Ontario Reign 20-21 part II Growing Pains

[ru4reals]

Nick and Darryl looking at each other after the game. This is our last AHL game correct? LOL. Just keep plugging away. Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

 

[Ray Martyniuk]

Yesterday it was 3-0 after 1.

Progress.

Sad really?Disappointed big time!WTF is going on?

 

[driller1]

The only thing that made me smile was the last Reign PP. Arty Party decided to blast a shot into the dman 3 straight times. Dude was hobbled so bad he couldn’t move and launched the puck over the glass. Dudes gonna have a limp in the morning. I give him credit for hanging in there...

On the other hand, Durzi decided to give the Condors forward all the time and space he wanted in the slot, then decided to duck when he shot it, resulting in the last Condors goal. Game review will not be kind to him on that play.

 

[Herby]

Nick and Darryl looking at each other after the game. This is our last AHL game correct? LOL. Just keep plugging away. Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

What do they do? 1 win in 13 games, 5 or more goals allowed in 7 of those games. High end prospects really struggling all over the ice. Horrible brain farts basically every game, bad turnovers, lazy penalties. There really is amazingly nothing positive to draw from this team other than Fagemo and Kupari (before call-up).

If the Kings had started this bad in the NHL I think TMac would have been fired by now. I know the minors are a different story but is Wroblewski just in way over his head?

 

[Herby]

The only thing that made me smile was the last Reign PP. Arty Party decided to blast a shot into the dman 3 straight times. Dude was hobbled so bad he couldn’t move and launched the puck over the glass. Dudes gonna have a limp in the morning. I give him credit for hanging in there...

On the other hand, Durzi decided to give the Condors forward all the time and space he wanted in the slot, then decided to duck when he shot it, resulting in the last Condors goal. Game review will not be kind to him on that play.

 

[King'sPawn]

What do they do? 1 win in 13 games, 5 or more goals allowed in 7 of those games. High end prospects really struggling all over the ice. Horrible brain farts basically every game, bad turnovers, lazy penalties. There really is amazingly nothing positive to draw from this team other than Fagemo and Kupari (before call-up).

If the Kings had started this bad in the NHL I think TMac would have been fired by now. I know the minors are a different story but is Wroblewski just in way over his head?

I honestly think Wrobo is trying to implement TMac's system. It's about learning and communicating from his side.

Plus, again, he has a team of rookies.

I'm not saying Wrobo won't be a problem, but I don't think it's fair to judge him on these circumstances.

 

[Herby]

I honestly think Wrobo is trying to implement TMac's system. It's about learning and communicating from his side.

Plus, again, he has a team of rookies.

I'm not saying Wrobo won't be a problem, but I don't think it's fair to judge him on these circumstances.

1-12 though?

I understand changes, youth and adjustments but this can't be a good environment for a team that has almost all the Kings best prospects on it. They are getting destroyed defensively almost every night.

 

[King'sPawn]

1-12 though?

I understand changes, youth and adjustments but this can't be a good environment for a team that has almost all the Kings best prospects on it. They are getting destroyed defensively almost every night.

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the abswer is? There's Byfield and Kaliyev, whose only other option is the NHL. You don't think the AHL is the best spot for Turcotte (not saying it to be argumentative, just making the point of the youth).

Then you have Fagemo, Thomas, and Dudas who are also AHL rookies.

Then you have a blueline of Strand, Clague, and a bunch of underachievers (well, Moverare is injured).

In net, there's nobody who has taken the No. 1 spot. It's not like goaltending has been the reason they've lost, but they've yet to keep the team into it.

A rookie coach trying to implement the parent team's system, mixed with the above factors, is understandable. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but do we blame the coach? Do we blame Blake? Do we blame Seeley? Or something else?

I'm sure it's multifactorial. I'm sure they expected it to have challenges but they can't be okay with this record.

I DO think the young players are doing okay. Not fantastic. Not NHL ready. But they are generating offensive chances that haven't gone in. They've had lapses where vets haven't bailed them out. So you hope as time goes on they learn from it.

 

[ru4reals]

What do they do? 1 win in 13 games, 5 or more goals allowed in 7 of those games. High end prospects really struggling all over the ice. Horrible brain farts basically every game, bad turnovers, lazy penalties. There really is amazingly nothing positive to draw from this team other than Fagemo and Kupari (before call-up).

If the Kings had started this bad in the NHL I think TMac would have been fired by now. I know the minors are a different story but is Wroblewski just in way over his head?

Pretty much!!!

 

[Herby]

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the abswer is? There's Byfield and Kaliyev, whose only other option is the NHL. You don't think the AHL is the best spot for Turcotte (not saying it to be argumentative, just making the point of the youth).

Then you have Fagemo, Thomas, and Dudas who are also AHL rookies.

Then you have a blueline of Strand, Clague, and a bunch of underachievers (well, Moverare is injured).

In net, there's nobody who has taken the No. 1 spot. It's not like goaltending has been the reason they've lost, but they've yet to keep the team into it.

A rookie coach trying to implement the parent team's system, mixed with the above factors, is understandable. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but do we blame the coach? Do we blame Blake? Do we blame Seeley? Or something else?

I'm sure it's multifactorial. I'm sure they expected it to have challenges but they can't be okay with this record.

I DO think the young players are doing okay. Not fantastic. Not NHL ready. But they are generating offensive chances that haven't gone in. They've had lapses where vets haven't bailed them out. So you hope as time goes on they learn from it.

My issue with sending back Byfield to the OHL is that it's already a league he has dominated in, he has nothing to gain and is going to likely pick up bad habits that the Kings should be trying to eliminate. He isn't NHL ready, but what can you do, sending him down is not a good idea. Have him up with the big club, get him in some games, mix in some conditioning assignments, I think thats the way to go assuming the OHL returns.

Kaliyev I guess you have to send him back to the OHL if it re-starts, I know it contradicts what I said about Byfield but the Kings are between a rock and a hard place with him, Arty is a tough player to evaluate because his entire worth comes down to scoring goals. He's never going to be someone who is counted on to do anything else, he either scores goals and is effective or he doesn't and isn't.. I don't know if having him in the NHL helps anyone, he hasn't looked as good down there as I had hoped. If the OHL returns I guess send him down there and then re-evaluate in the fall, I don't think he warrants taking a roster spot (where as Byfield does). I also don't think he develops bad habits, the bad habits are always going to be there and won't negatively effect his longterm value the way it would Byfield who the Kings expect to be a dominant two-way center.

Turcotte, the Kings can't do anything else but keep playing him and hope that he finds his game. They aren't going to send him to Saginaw. Maybe when/if the OHL comes back and Arty and Byfield have to go somewhere + a guy like Fagemo gets called up that opens up more ice time and he can find his game. Just like with last year I just don't see a player who is living up to the expectations of where he was drafted. I think he is a lot further away from the NHL than some people here think.

Clague looks worse in the AHL than he did in the NHL. Really disappointing because he had some nice moments for the Kings this year (one of those games @ St. Louis he was noticeably good). I had some hopes that Durzi could be a modern day Joe Corvo type for the Kings but his defensive game might just be to bad to ever be that kind of player, he is noticeably bad defensively in the AHL, which is obviously a huge drop off from the NHL. Decent shot by Blake but he is probably a career AHL offensive d-man.

Strand looked pretty good for the Kings this year, but long term he is probably another AAAA type d-man. But still, guys like him, Alt and Brickley should be atleast competent AHL defenseman. These type of defensive disasters happening on a nightly basis shouldn't be happening.

Wroblewski wasn't dealt a great hand, but 1-12 is just embarrassingly bad, and beyond any kind of reasonable excuses. They make stupid inexcusable mistakes almost every game, and that is true of everyone, vets + rookies. Kale Clague for instance, he is a 3rd year pro and former 2nd round pick, that turnover today just can't happen for anyone, much less a guy like him. But it's been par for the course since his demotion. Eventually some blame has to fall on the coaches, and I think we are at that point.

On Blake/Seeley, I still don't know how much autonomy Seeley has and how much of it is Blake. Most of the roster are under contract to the Kings, but I've been told that Seeley hired the entire coaching staff. It's just hard in talking about an AHL team and firing or removing people, especially when the NHL team is actually doing pretty well. But can Blake just be hands off and let it completely go down the toilet with such valuable assets on the roster? Maybe he can, but this is a historically bad team for the AHL through 13 games and I worry about the effect it will have on some of these guys.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the abswer is? There's Byfield and Kaliyev, whose only other option is the NHL. You don't think the AHL is the best spot for Turcotte (not saying it to be argumentative, just making the point of the youth).

Then you have Fagemo, Thomas, and Dudas who are also AHL rookies.

Then you have a blueline of Strand, Clague, and a bunch of underachievers (well, Moverare is injured).

In net, there's nobody who has taken the No. 1 spot. It's not like goaltending has been the reason they've lost, but they've yet to keep the team into it.

A rookie coach trying to implement the parent team's system, mixed with the above factors, is understandable. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but do we blame the coach? Do we blame Blake? Do we blame Seeley? Or something else?

I'm sure it's multifactorial. I'm sure they expected it to have challenges but they can't be okay with this record.

I DO think the young players are doing okay. Not fantastic. Not NHL ready. But they are generating offensive chances that haven't gone in. They've had lapses where vets haven't bailed them out. So you hope as time goes on they learn from it.

The part I think is pretty telling:

ALL The 18 year old first year pros are struggling. It's not one prospect failing, it's guys learning the rigors.
All of the 20-21 year olds/multi-year pros are borderline thriving/earning callups (except clague who is crapping the bed right now, but htat's a different story).

There's a LOT of nuance being mentioned and I know some people won't buy into it to various degrees--new coach, covid, etc.--but it really boils down to the typical development curve. 18 year olds going HAM in the AHL/NHL is extremely rare--and most of those mentioned popped in at the end of the season onto very strong, playoff-bound teams (rather than being asked to carry the water for a bottom feeder). Ours are hitting the pro wall. From an individual development perspective, I'm not really alarmed with those kids--but check back in with me at the end of the season, of course. And the older Kuparis of the world--as well as those who have already played pro against men in Fagemo, Bjornfot--are doing very well.

I'm not trying to oversimplify it but I think we're trying too hard to find a satisfactory explanation why our stud 18 year olds are struggling when ultimately it's MOST 18 years olds that struggle mightily vs men in NA.

Edit: but as Herby mentions above, it is alarming as far as environment creation goes. Getting blown up game after game worries me, no doubt. And those problems--individual development vs. team play--are obviously tied together more than a little bit.

 

[voxel]

Today, Byfield had two point bank (basically in the crease) shots that somehow didn't go in (one hit the post).

You guys last season had elite goaltending with Cal Petersen. This season... it's pretty fugly. Condors are offensively inept. Many of the goals (10 in two games!!!) I've seen in the Condors-Reign games shouldn't have gone in.

 

[funky]

One thing about Byfield and his very young age is if the NHL kicks off close to a normal start date next year (this fall) Byfield will be at about the same age as Stutzle was when he started the NHL this year. Byfield will also have a partial year playing in a league against top end young guys and men.

Byfield has a lot of work, a lot between the ears, a lot physical between now and then but it will be interesting to see where Byfield is at at the start of next year to where Stutzle was this year.

I think it’s a more even comparison even though I still expect Byfield to start his NHL career at a slower pace or trajectory than Stutzle

 

[Eagle Fang]

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the abswer is? There's Byfield and Kaliyev, whose only other option is the NHL. You don't think the AHL is the best spot for Turcotte (not saying it to be argumentative, just making the point of the youth).

Then you have Fagemo, Thomas, and Dudas who are also AHL rookies.

Then you have a blueline of Strand, Clague, and a bunch of underachievers (well, Moverare is injured).

In net, there's nobody who has taken the No. 1 spot. It's not like goaltending has been the reason they've lost, but they've yet to keep the team into it.

A rookie coach trying to implement the parent team's system, mixed with the above factors, is understandable. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but do we blame the coach? Do we blame Blake? Do we blame Seeley? Or something else?

I'm sure it's multifactorial. I'm sure they expected it to have challenges but they can't be okay with this record.

I DO think the young players are doing okay. Not fantastic. Not NHL ready. But they are generating offensive chances that haven't gone in. They've had lapses where vets haven't bailed them out. So you hope as time goes on they learn from it.

Being partially sarcastic here but if you held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a reason I'd say its coaching. The team is young but 1 win in 13 games is crazy... and at least imo, they are getting worse with each game.

Theres a ton of talent on the team but the problem seems to be they aren't playing as a team. I would think that reflects on the HC.

Open for debate though

 

[BringTheReign]

A few weeks ago I was moaning about the possibility of having to send Byfield and Kaliyev back to the OHL for a 25 game season.

I'm not wondering if it might be the best thing for them, mainly for their confidence.

Also, does anyone have any idea why they are so much worse in the season than they were in preseason? Weren't they almost undefeated in preseason?

 

[Fat Elvis]

One of the things I've noticed this season is how bad to mediocre the Vets have been for Ontario. Sutter is not good, Gaunce and Clague haven't played good, Durzi is poop. Most of the teams Ontario are playing have a good mix of Vets who have played well against the Reign. Our supposed "leadership" collective shit the bed throughout the game. I thought Alt, Sutter, Clague and Gaunce would help the 1st year players, but it hasn't been the case. The players making the biggest mistakes haven't overwhelmingly been the 1st year players. I think more blame can be thrown at the AHL vets more so than the kids.

 

[Vino]

One of the things I've noticed this season is how bad to mediocre the Vets have been for Ontario.

Mikey Eyssimont 13 GP, 1+2= 3 pts. I'm really dispointed, because I expected, that Eyssimont will score one point per game pace.

There is no veteran scorer like Martin Frk (or Mario Kempe or Matt Luff) was last year and that is a big problem. I really hope that they trade a veteran center, who can teach/show to the kids how to score in the AHL. I belive that Sutter is a good rolemodel, but he is definitely not a scorer/offensive player. Especilly Byfield needs now that (veteran guidance/help) - because in my mind he's now playing worse than earlier.

 

[Eagle Fang]

A few weeks ago I was moaning about the possibility of having to send Byfield and Kaliyev back to the OHL for a 25 game season.

I'm not wondering if it might be the best thing for them, mainly for their confidence.

Also, does anyone have any idea why they are so much worse in the season than they were in preseason? Weren't they almost undefeated in preseason?

Not gonna lie, I'm kind of starting to think that too... it's certainly a better league for their development given that they destroy the OHL, but man... 1-12 is nasty.

 

[Eagle Fang]

One of the things I've noticed this season is how bad to mediocre the Vets have been for Ontario. Sutter is not good, Gaunce and Clague haven't played good, Durzi is poop. Most of the teams Ontario are playing have a good mix of Vets who have played well against the Reign. Our supposed "leadership" collective shit the bed throughout the game. I thought Alt, Sutter, Clague and Gaunce would help the 1st year players, but it hasn't been the case. The players making the biggest mistakes haven't overwhelmingly been the 1st year players. I think more blame can be thrown at the AHL vets more so than the kids.

Very true as well. For this very reason it's why I think coaching may be a bigger issue than we think. As I said before though, open for debate.

 

[BigKing]

What's wild is that we can talk about how bad the vets have been but I feel like both Sutter and Byron wind up getting at least one great scoring chance each game and, honestly, Imama does not look out of place at all.

The blueline has been the biggest issue, IMO. I remember following Twitter for Durzi highlights during the Memorial Cup etc...and having high hopes but holy shit is he awful. Like, he isn't even good in the offensive zone: he is an all-around disaster. Clague has been trash since being sent down. Phillips is garbage and so is Gaunce. I've actually liked Strand's game but I did miss the first Bako game this weekend.

I seem to recall that Cal had to stand on his head all of the time in past seasons so porous defense might not be a new thing. Without a stud goalie back there, it is really ugly. Compounding it is that the forwards are the gang that couldn't shoot straight except for Fagemo but I think he has even failed on a penalty shot attempt.

As for the coaching...it is hard to say. The record is abysmal and the play seems to be getting worse. They let go a really good coach in Stothers though to bring in a guy that makes his money coaching high schoolers. So, like, how much does Management care about winning or is it more about making sure that the stud prospects are getting ice time in all situations? If it was about winning, there would be more of an AHL vet presence and Stothers would still be here.

 

[tbrown33]

What’s weird for me is watching these games and wishing we had Gravel.

 

[Eagle Fang]

What's wild is that we can talk about how bad the vets have been but I feel like both Sutter and Byron wind up getting at least one great scoring chance each game and, honestly, Imama does not look out of place at all.

The blueline has been the biggest issue, IMO. I remember following Twitter for Durzi highlights during the Memorial Cup etc...and having high hopes but holy shit is he awful. Like, he isn't even good in the offensive zone: he is an all-around disaster. Clague has been trash since being sent down. Phillips is garbage and so is Gaunce. I've actually liked Strand's game but I did miss the first Bako game this weekend.

I seem to recall that Cal had to stand on his head all of the time in past seasons so porous defense might not be a new thing. Without a stud goalie back there, it is really ugly. Compounding it is that the forwards are the gang that couldn't shoot straight except for Fagemo but I think he has even failed on a penalty shot attempt.

As for the coaching...it is hard to say. The record is abysmal and the play seems to be getting worse. They let go a really good coach in Stothers though to bring in a guy that makes his money coaching high schoolers. So, like, how much does Management care about winning or is it more about making sure that the stud prospects are getting ice time in all situations? If it was about winning, there would be more of an AHL vet presence and Stothers would still be here.

Very well said. I don't understand why they let Stothers go.

 

[Fishhead]

The guys that have gotten games in with the Kings looked good when they were here. Clague looked really good, Strand was very solid, Arty scored in his only game, none really looked out of place or overwhelmed. That screams structural problems in Ontario to me, especially on defense. I think Gaunce has actually looked OK, but Brickley and Alt aren't this bad. Something isn't working systemically back there. Byfield is also drawing tough assignments and is getting killed defensively. There isn't much support there.

I'm concerned about the coaching. It kind of reminds me of when the Kings were getting creamed with Stevens and he had no idea what to do, like he was over his head.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Guys play good in NHL.
Guys play like shit in AHL.
Players get worse every game.
Tons of talent

There are lots of variables but one common denominator. These guys are not getting coached up. They are fundamentally inept. They are not prepared. They quit.

I am afraid that these players do not believe in themselves. It appears like they expect to lose. The Reign are turning our guys into accepting losers and I'm not okay with it.

 

[All The Kings Men]

It's a fairly common observance that younger "developing" players look better at the NHL level than in the AHL (Kupari mentioned it himself and Jim Fox has referenced it recently) because the players around them are more experienced and "better"...

it stands to reason then that a team FULL of young players might look out of sync since none of them have the experience or chemistry that you might find at the NHL level.

Food for thought.