Olympics: Olympic Boxing

[Albatros]

Kind of pointless to take an arbitrarily governed organization to the CAS after the tournament is already over though.

 

[Jussi]

You've taken this so far from what the discussion is about.

This is about whether this person should be allowed to participate in a women's boxing match at the Olympics.

I think it's actually quite sad and revealing that people will go to such lengths in an attempt to bolster their favorite causes to back a dude who is beating up women. It sounds so wrong on its face. Why can't everyone just agree that the obvious is wrong?

Just in case it was not clear to you, the only people to have claimed she had failed a gender test, are the corrupt president of IBA and it's corrupt Hungarian general secretary. There is no evidence of a test taking place, no documentation of any kind. Or do you think this person is the kind, whose word you'll take on the matter:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1819014467876761913

I repeat, there is zero factual evidence of Khelif being a man. I also repeat, HER participation was not an issue at the Tokyo Olympics, or the 2022 World Championships. It wasn't until the 2023 one, after she defeated a Russian boxer, that the corrupt Russian president of IBA made it an issue.

 

[Albatros]

Just in case it was not clear to you, the only people to have claimed she had failed a gender test, are the corrupt president of IBA and it's corrupt Hungarian general secretary. There is no evidence of a test taking place, no documentation of any kind.

Also worth noting that the IBA first added the requirement to their own rules in May 2023 only after disqualifying Khelif and Lin at the World Championships in March.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yeah, I mean the Algerian boxer was literally abandoned by her father because she started boxing.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Jussi]

Are you sure about that?

Yeah, that was false news. He's very supportive of HER.

---------------------------

 

[Jussi]

Finnish quarterfinalist Pihla Kaivo-oja is refusing IBA prize money:

Pihla Kaivo-oja kieltäytyy huimasta palkintopotista: ”Putinin rahoja ei ruveta ottamaan”

Kansainvälinen nyrkkeilyliitto IBA hämmentää soppaa palkintorahoillaan.

www.is.fi

 

[Johnny Rifle]

First off, the IBA is a corrupt organization just like the rest of the alphabet soup that is boxing. Therefore, we must take everything they say with a serious grain of salt.

However, I can't help but notice that the two boxers in question are just so much more powerful than their opponents that it doesn't compute that they could be so unnaturally strong as a natural woman with a full set of XX chromosomes.

However, why such secrecy by the IOC? If they have proof that they are women no different than the average athlete then why not say so, and if they are intersex to some degree and have XY chromosomes why not just say that? I get privacy arguments but those kind go out the window when you are an athlete competing at the highest levels of competition.

That silence makes me believe that they are holders of some XY chromosomes in their DNA, which makes the argument more scientific in basis than political, therefore I think we can have a civil discussion without getting moderated. Does the mere presence of a Y chromosome make one a man, even if the person in question has female sex organs, raised a female, and treated like a girl for all of this person's life?

I'm assuming facts not in evidence, yes, but let's assume that the two boxers do have that Y chromosome, should that make them ineligible for women's sports? I'd have to say yes, not because it is fair to those two boxers, but patently unfair and unsafe for the hundreds of thousand of women that train to be boxers and dream of Olympic glory. It's also patently unsafe, XY chromosome holders could develop a punch that can kill or seriously injure a XX boxer. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and unfortunately, those two boxers will just have to train for their own validation and find success in another field.

The ironic thing is that in the 70s and 80s before DNA testing female athletes from certain countries had to undergo a humiliating physical just to prove they were women by stripping off in front of a panel. I'm assuming the two boxers could pass that test. However, with DNA testing, we have a better understanding of sex and biology, and the two in question are just unique individuals that don't fit neatly in a category.

All that being said, the two boxers should be excluded, not because they are doing anything wrong or immoral, but because they are unlucky to be born with Y DNA in their cells that gives them unnatural strength and endurance. That also means that they are unlikely to bear children, a terrible result of their unique DNA makeup. That doesn't mean they can't continue their lives living as women, they just can't compete in formal athletic events.

That being said, the IOC should be ashamed of themselves, they should have taken a stand of some sort and at least have a scientific standard that can be applied fairly and evenly to every boxer who wanted to compete. I don't want to hear "they're women because we say they are," I want to hear they met specific standards that have been agreed to by the various boxing federations. If the two women in question meet that standard, they can compete. If not, then they can't. It should be that simple.

 

[Albatros]

Indeed by default such medical information is not public. It's also not the business of the IOC as it's not in the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit rules and therefore does not affect eligibility. The athletes themselves are free to talk about their condition if they so wish.

Given that these boxers don't have unusually high KO ratios and have lost a number of fights against other female athletes I don't really get the claim that their presence in competitions would be dangerous.

Top boxers at these Olympics in the relevant weight classes 57 kg and 66 kg (W L & KO %):

57 kg
Lin Yu-ting 42 14 2.38
Esra Yıldız 28 25 3.57
Nesthy Petecio 79 28 5.06
Julia Szeremeta 32 9 0.00
Svetlana Staneva 58 17 10.34
Jucielen Romeu 31 15 6.45
Xu Zichun 15 7 0.00
Ashleyann Lozada 28 10 7.14

66 kg
Imane Khelif 38 9 13.16
Janjaem Suwannapheng 14 5 7.14
Yang Liu 24 7 0.00
Chen Nien-chin 44 13 9.09
Busenaz Sürmeneli 47 8 12.77
Navbakhor Khamidova 17 9 0.00
Luca Hámori 18 14 16.67
Oshin Derieuw 19 10 0.00

I wouldn't say that either Lin or Khelif stands out at all beyond being good at boxing, if anything their record is consistent with other contenders.

(Besides the global pool of competitive boxers is rather several hundred per weight class rather than in hundreds of thousands.)

 

[Johnny Rifle]

All great points.

Doing a bit more research, it appears that the only qualification to be considered as a boxer in the women’s category by the IOC is to have FEMALE stamped on your passport.

That’s a terrible standard by any means, since every country has a different standard for what goes on a passport. Boxers undergo every conceivable medical evaluation, why would a simple DNA test not be one of them?

Also, the fact that the women in question have average records and average knockout rates for top-tier competitions is irrelevant, the danger lies in their unusual strength. It only takes one lucky punch to end a career, and that is much more likely if you have a Y chromosome.

Let the women in question keep their medals, as they did qualify under the current IOC criteria.and earned them in the ring. However, change the standards for next time to something more scientific.

 

[Albatros]

There the problem is that there's no international boxing federation recognized by the IOC, so the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit as the responsible entity could not really go beyond general consensus when setting up the competition rules. If boxing was to remain an Olympic sport in 2028 and for example World Boxing would gain recognition as the international federation, then they would be free to introduce rules that go beyond that consensus, obviously within the confines of the Olympic Charter, the Swiss law etc.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

Thanks for the insight albatros.

 

[GKJ]

All great points.

Doing a bit more research, it appears that the only qualification to be considered as a boxer in the women’s category by the IOC is to have FEMALE stamped on your passport.

That’s a terrible standard by any means, since every country has a different standard for what goes on a passport. Boxers undergo every conceivable medical evaluation, why would a simple DNA test not be one of them?

Also, the fact that the women in question have average records and average knockout rates for top-tier competitions is irrelevant, the danger lies in their unusual strength. It only takes one lucky punch to end a career, and that is much more likely if you have a Y chromosome.

Let the women in question keep their medals, as they did qualify under the current IOC criteria.and earned them in the ring. However, change the standards for next time to something more scientific.

If unusual strength was evident, she’d be knocking everyone into the 12th row.

 

[uncleben]

First off, the IBA is a corrupt organization just like the rest of the alphabet soup that is boxing. Therefore, we must take everything they say with a serious grain of salt.

However, I can't help but notice that the two boxers in question are just so much more powerful than their opponents that it doesn't compute that they could be so unnaturally strong as a natural woman with a full set of XX chromosomes.

However, why such secrecy by the IOC? If they have proof that they are women no different than the average athlete then why not say so, and if they are intersex to some degree and have XY chromosomes why not just say that? I get privacy arguments but those kind go out the window when you are an athlete competing at the highest levels of competition.

That silence makes me believe that they are holders of some XY chromosomes in their DNA, which makes the argument more scientific in basis than political, therefore I think we can have a civil discussion without getting moderated. Does the mere presence of a Y chromosome make one a man, even if the person in question has female sex organs, raised a female, and treated like a girl for all of this person's life?

I'm assuming facts not in evidence, yes, but let's assume that the two boxers do have that Y chromosome, should that make them ineligible for women's sports? I'd have to say yes, not because it is fair to those two boxers, but patently unfair and unsafe for the hundreds of thousand of women that train to be boxers and dream of Olympic glory. It's also patently unsafe, XY chromosome holders could develop a punch that can kill or seriously injure a XX boxer. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and unfortunately, those two boxers will just have to train for their own validation and find success in another field.

The ironic thing is that in the 70s and 80s before DNA testing female athletes from certain countries had to undergo a humiliating physical just to prove they were women by stripping off in front of a panel. I'm assuming the two boxers could pass that test. However, with DNA testing, we have a better understanding of sex and biology, and the two in question are just unique individuals that don't fit neatly in a category.

All that being said, the two boxers should be excluded, not because they are doing anything wrong or immoral, but because they are unlucky to be born with Y DNA in their cells that gives them unnatural strength and endurance. That also means that they are unlikely to bear children, a terrible result of their unique DNA makeup. That doesn't mean they can't continue their lives living as women, they just can't compete in formal athletic events.

That being said, the IOC should be ashamed of themselves, they should have taken a stand of some sort and at least have a scientific standard that can be applied fairly and evenly to every boxer who wanted to compete. I don't want to hear "they're women because we say they are," I want to hear they met specific standards that have been agreed to by the various boxing federations. If the two women in question meet that standard, they can compete. If not, then they can't. It should be that simple.

IOC has zero obligation to publicize player's personal medical information, not matter how badly some people might want it.


Furthermore, XX and XY sex determination is, frankly, a construct that we have created as humans to help in our understanding of the natural world, based on common observable patterns. But nature doesn't care about our definitions, and there will always be exceptions or examples that don't fit into our boxes.
To that point, it is possible to be XX Male or XY Female; it is possible to have only 1 sex chromosome or to possess 3 sex chromosomes.

While there is no proof that Khelif has a Y chromosome, the rare circumstances that allow that would also not align with her being an Olympic level athlete, and/or at least not having any sort of advantage.

An XXY "male" individual with Klinefelter syndrome is going to possess male genitalia, and struggle (from an athletic perspective) with reduced muscle mass, tone, and strength, brittler bones, excess fat deposits and/or breast tissue, less energy, and reduced coordination. They will likely suffer delays in motor skills early on in their life and require physical therapy, and they will likely be taller than average and possess round, youthful features in their body and face.
An XY "female" individual with Swyer syndrome is going to possess female genitalia. This is due to the SRY gene not initiating the development of testes in the fetus, which in turn means the fetus will develop with female reproductive organs. What this also means is that the body will not produce the elevated T levels or AMH found in a cis-XY male. An individual with Swyer's XY will likely not produce breast tissue and will likely have narrower hips, but will have a vulva and uterus. This is the syndrome most commonly attributed to Khelif but it is completely unsubstantiated, and, even if true, would not give her any inherent biological advantage over a cis-XX female.

And none of this even touches on the natural variety of testosterone levels within sex-groups or even how they can naturally change within individuals, nor the difference between the body's (in)ability to use free testosterone or bound testosterone as an advantage...



I appreciate your attempt to keep it scientific, and not political.
The reality is though, our colloquial acceptance of XX vs XY works because it works most of the time, but there are still limits to that definition, and like almost everything in life, there is more nuance and grey area to the whole discussion. The truth is there is no direct linear connection between any of chromosomes, sex, gender, hormone levels, or athletic ability. Patterns and correlations, sure, sometimes pretty strong even, but there are still other underlying factors that can waylay those correlations, or that many people just don't know about.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

I appreciate your attempt to keep it scientific, and not political.
The reality is though, our colloquial acceptance of XX vs XY works because it works most of the time, but there are still limits to that definition, and like almost everything in life, there is more nuance and grey area to the whole discussion. The truth is there is no direct linear connection between any of chromosomes, sex, gender, hormone levels, or athletic ability. Patterns and correlations, sure, sometimes pretty strong even, but there are still other underlying factors that can waylay those correlations, or that many people just don't know about.

I appreciate the information, we certainly know a lot about sex and genetics but there is much more research to be done.

However, perception always trumps reality, and watching Khelif fight she just looks too powerful and male-like to be competing against even the best women Olympic boxers.

If you look at Serena Williams for instance, she is probably the best example of a powerful, strong woman. However, there is no question at all she is all woman even though she clearly stronger than her competitors. Khelif looks and fights so well and her body is so trim and male-like that it just doesn’t seem fair, the eye-test just doesn’t work.

It also doesn’t seem fair that someone can be born with girl parts, raised as a girl, yet be forced out of athletic competitions because she was born with a medical condition that MIGHT gives her an advantage over “normal” women.

Such is life. Thanks for a classy discussion.

 

[uncleben]

I appreciate the information, we certainly know a lot about sex and genetics but there is much more research to be done.

However, perception always trumps reality, and watching Khelif fight she just looks too powerful and male-like to be competing against even the best women Olympic boxers.

If you look at Serena Williams for instance, she is probably the best example of a powerful, strong woman. However, there is no question at all she is all woman even though she clearly stronger than her competitors. Khelif looks and fights so well and her body is so trim and male-like that it just doesn’t seem fair, the eye-test just doesn’t work.

It also doesn’t seem fair that someone can be born with girl parts, raised as a girl, yet be forced out of athletic competitions because she was born with a medical condition that MIGHT gives her an advantage over “normal” women.

Such is life. Thanks for a classy discussion.

Unfortunately, Serena Williams did have to deal with that most of her career. She's a little bit more of a legend and icon now that she's done, but she was constantly called manly, masculine, and had her biology questioned because of her power and muscle.
[1] [2] [3]

And we have to be careful about eye tests.
Holly Holm has a 32-3-3 boxing record and is noted for her powerful strikes and domination in the ring.
Ronda Rousey went on an impressive 12-0 start to MMA and had a grip that was unparalleled.
They didn't just compete, they dominated, stronger than their competitors, but looked more traditionally feminine doing so.

 

[TheBeard]

For all those saying She's going to kill someone in the ring, she hasn't done it so far in like 50 fights.

IOC has zero obligation to publicize player's personal medical information, not matter how badly some people might want it.

Honestly, it seems to be mostly the social media/twitter echo chamber out for blood. Most people don't really care one way or another.

 

[PCSPounder]

If unusual strength was evident, she’d be knocking everyone into the 12th row.

Which is to say that Khelif has traditionally been a technical boxer, not a power boxer. Clearly she’s improved from her last games.

Anyway… Bruce Arthur: Boxing group sells its side of gender controversy at the Olympics. Instead, it was humiliated

 

[Jussi]

Which is to say that Khelif has traditionally been a technical boxer, not a power boxer. Clearly she’s improved from her last games.

Anyway… Bruce Arthur: Boxing group sells its side of gender controversy at the Olympics. Instead, it was humiliated

Kremlev also said Khelif had high testosterone. Five days ago, the IBA had said the test they administered to Khelif and Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting were not testosterone tests.

No medical proof was offered, though the test results had previously been leaked to an independent journalist who was recently named the IBA’s journalist of the year. Martelli spoke about the worry that a female boxer could be killed fighting a man, but could not explain why the two boxers were allowed to fight for over a year before the IBA changed its own rules to exclude them; nor how the two angular-power-light punchers only combined for seven knockouts in a combined 107 matches.

What a clown show. Khelif should sue the IBA but because it's mostly a Russian organization, fat chance of them showing up.

 

[Jussi]

Slava Ukraini!

 

[Jussi]

From the Finnish broadcaster Yle's story:

Roumeyssa Moussaoui tuli otteluun siskonsa Sarahin kanssa ja kertoi Reutersille, että hän katsoi ensimmäistä kertaa nyrkkeilyä, mutta halusi tulla tukemaan Khelifiä.

– Kun meistä yhtä vastaan hyökätään, meitä kaikkia vastaan hyökätään, hän totesi.

"Roymessa Moussaoui had come to the match with sister Sarah and told Reuters that it was the first time watching boxing but wnated to come supprot Khelif. "When you attack one of us, you attack all of us."

Samaa mieltä oli myös Houria Benbetka, joka tuli katsomaan ottelua miehensä kanssa.

– Tulin kannustamaan häntä, koska häntä kohdeltiin huonosti. Ja koska hän on nainen. Hän on algerialainen nainen, ja algerialaiset naiset tappelevat hiljaa, ja he näyttävät suuttumuksensa, kun heidän yli kävellään, Benbetka sanoi.

"Similar thoughts came from Houria Benbetka, who had come to watch the match with her husband.

- I came to support her, because she had been treated poorly. And because she is a woman. She's an Algerian woman and Algerian women fight quietly and show their anger when they are being walked over, Benbetka said."

 

[Albatros]

That was properly fierce as far as Olympic boxing goes, even the ref had quite a bit of blood on him. Almost looked more like a hockey fight at times.

 

[Hasbro]

For all those saying She's going to kill someone in the ring, she hasn't done it so far in like 50 fights.

Men in the same weight class occasionally do that very thing.

 

[uncleben]

Men in the same weight class occasionally do that very thing.

Yeah, concerned about some one getting injured bc one athlete is naturally stronger... Some people need to do some research on CTEs and take an issue with that sport as a whole if that is their concern

 

[Albatros]

Or just watch the final. Strength was like the least decisive factor in a fight that physically came down to reach and mobility.

 

[Hasbro]

Yeah, concerned about some one getting injured bc one athlete is naturally stronger... Some people need to do some research on CTEs and take an issue with that sport as a whole if that is their concern

I watched Ray Mancini kill Duk Koo Kim in the ring when I was a kid.