Olympic Hockey Refereeing: Part II (mod warning post #190)

[B Boarding]

The fact that this hasn't happened yet makes your point meaningless.

Would you try to buy an insurance AFTER the accident had happened? No, you buy it before, to prevent a situation from happening.
This is just common sense. EVERY other international sport act according to this principle. International hockey is the EXCEPTION here and it makes it look unprofessional and smells bush league a long way.
For instance, asking to have a Brazilian ref in a World Cup final between Spain and Brazil would be classified as one of the biggest jokes of all time. Even if the Brazilan refs were the best. No one would ever consider suggesting this because of the outrageous stupidity of it.

 

[Replacement*]

So, you think the same refs would have been used if Canada met Russia in the final?
(I am NOT trying to undermine you, I was one of those who said Best refs>Nationality, I am merely trying to understand what you are implying with your last sentence)

The post needs to be viewed properly as a paragraph and not just a sentence.

In other words in a Russian based Olympics where a Canada vs Russia final was expected the tournament used 1 Russian official and 12 Canadians. With no complaints from Russian federation, delegation, organizers, Putin, etc. With no suspicion about how that was going to play.

Conversely Forsbergs inference, suspicion, backstabbing, has been met with the ridicule it fairly deserves. Who is he to even speak to this aside from his grandiose bigger than life personality. His comments didn't even coincide with the Swedish players playing the game.

 

[SzabadosSavesTheDay]

Hi everyone, I'm new here, only making my 2nd post! Unlike most other Canadians, I actually would prefer NOT to have Canadian refs in a game involving Canadians. Think about it. There is a possibility that the refs, knowing what the media is saying, would try too hard to make themselves look unbiased by making more calls against Canadians. I think that`s why one of the broadcasters predicted that the first call would be against the Canadians. I notice too, when I watch other sports sometimes the broadcaster would criticize more against his own former team and give the opponent more compliments. Again, it`s to show that he isn`t trying to be a `homie`or whatever you call it. I trust refs for the most part but they are humans too, wanting to prove themselves and sometimes trying too hard to look unbiased could mean making more calls against your home country.

 

[LeafsNation75]

When it comes to refs being biased for their country the best example to use is from the 2002 Womens Gold Medal Game between Canada and the United States. The ref that night was American Stacey Livingston who called eight straight penalties on Canada, that in my opinion the worst thing I ever saw during a Hockey game and it was obvious she did everything possible for the United States to win that night.

 

[getwiththeprogram*]

When it comes to refs being biased for their country the best example to use is from the 2002 Womens Gold Medal Game between Canada and the United States. The ref that night was American Stacey Livingston who called eight straight penalties on Canada, that in my opinion the worst thing I ever saw during a Hockey game and it was obvious she did everything possible for the United States to win that night.

You never saw Viktor Dombrowski at work, did you? The Soviets were always in good hands when he was on the ice.

 

[getwiththeprogram*]

Hi everyone, I'm new here, only making my 2nd post! Unlike most other Canadians, I actually would prefer NOT to have Canadian refs in a game involving Canadians. Think about it. There is a possibility that the refs, knowing what the media is saying, would try too hard to make themselves look unbiased by making more calls against Canadians. I think that`s why one of the broadcasters predicted that the first call would be against the Canadians. I notice too, when I watch other sports sometimes the broadcaster would criticize more against his own former team and give the opponent more compliments. Again, it`s to show that he isn`t trying to be a `homie`or whatever you call it. I trust refs for the most part but they are humans too, wanting to prove themselves and sometimes trying too hard to look unbiased could mean making more calls against your home country.

This. The NHL is not the KHL. Kelly Sutherland is not Viktor Dombrowski or a host of other European officials. If he's perceived as favoring Canada, that's basically the end of his NHL career. It's called professionalism, which is why the swedes were in better hands with him on the ice than with most European referees.

Bottom line is, the Swedes wanted a built-in excuse for when they lost and the IIHF gave it to them.

 

[matsqq]

If KHL was the greatest league in the world would canadians then accept that 4 russians would be refs in a final between Russia and Canada.
I say definitely NOT.
You are hypocrites if you say yes to that question.

It's easy to talk trash of us europeans because we don't have 100% confidence in canadian refs but reverse this and you would scream out loud.

A hockey game contains thousands of situations and it's nearly impossible after a game to say that refs did a objective job.
it can take just one or two penalties at critical points if needed.
Like when Sweden played Finland in the semifinal and got 3 on 5 for nearly 2 minutes because Kronwall intererfered Selänne.
Do I think Canada would have gotten that penalty in that spot with 4 canadian refs.
No, I certainly don't. That was a tough penalty to take. Looked like a dive.

Also I would rather have a russian or finnish referee when Sweden plays Canada than 4 canadians even if they have 90% of the skill that the canadian refs have.

All you do is ridicule and trash talk, not for one second do you think about how other countries feel about this.
Why not use some american NHL refs, or KHL refs. I really hope that if they start a World Cup that they have neutral refs and not canadian refs.

The argument that NHL refs are the best, can easily be countered by taking the second best refs that are neutral.
Just like there are hockey players good enough to compete there are also refs from KHL and SHL that are close enough that it would work just fine.

 

[Davebo*]

If KHL was the greatest league in the world would canadians then accept that 4 russians would be refs in a final between Russia and Canada.
I say definitely NOT.
You are hypocrites if you say yes to that question.

Calling people hypocrites for a hypothetical situation - that will likely never arise. That's some interesting reasoning, son.

 

[matsqq]

Calling people hypocrites for a hypothetical situation - that will likely never arise. That's some interesting reasoning, son.

Yes, but hypothetical is the only way that YOU can understand the situation that WE are in.

And if you CAN'T or REFUSE to do that then I guess it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand.

And I think it's strange that only 1 out of 10 canadians in this thread seem to understand the situation that WE are in ...

 

[daver]

Yes, but hypothetical is the only way that YOU can understand the situation that WE are in.

And if you CAN'T or REFUSE to do that then I guess it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand.

And I think it's strange that only 1 out of 10 canadians in this thread seem to understand the situation that WE are in ...

As a Canadian, I take pride in the fact that Canadian refs are held in such high regard as to be given the job of reffing the most important intl games without a thought of them compromising their professional integrity. It is insulting to have their professionalism questioned.

The IIHF has decided that having experienced referees who have shown zero inclination to favour their country is better than having inexperienced referees who can affect the game with bad or inconsistent calls.

Don't like it, write the IIHF.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes, but hypothetical is the only way that YOU can understand the situation that WE are in.

And if you CAN'T or REFUSE to do that then I guess it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand.

And I think it's strange that only 1 out of 10 canadians in this thread seem to understand the situation that WE are in ...

The situation that you are in was that you watched Canadian referees call essentially a flawless gold medal game. Boo hoo.

 

[matsqq]

The situation that you are in was that you watched Canadian referees call essentially a flawless gold medal game. Boo hoo.

And that was ONE game . A game where Canada clearly needed no help.

Just to show you, here is another game where most Canadians still maintain that the referee was unbiased while most others seem to think it was a scandal of proportions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh4PtteLuY

So biased or unbiased is in the eyes of the beholder.

But it would be much better to use KHL refs or at least american NHL refs instead of canadian when Canada plays international tournaments to reduce the risk of bias ...

I can also add that I think that european refs might also be insulted by the fact that you assume that they will be taking bad decisions ...

And I will write IIHF ...

 

[Jussi]

If KHL was the greatest league in the world would canadians then accept that 4 russians would be refs in a final between Russia and Canada.
I say definitely NOT.
You are hypocrites if you say yes to that question.

It's easy to talk trash of us europeans because we don't have 100% confidence in canadian refs but reverse this and you would scream out loud.

A hockey game contains thousands of situations and it's nearly impossible after a game to say that refs did a objective job.
it can take just one or two penalties at critical points if needed.
Like when Sweden played Finland in the semifinal and got 3 on 5 for nearly 2 minutes because Kronwall intererfered Selänne.
Do I think Canada would have gotten that penalty in that spot with 4 canadian refs.
No, I certainly don't. That was a tough penalty to take. Looked like a dive.

Also I would rather have a russian or finnish referee when Sweden plays Canada than 4 canadians even if they have 90% of the skill that the canadian refs have.

All you do is ridicule and trash talk, not for one second do you think about how other countries feel about this.
Why not use some american NHL refs, or KHL refs. I really hope that if they start a World Cup that they have neutral refs and not canadian refs.

The argument that NHL refs are the best, can easily be countered by taking the second best refs that are neutral.
Just like there are hockey players good enough to compete there are also refs from KHL and SHL that are close enough that it would work just fine.

No, you wouldn't. There would be a huge decline. I've seen my fair share of those over the years. Those NHL refs would at least be consistent with their calls, not change the line after one period and not stop calling penalties completely in the 3rd.

 

[matsqq]

I respect your opinion even though I don't share it ! And Iv'e seen both KHL and SM-liiga.

 

[Jussi]

I respect your opinion even though I don't share it ! And Iv'e seen both KHL and SM-liiga.

I've seen enough of Russian refs over the years in international games plus I know the current "quality" of Finnish refs and the effed up system from which they come from to know they are much worse than NHL refs.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

And that was ONE game . A game where Canada clearly needed no help.

Just to show you, here is another game where most Canadians still maintain that the referee was unbiased while most others seem to think it was a scandal of proportions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh4PtteLuY

So biased or unbiased is in the eyes of the beholder.

But it would be much better to use KHL refs or at least american NHL refs instead of canadian when Canada plays international tournaments to reduce the risk of bias ...

I can also add that I think that european refs might also be insulted by the fact that you assume that they will be taking bad decisions ...

And I will write IIHF ...

I still get a chuckle that there was someone out there that was a sore enough of a loser to make such a video and also how many half wits think it is proof of something. The reffing in '87 was consistent with how NHL games were called in that era and it is not the reason the USSR lost. In every game there are calls that could go either way and making a video of all the ones you thought went against your team and none of those that went the other way and passing it off as proof is just silly.

In NA refs are expected to be honest, unbiased and behave in a professional manner which is why there is no problem in using them no matter who is playing. Some countries struggle greatly with cheating and corruption and I think any reasonable person would have concerns about using officials that may be expected to help their home countries team win. You can twist things however you like but it isn't going to change the truth.

 

[JackSlater]

And that was ONE game . A game where Canada clearly needed no help.

Just to show you, here is another game where most Canadians still maintain that the referee was unbiased while most others seem to think it was a scandal of proportions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCh4PtteLuY

So biased or unbiased is in the eyes of the beholder.

But it would be much better to use KHL refs or at least american NHL refs instead of canadian when Canada plays international tournaments to reduce the risk of bias ...

I can also add that I think that european refs might also be insulted by the fact that you assume that they will be taking bad decisions ...

And I will write IIHF ...

The reffing in 1987 was bad, yes. As was most reffing at the time unfortunately. If we look at the much more relevant Olympic gold medal games like 2002 or 2010 (when Canada may have "needed help") we can also see that the reffing was nearly perfect.

 

[modofan]

I still get a chuckle that there was someone out there that was a sore enough of a loser to make such a video and also how many half wits think it is proof of something. The reffing in '87 was consistent with how NHL games were called in that era and it is not the reason the USSR lost. In every game there are calls that could go either way and making a video of all the ones you thought went against your team and none of those that went the other way and passing it off as proof is just silly.

In NA refs are expected to be honest, unbiased and behave in a professional manner which is why there is no problem in using them no matter who is playing. Some countries struggle greatly with cheating and corruption and I think any reasonable person would have concerns about using officials that may be expected to help their home countries team win. You can twist things however you like but it isn't going to change the truth.

Do you really believe this is unique to NA? Then I really pity you. It's pointless to have a discussion with narrow-minded people...

 

[modofan]

I found this article interesting and I agree with most of it. They seem to mix up the former hockey player Peter Forsberg with Peter Forsberg who works at the Swedish hockey federation.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/sochi2014/hockey/2014/02/22/canadian_refs_for_mens_hockey_game_have_swedes_angry_already.html

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Do you really believe this is unique to NA? Then I really pity you. It's pointless to have a discussion with narrow-minded people...

I never said that and I can pretty much guarantee I know more about Sweden than you do about Canada, or the rest of the world for that matter. I'd say you are the narrow minded one.

 

[modofan]

I never said that and I can pretty much guarantee I know more about Sweden than you do about Canada, or the rest of the world for that matter. I'd say you are the narrow minded one.

This is becoming more and more childish... You can "pretty much guarantee" that you know more about the world than me? How is that?

I'm born in the 60th so I'm probably twice your age... Feels like I'm arguing with a 12-year old boy...

 

[daver]

Do you really believe this is unique to NA? Then I really pity you. It's pointless to have a discussion with narrow-minded people...

The other poster went a bit too far but the point remains that there does not appear to be an issue with the IIHF or the players. That having an experienced ref that is less likely to affect the outcome of the game outweighs the optics.

There hasn't been any indications it's not working.

 

[modofan]

The other poster went a bit too far but the point remains that there does not appear to be an issue with the IIHF or the players. That having an experienced ref that is less likely to affect the outcome of the game outweighs the optics.

There hasn't been any indications it's not working.

I'm certain it is an issue for IIHF. They can't be deaf and blind to the criticism they received, but it's obviously a choice between pest and cholera. There are reasons why FIFA forbids this kinds of setups (and it has nothing to do with the referees not being professional) and the same reasons also apply to hockey.

I agree with the following text from the article linked above:

"Still, if it’s the right decision, it does shed a harsh light on hockey’s small, small world. This wouldn’t happen in, say, the FIFA World Cup, where regulations prohibit officials from calling games involving their home nation or even their home nation’s group. The problem is that hockey doesn’t possess a pool of international referees deep enough to maintain such a broad-based system. Since the NHL began coming to the Olympics in 1998, the league and its players have insisted on the importance of having the world’s best officials — i.e. NHL officials — working key best-on-best games, no matter that the NHL’s officiating staff is entirely of North American origin." ​

The real question is what needs to be done to overcome this problem.

 

[An Argument For]

I'm certain it is an issue for IIHF. They can't be deaf and blind to the criticism they received, but it's obviously a choice between pest and cholera. There are reasons why FIFA forbids this kinds of setups (and it has nothing to do with the referees not being professional) and the same reasons also apply to hockey.

I agree with the following text from the article linked above:

"Still, if it’s the right decision, it does shed a harsh light on hockey’s small, small world. This wouldn’t happen in, say, the FIFA World Cup, where regulations prohibit officials from calling games involving their home nation or even their home nation’s group. The problem is that hockey doesn’t possess a pool of international referees deep enough to maintain such a broad-based system. Since the NHL began coming to the Olympics in 1998, the league and its players have insisted on the importance of having the world’s best officials — i.e. NHL officials — working key best-on-best games, no matter that the NHL’s officiating staff is entirely of North American origin." ​

The real question is what needs to be done to overcome this problem.

Well the rest of the world is going to need to produce more referees. According to a 2013 Survey, the IIHF states that there are about 70,000 referees in member countries and about 55,000 of them are North American. If this is something the IIHF wants to address it needs to take it upon itself to create a referee development program where refs from around the world can be selected, trained, evaluated and ultimately given some experience working in the North America. Even if it's just AHL or NHL pre-season games. There are going to be union obstacles here though.

 

[daver]

I'm certain it is an issue for IIHF. They can't be deaf and blind to the criticism they received, but it's obviously a choice between pest and cholera. There are reasons why FIFA forbids this kinds of setups (and it has nothing to do with the referees not being professional) and the same reasons also apply to hockey.

I agree with the following text from the article linked above:

"Still, if it’s the right decision, it does shed a harsh light on hockey’s small, small world. This wouldn’t happen in, say, the FIFA World Cup, where regulations prohibit officials from calling games involving their home nation or even their home nation’s group. The problem is that hockey doesn’t possess a pool of international referees deep enough to maintain such a broad-based system. Since the NHL began coming to the Olympics in 1998, the league and its players have insisted on the importance of having the world’s best officials — i.e. NHL officials — working key best-on-best games, no matter that the NHL’s officiating staff is entirely of North American origin." ​

The real question is what needs to be done to overcome this problem.

What problem? Are the players against it? Has there been examples of bias? I would be shocked if an NHL ref put his professional reputation at stake to help his home country.

Seems like this a non-issue.