memento]

Edman with another walk-off hit, this time a two run homer! And Jordan Walker with a four hit day, including a three-run homer!

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I'll laugh if the Cards put a claim in on Bader.

 

[sbet1998]

Looking like Walker is rounding into form and getting more comfortable as the season goes along after the Cardinals tried to ruin, or "change" him for hitting too many ground balls in his first 3 weeks of his career.

This front office has been a trainwreck this season. So many blunders that made national news.

 

[PJJJP]

Looking like Walker is rounding into form and getting more comfortable as the season goes along after the Cardinals tried to ruin, or "change" him for hitting too many ground balls in his first 3 weeks of his career.

This front office has been a trainwreck this season. So many blunders that made national news.

Or it’s more like rookie struggles during his rookie season and more time and experience has helped him as we get later in the season

 

[sbet1998]

Or it’s more like rookie struggles during his rookie season and more time and experience has helped him as we get later in the season

That was my point. The Cardinals sending him back down to "change" the swing that made him the best prospect in baseball just a few weeks after they promoted him was ridiculous, idiotic, and short-sighted to say the least. It was also a huge red flag that this franchise is in trouble with the current people running things along with the rookie manager/coaching hires and lack of understanding their roster better than the f***ing fans. Everyone but them knew they needed pitching..

 

[PJJJP]

That was my point. The Cardinals sending him back down to "change" the swing that made him the best prospect in baseball just a few weeks after they promoted him was ridiculous, idiotic, and short-sighted to say the least. It was also a huge red flag that this franchise is in trouble with the current people running things along with the rookie manager/coaching hires and lack of understanding their roster better than the f***ing fans. Everyone but them knew they needed pitching..

I don't find that puzzling at all. Walker basically skipped the AAA level and when he was up here he was performing bad. Might as well send him back down to AAA so he can work on his swing and get his confidence back up and call him up when you think he is ready again. Other teams do it all the time with prospects.

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

I don't find that puzzling at all. Walker basically skipped the AAA level and when he was up here he was performing bad. Might as well send him back down to AAA so he can work on his swing and get his confidence back up and call him up when you think he is ready again. Other teams do it all the time with prospects.

Disagree.

He was hitting well. There wasn't a good reason to send him down.

Launch angle was an excuse or bad management.

Jordan Walker matches MLB record for rookie-debut hitting streak

The hits keep coming for St. Louis Cardinals young star Jordan Walker. Now, so does a share of an impressive MLB record.

fox2now.com

 

[joe galiba]

Disagree.

He was hitting well. There wasn't a good reason to send him down.

Launch angle was an excuse or bad management.

Jordan Walker matches MLB record for rookie-debut hitting streak

The hits keep coming for St. Louis Cardinals young star Jordan Walker. Now, so does a share of an impressive MLB record.

fox2now.com

On 4/9 Walker was hitting .353/.405/.588 w/ops of .994 over 9 games w/ 37 plate appearances
by 4/23, when he was sent down, it was all the way down to .274/.321/.397 w/ops of .718 after 20games; w/41 plate appearances over those next 11 games

he absolutely wasn't hitting well at the time they sent him down
and the Cardinals did exactly what they were supposed to do, they let Walker alone until he struggled and then sent him down with some things hitting and fielding to work on

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

On 4/9 Walker was hitting .353/.405/.588 w/ops of .994 over 9 games w/ 37 plate appearances
by 4/23, when he was sent down, it was all the way down to .274/.321/.397 w/ops of .718 after 20games; w/41 plate appearances over those next 11 games

he absolutely wasn't hitting well at the time they sent him down
and the Cardinals did exactly what they were supposed to do, they let Walker alone until he struggled and then sent him down with some things hitting and fielding to work on

I stand corrected.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Winn hits his first HR

 

[sbet1998]

On 4/9 Walker was hitting .353/.405/.588 w/ops of .994 over 9 games w/ 37 plate appearances
by 4/23, when he was sent down, it was all the way down to .274/.321/.397 w/ops of .718 after 20games; w/41 plate appearances over those next 11 games

he absolutely wasn't hitting well at the time they sent him down
and the Cardinals did exactly what they were supposed to do, they let Walker alone until he struggled and then sent him down with some things hitting and fielding to work on

The problem is everyone knew that a rookie who is learning the league will have ups and downs and probably a lot of downs. They knew that and yet sent him down for essentially having a bad week which every player in the league will have multiple of in any given season.

They didnt stop there though, they wanted him to fundamentally change his swing and he went into a massive slump in the minors until he decided to go back to what made him successful -- basically telling them to pound sand and immediately he started hammering the ball again. They then called him back up again and have since left him alone to go through many more slumps as he figures out the league and settles in.

What changed in their philosophy in those two months? They basically admitted they made mistakes by their actions afterwards. Take note of that when you are defending their decisions with Walker.

 

[542365]

I don’t really have a problem with how the team handled Walker. They had a glut of outfielders and he clearly needed some confidence and polish and it seems to have worked out fine. On the other hand, I HATE how the team treated Contreras and O’Neill at the beginning of the year. Just threw them under the bus to take the fall for a horrendous pitching staff.

 

[joe galiba]

The problem is everyone knew that a rookie who is learning the league will have ups and downs and probably a lot of downs. They knew that and yet sent him down for essentially having a bad week which every player in the league will have multiple of in any given season.

They didnt stop there though, they wanted him to fundamentally change his swing and he went into a massive slump in the minors until he decided to go back to what made him successful -- basically telling them to pound sand and immediately he started hammering the ball again. They then called him back up again and have since left him alone to go through many more slumps as he figures out the league and settles in.

What changed in their philosophy in those two months? They basically admitted they made mistakes by their actions afterwards. Take note of that when you are defending their decisions with Walker.

Except he didn't go into a massive slump when he was sent down, he already was in one

also, the work to fix him hitting too many ground ball WAS effective
he was at 58.5% ground balls when he was sent down, he currently is down to 48.8% for the season, the MLB average is 44.7% so he has been better than average since he came back from the minors
his defense which he was working on as well, while still not good, is also noticeably better since he came back

a established MLB player certainly has ups and downs and you let them work through it
for a 21 year old who has never played one game in AAA, a poorly run organization would leave him hung out to dry at the major league level hoping that he might, maybe, figure it out, a good organization would send him to AAA to work on things

 

[sbet1998]

Except he didn't go into a massive slump when he was sent down, he already was in one

also, the work to fix him hitting too many ground ball WAS effective
he was at 58.5% ground balls when he was sent down, he currently is down to 48.8% for the season, the MLB average is 44.7% so he has been better than average since he came back from the minors
his defense which he was working on as well, while still not good, is also noticeably better since he came back

a established MLB player certainly has ups and downs and you let them work through it
for a 21 year old who has never played one game in AAA, a poorly run organization would leave him hung out to dry at the major league level hoping that he might, maybe, figure it out, a good organization would send him to AAA to work on things

Sounds great if you avoid facts. He was in a slump but nothing like the prolonged slump that followed when they sent him down to change his swing.

He publicly stated he abandoned trying to change his approach and went back to his normal swing.

As soon as he found success again (without their changes) he was brought up and left alone and given ample playing time yet still struggled for stretches -- but this time they let him stay up and remained patient. Seemed a lesson was learned but it wasnt Walker's to learn.

He didnt change his swing so the results you cite above are due to better pitch selection and understanding the league, how he's being pitched and the individual pitchers better. You might note that his walk rate has increased as well for the same reason.

The Cardinals mishandled him. It is what it is. Even they know that.

 

[sbet1998]

I don’t really have a problem with how the team handled Walker. They had a glut of outfielders and he clearly needed some confidence and polish and it seems to have worked out fine. On the other hand, I HATE how the team treated Contreras and O’Neill at the beginning of the year. Just threw them under the bus to take the fall for a horrendous pitching staff.

I get that, but they mishandled Walker. They shouldnt have brought him up to begin with if they had any doubts about him. He was slumping in the last half of spring.

You're right -- the way they treated Contreras after making him their off-season target and Marmol calling out O'Neill publicly in game 5 was ridiculous.

People still want to defend their decisions..

 

[sbet1998]

They brought Walker back up as soon as he abandoned their launch-angle ideology and started hitting again. They didnt wait until September or he learned the OF.. they've left him alone to figure it out since.

They've admitted their mistake through their actions. Its clear as day.

What we should be talking about is if 50 needs to be in the bullpen and used strategically to get a couple wins. I cant see it happening with him continuing to start.

The Cardinal's website's phrasing of Wainwright's outing was hilarious;

"Backed by Tommy Edman's 2-run single Wainwright pitches 5 2/3 innings of 6-run ball"

Factual, I guess.

 

[PJJJP]

Sounds great if you avoid facts. He was in a slump but nothing like the prolonged slump that followed when they sent him down to change his swing.

He publicly stated he abandoned trying to change his approach and went back to his normal swing.

As soon as he found success again (without their changes) he was brought up and left alone and given ample playing time yet still struggled for stretches -- but this time they let him stay up and remained patient. Seemed a lesson was learned but it wasnt Walker's to learn.

He didnt change his swing so the results you cite above are due to better pitch selection and understanding the league, how he's being pitched and the individual pitchers better. You might note that his walk rate has increased as well for the same reason.

The Cardinals mishandled him. It is what it is. Even they know that.

There are articles quoting him saying he worked on his swing down in Memphis and made small adjustements on getting out in front of the ball which allowed him to add more loft to his swing.
Here is a quote from the Post Dispatch
"More of a “feel guy” when it comes to his swing, Walker has spent time working with first-year Memphis hitting coach Howie Clark to make minor mechanical tweaks to his swing. Some of that includes avoiding overloading and over-rotating, which created some issues with seeing the ball. Recently, Walker has placed a focus on trying to make contact with pitches when he’s “more out front” on his swing, which he said leads to more loft."

 

[sbet1998]

There are articles quoting him saying he worked on his swing down in Memphis and made small adjustements on getting out in front of the ball which allowed him to add more loft to his swing.
Here is a quote from the Post Dispatch
"More of a “feel guy” when it comes to his swing, Walker has spent time working with first-year Memphis hitting coach Howie Clark to make minor mechanical tweaks to his swing. Some of that includes avoiding overloading and over-rotating, which created some issues with seeing the ball. Recently, Walker has placed a focus on trying to make contact with pitches when he’s “more out front” on his swing, which he said leads to more loft."

There's a difference between making minor adjustments (that all players do) to get out in front of the ball and fundamentally changing his swing altogether.

“I was told to start hitting the ball in the air, and that kind of got to me a little bit,” Walker said in Infield’s video.

“There’s no point in trying to hit the ball in the air if I’m not hitting the ball at all,” he added later in the clip.

“I forced myself to do things that I usually don’t do,” Walker said in the video. “Right now, I’m not too worried about getting the ball in the air more and I’m starting to drive the ball a lot better now. I think it’s just being more relaxed and not thinking about it at the plate.

“I just have to trust myself and trust how my swing’s been the past three years that I’ve been in the organization. That’s just what I have faith in.”

Im cherry-picking a bit and there is some context missing here but basically this was what he said in that viral twitter clip you can find online.

Anyway, who cares. We've beaten this to death at this point.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Stop the presses, Wainright got #199

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Stop the presses, Wainright got #199

I'm surprised they gave him run support

 

[kimzey59]

Not really sure where to put this but
Home run for Hayes | NHL.com

Homeruns in CBP, Fenway, Old Yankee stadium and now Busch?
Fairly impressive for a hockey player.

 

[TheDizee]

cards havent finished in last place in the entire history of the NL Central but lets reward the manager who is a key cog in why that happened. Mozaliek should have been fired in 2016-17.