Ontario Reign 20-21 part II Growing Pains

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's a fairly common observance that younger "developing" players look better at the NHL level than in the AHL (Kupari mentioned it himself and Jim Fox has referenced it recently) because the players around them are more experienced and "better"...

it stands to reason then that a team FULL of young players might look out of sync since none of them have the experience or chemistry that you might find at the NHL level.

Food for thought.

Better support and more 'flow', makes sense. Easier to make reads on either side of the puck when people aren't so choppy, jumpy, dumb.

 

[Steve Zissou]

Madden news... kinda. Sorta.

 

[Mats26]

It's a fairly common observance that younger "developing" players look better at the NHL level than in the AHL (Kupari mentioned it himself and Jim Fox has referenced it recently) because the players around them are more experienced and "better"...

it stands to reason then that a team FULL of young players might look out of sync since none of them have the experience or chemistry that you might find at the NHL level.

Food for thought.

The NHL also has better coaching and structure but that doesn't mean all AHL prospects will thrive or look better in the NHL. There are players who are in the NHL that have not come close to their projected ceiling while playing well in the AHL. I guess what I am saying is, yes some prospects will make it and play well in the NHL, but be prepared to be disappointed in some of them. In the end it lands on the player's commitment and hardwork they put it to strive and reach the highest level they can play at. And hopefully it will be good enough to stay in the league for a long time.

 

[BigKing]

It's a fairly common observance that younger "developing" players look better at the NHL level than in the AHL (Kupari mentioned it himself and Jim Fox has referenced it recently) because the players around them are more experienced and "better"...

it stands to reason then that a team FULL of young players might look out of sync since none of them have the experience or chemistry that you might find at the NHL level.

Food for thought.

This has been my hope while watching this train wreck.

 

[Statto]

It's a fairly common observance that younger "developing" players look better at the NHL level than in the AHL (Kupari mentioned it himself and Jim Fox has referenced it recently) because the players around them are more experienced and "better"...

it stands to reason then that a team FULL of young players might look out of sync since none of them have the experience or chemistry that you might find at the NHL level.

Food for thought.

That’s been my feeling on it, there’s a problem with the ratio of veteran players to rookies. I know the argument then becomes about building the roster correctly but the Covid situation has impacted things because it’s limited the options for some players. So in some cases they’d not be playing at all which would be a much bigger problem. It also makes trades/moves to improve things harder because I presume players will need to quarantine and must make it harder to find trading partners. Is there much movement going on at the AHL level? I’m guessing not.

Also, the guys called up have looked decent at the NHL level, certainly not out of place, so in that sense something is going right. It’s not coming together at a team level, although systems/coaching etc don’t excuse some of the individual errors we are seeing. Clague certainly ‘looks’ like he is sulking and if that’s the case then he certainly won’t be getting protected in the expansion draft. The goaltending really isn’t helping either and when a team have no confidence in the goaltending it always leads to issues. Hopefully getting Turcotte back will start to galvanise them a little.

I think if you put all the issues together it is a bit of a perfect storm. Perhaps it is a valid reason for the situation (it’s never a valid excuse) but it is still unacceptable from a results standpoint and there is a point at which it starts to hurt player development. However, it doesn’t mean that sacking the coach is the right thing. It all comes down to if they understand what the problem is and how to fix it. If they do, even if it’s a slow fix, I’m fine with that. If not, Blake has some decisions to make.

 

[Reaper45]

I really feel like this team needs a AAAA level player like a Tom Kostopolous/Brad Smyth/Derek Armstrong type who can score at this level and still provide some toughness.

 

[kilowatt]

I really feel like this team needs a AAAA level player like a Tom Kostopolous/Brad Smyth/Derek Armstrong type who can score at this level and still provide some toughness.

In theory, that's what Sutter is there for.

 

[Statto]

In theory, that's what Sutter is there for.

Which takes us back to the perfect storm. Previously reliable in that role he’s not been himself, perhaps one of the guys struggling to adapt to the new system? Last year he would have really helped take the pressure of the prospects but he’s been well short of his usual reliable self IMO.

 

[Reaper45]

In theory, that's what Sutter is there for.

In theory sure, but couldn’t hurt to have another.

 

[All The Kings Men]

I don't know how the minutes are being distributed but it seems like Sutter and Byron (until the last two games or so) are getting bottom 6 if not outright 4th line minutes whereas in the past guys they got top minutes.

Last season Byron wound up with 21 points in 29 games. This season he's at 8 points in 13 games.

.72ppg vs .61ppg

Lately he's been moved up to the top line with Lias Andersson so we'll see how that plays out.

Additionally... it's been unclear how much time they'll have with Byfield and Kaliyev so I'll forgive them if the feeling was they need to capitalize on the time they have with them to find out just how ready they are.

Part of putting a focus on development is establishing a baseline. WHAT needs to be developed. Where are the weak spots. Well... we've found plenty of weak spots. The question now is what do they do with that information. Do they or don't they "develop"?

I'm not interested in any of the conversations about which picks were mistakes etc... the players they have are the players they have. The conversation now is how do you optimize what you have to be as competitive as possible. EDIT: and for as long as possible. /EDIT

There's no Calder Cup this year. Expectations were high (partially the fault of those of us that pump up expectations for a living) and there's extra focus due to the current state of the world... but it's 13 games of a wacky throw away season. It's no fun to watch... but then neither is the proverbial drying paint.



but if you're redoing your house, you still have to let the paint dry.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Maybe Nelly, Muzz, CJ, Stolly, OD and Greener aren’t good at developing prospects just because they’re friends of BLuc.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Maybe Nelly, Muzz, CJ, Stolly, OD and Greener aren’t good at developing prospects just because they’re friends of BLuc.

Good point. Sean Walker, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot, Gabe Vilardi, and Mikey Anderson are all garbage.

 

[Vino]

I don't know how the minutes are being distributed but it seems like Sutter and Byron (until the last two games or so) are getting bottom 6 if not outright 4th line minutes whereas in the past guys they got top minutes.

Last season Byron wound up with 21 points in 29 games. This season he's at 8 points in 13 games.

.72ppg vs .61ppg

Lately he's been moved up to the top line with Lias Andersson so we'll see how that plays out.

Sutter is 4th line center (5vs.5, even strenght), but plays most shorthanded situation (mostly with Dudas).

Byron's evenstrenght linemates (most of time):

Game 1. Byron - Byfield - Fagemo
Game 2. Byron - Byfield - Fagemo
Game 3. Byron - Kupari - Fagemo
Game 4. Byron - Kupari - Fagemo
Game 5. Byron - Kupari - Fagemo
Game 6. Byron - Kupari - Fagemo
Game 7. Byron - Kupari - Fagemo

Game 8. Byron - Sutter - Doty
Game 9. Eyssimont - Sutter - Byron
Game 10. Byron - Dudas - Halloran

Game 11. Byron - Andersson - Fagemo
Game 12. Byron - Andersson - Fagemo

Games against San Jose (#9 and #10) were so f***ing unwatchable, so I'm not sure how much lines varied.

Byron also gets some PP2 -icetime, so I'm sorry, but I just don't belive, that Byron gets "bottom 6 if not outright 4th line minutes". I love to see some reliable AHL-icetime stats and it's really pisses me off, that accurate AHL-stats are badly lacking.

I'm pretty sure, that Byfield plays most, because he plays evenstrenght, PP1 and also SH. Akil Thomas also plays a lot.

 

[BringTheReign]

Good point. Sean Walker, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot, Gabe Vilardi, and Mikey Anderson are all garbage.

Great point, and add Kempe to that list, perhaps even Lizotte and Iafallo from a talent ID perspective. You'd also be hard-pressed to find any development staff around the league that isn't filled with former players.

I get the old boys club critique, but there's also the fact that the people in the best position to understand what's needed to play in the NHL are, well, NHL players.

 

[Statto]

I love to see some reliable AHL-icetime stats and it's really pisses me off, that accurate AHL-stats are badly lacking.

I can imagine getting people to do the stats isn’t that easy. It took me months to find someone to replace to me doing team stats on road games (due to other commitments). That was try to find just one person. Finding someone both willing and capable isn’t that easy.you then have to train them what a hit actually is, not what they think it is and so on. To then do something like shift length for each player requires a small team of people to do it properly.

It isn’t hard to imagine that there are teams that are unable to do much more than shots, +/- and hits. It’s not easy recording just that stuff if it’s only 1 person per team, I can promise you.

I fully accept your frustration though... I’d love those numbers.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Good point. Sean Walker, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot, Gabe Vilardi, and Mikey Anderson are all garbage.

Roy and Walker are 26, neither screams accelerated development and Walker was a college UFA. The other three are playing well given their ages, but the evaluation is still a work in progress. Iafallo and Lizotte are also college UFAs.

I could easily point to players like Andersson, Grundstrom and JAD as players who haven’t broken out and turned into consistent players despite time with the development staff. And Kempe is the ultimate example of slowed development. But I’m sure folks will say in those cases it’s on the players, not hockey ops.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Roy and Walker are 26, neither screams accelerated development and Walker was a college UFA. The other three are playing well given their ages, but the evaluation is still a work in progress. Iafallo and Lizotte are also college UFAs.

I could easily point to players like Andersson, Grundstrom and JAD as players who haven’t broken out and turned into consistent players despite time with the development staff. And Kempe is the ultimate example of slowed development. But I’m sure folks will say in those cases it’s on the players, not hockey ops.

When did "accelerated development" become the criterion? Again, your words: "Maybe Nelly, Muzz, CJ, Stolly, OD and Greener aren’t good at developing prospects just because they’re friends of BLuc."

How do Walker being an undrafted college UFA and Roy being a 7th round pick become some sort of negative part of the development track record? Objectively, the fact that the Kings are able to bring in undrafted college free agents (Walker, Lizotte, Iafallo) and turn them into productive and contributing pros is a positive mark for the development team, not a negative.

Andersson: he has been with the franchise for all of 2 months now. Are we seriously ratcheting up the passing threshold for the development staff to "must turn into consistent contributing NHL player in under 2 months"?

Grundstrom: what exactly are the expectations here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a realistic projection of him at the time of the trade was that he'd be a physical 3rd line player with some skill. Is the expectation now that the development staff must make all prospects reach higher ceilings than projected in a specific period of time, otherwise they failed?

JAD: sure seemed like he was consistently breaking out until he got hurt, and the bottom 6 has not had the same continuity and impressive play since has been out of the lineup.

It seems as though your position is that the Kings don't get credit for turning unheralded prospects into contributing NHL players (or even a top defenseman, in Roy's case), they must achieve full development with prospects in a matter of months, they must successfully develop every single prospect in the system into consistent NHL players, development can only ever take a linear trajectory, and we don't factor in year-over-year progress into the evaluation at all. When that's the standard we're measuring by, I can see why it's easy to say that they're not good at developing prospects.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Roy and Walker are 26, neither screams accelerated development and Walker was a college UFA. The other three are playing well given their ages, but the evaluation is still a work in progress. Iafallo and Lizotte are also college UFAs.

I could easily point to players like Andersson, Grundstrom and JAD as players who haven’t broken out and turned into consistent players despite time with the development staff. And Kempe is the ultimate example of slowed development. But I’m sure folks will say in those cases it’s on the players, not hockey ops.

Kings are literally one of the best teams by factual measures at turning out NHLers in any round.

I think the jury is out on what they do with blue-chip talent, but it's a really, really hard sell to try to pick on the Kings development in general.

Can't really pretend Roy and Walker were finished products out of college, they spent time on the farm. Iafallo less so, but his development year over year is a testament to both him and the staff.

Andersson has been here months. Grundstrom looks inconsistent but we all want to see him get more time in the lineup instead of jerked around. JAD was perched on breaking out, but got hurt. Basically everyone that's come up this year has looked pretty damn good.

Really not sure what your qualm is? We can complain about nepotism ethically but not in the results.

 

[tbrown33]

Isn't JAD basically exactly on track and now looking better than most of us thought he would be in the short look we've gotten so far? He looks like he's potentially breaking through what we thought his ceiling was. Weird one to call out. He's 21 years old.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Sutter is 4th line center (5vs.5, even strenght), but plays most shorthanded situation (mostly with Dudas).
Byron also gets some PP2 -icetime, so I'm sorry, but I just don't belive, that Byron gets "bottom 6 if not outright 4th line minutes". I love to see some reliable AHL-icetime stats and it's really pisses me off, that accurate AHL-stats are badly lacking.

I'm pretty sure, that Byfield plays most, because he plays evenstrenght, PP1 and also SH. Akil Thomas also plays a lot.

You know... I actually wrote the bit about 4th line minutes before remembering to even mention Byron so you're right. I was primarily talking about Sutter.

As for the side conversation that has spun up about the development staff.... *fart noise*

 

[VILARGOD]

Reign definitely benefitted last year from players like Frk who could put the puck in the net almost every single time the team needed to get back in the game, along with vets like Mario Kempe, they helped a lot. The vets we have now are kind of shitting the bed and we don't have that veteran AHL prolific scorer that would really help... Byron has been alright but he can't save the team by himself.

I completely agree that Durzi has been absolute shite. All around disaster, I am definitely beginning to write him off. So many turnovers, so many bad offensive decisions.

 

[Herby]

I really feel like this team needs a AAAA level player like a Tom Kostopolous/Brad Smyth/Derek Armstrong type who can score at this level and still provide some toughness.

What is Downtown Robbie Brown up to?

And Brad Smyth was a name I hadn't heard in years, what a career, 20 different professional teams. He was the ultimate AAAA player

 

[tbrown33]

Kempe smiles when he scores now. No more of that weird serial killer shit.

 

[tbrown33]

wrong ass thread

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Lmao Reign.

Two quick ones against again.