Oilers hire Stan Bowman as GM & EVP of Hockey Ops

[Three On Zero]

That Beach could or would sue isn’t false.
Bowman can certainly call the police while having no actual evidence of a crime.
It would in Beach’s eyes tarnish his career, which is why he didn’t go public in the 1st place. Once he was outed (if you’re calling police, you’re naming names) Beach’s 1st call would have been a lawyer.

You said

“He cannot LEGALLY do anything without the players permission.
You call the cops and file a report saying person x was molested by person y and person x is sueing you and your organization for millions.”

And now you just reply with “That Beach could or would sue isn’t false.”


You seem to be getting your facts mixed up which leads me to believe you have no experience with these types of situations and are just giving false informations to others

 

[Crow]

You said

“He cannot LEGALLY do anything without the players permission.
You call the cops and file a report saying person x was molested by person y and person x is sueing you and your organization for millions.”

And now you just reply with “That Beach could or would sue isn’t false.”


You seem to be getting your facts mixed up which leads me to believe you have no experience with these types of situations and are just giving false informations to others

I think he is trying to say there would be numerous legal issues with doing that, not that it’s illegal criminally.

 

[Saltcreek]

That’s false.

Legally he is allowed to file a formal complaint or call in with a concern that the police can investigate. Although that is quite an extreme measure for these types of situations.

I have personally witnessed a person life almost destroyed by this scenario. A third party reported that another employee was sexually assaulted by another co-worker. HR immediately suspended said person and called the police, turned out the person who filed the report lied and was acting out of jealousy.

A lot of people here do not understand how these matters work in a corporation. If I were to report third hand a suspected sexual assault case to HR I would not be informed of the investigation or outcome even if I asked. Once the matter is with HR then my involvement in the matter is effectively done outside them taking my statement.

 

[JPT]

I have personally witnessed a person life almost destroyed by this scenario. A third party reported that another employee was sexually assaulted by another co-worker. HR immediately suspended said person and called the police, turned out the person who filed the report lied and was acting out of jealousy.

A lot of people here do not understand how these matters work in a corporation. If I were to report third hand a suspected sexual assault case to HR I would not be informed of the investigation or outcome even if I asked. Once the matter is with HR then my involvement in the matter is effectively done outside them taking my statement.

Ok so if that's how it works in a corporation, why did the NHL (a corporation) suspend people over it, and why did Bowman (the general manager of a "corporation") fess up to not having done enough?

Also false accusations are relatively rare. Somewhere between 92% and 98% of sexual assault allegations turn out to be true or not provably false, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I do feel bad for the people of Edmonton they have suffered

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I have personally witnessed a person life almost destroyed by this scenario. A third party reported that another employee was sexually assaulted by another co-worker. HR immediately suspended said person and called the police, turned out the person who filed the report lied and was acting out of jealousy.

A lot of people here do not understand how these matters work in a corporation. If I were to report third hand a suspected sexual assault case to HR I would not be informed of the investigation or outcome even if I asked. Once the matter is with HR then my involvement in the matter is effectively done outside them taking my statement.

Ah yes the double excuse of false accusations and “that’s not how it works.”

This involved one of General Manager Stan Bowman’s own coaches potentially sexually assaulting one of his players.

This wasn’t Karen from accounting saying that the guy in the cubicle next to her assaulted someone because she was mad he didn’t clean his leftovers out of the fridge.

Yes there should have been an immediate investigation but the narrative that he did what he was supposed to and was naively in the dark is total bullshit. The Blackhawks wanted it to go away and it did for over a decade, in part because of the actions and inactions of Stan Bowman.

 

[Yuke]

What are you even talking about? Who said everyone would know before me? Who said no one trusts me? Take a deep breath and use your head.

Do you know how many sexual harassment cases I've had to deal with in the last 20 years? You'd have to take your shoes off to count them. I've been on more training courses than I care to remember. Do you know what all of them don't mention??? Not bothering with it for a couple of weeks because you have an important Board Meeting/Playoffs coming up.

Of course, you involve HR; that's the first thing you do. They do the ground work. I've seen everything from "he drew a penis on my whiteboard" to "I was taken advantage of at the Christmas party." One of those scenarios was taken a lot more seriously than another. Can you guess which one? The investigation took about a day to conclude; the person was put on administrative leave until things went through our lawyers. As an American company, you can imagine the blowback from lawsuits if you get it wrong.

The point was that the individual was walked out of the office that day, not three weeks later. That's why my staff trusts me. I do the right thing, unlike Chicago Management, including Bowman.

"HugginThePost said:
This is such a bad take.

As mentioned, I have a lot of experience as the "boss" of a company of about 200 people. That's twice the size of an average NHL team.

Nothing happens in a company that size without everyone knowing about it within hours. If one of my managers came to me about a sexual assault against another employee, I can guarantee you everyone else knew."

-Did I misread this? If your manager came to you and everyone else already knew, is it wrong to assume you are the last one to know.

 

[brentashton]

I do feel bad for the people of Edmonton they have suffered

Thankfully not as long as Toronto has though.

 

[jackjohnson]

Stan Bowman was really terrible in his last few years in Chicago. So aside from being a jerk, his GM skills arent great as he made bad trades. Edmonton hired the wrong guy which makes me happy as a rival fan. Cant wait to see him trade Hyman for and old and injury prone Stone. Maybe Vegas could pull a fast one on Bowman

 

[67 others]

Ok so if that's how it works in a corporation, why did the NHL (a corporation) suspend people over it, and why did Bowman (the general manager of a "corporation") fess up to not having done enough?

Also false accusations are relatively rare. Somewhere between 92% and 98% of sexual assault allegations turn out to be true or not provably false, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.

"Not probably false' covers a lot of ground considering only 12% of the cases end up with a conviction. Therefore, 88% of cases were "we are not sure. Didn't have enough evidence for conviction"

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Hope that POS runs their org into the ground

 

[FiveTacos]

"Not probably false' covers a lot of ground considering only 12% of the cases end up with a conviction. Therefore, 88% of cases were "we are not sure. Didn't have enough evidence for conviction"

Standard for conviction is one thing. Standard for "this guy is very likely a predator and we need to get him the hell out of our organization and let people know why so he has a harder time victimizing others" is another ... you don't need a conviction by a jury of peers to have enough evidence to fire someone (and in an industry like hockey, to publicly out someone as dangerous). But you do need to make at least some effort to find out. As has been repeatedly pointed out by Bowman apologists, the Hawks are not law enforcement ... but it also means they didn't need to have him dead to rights legally to decide to take action.

Investigating and THEN determining you don't have sufficient info to take action would have been one thing. Investigating and finding sufficient evidence of wrongdoing followed by, "He's being let go because he assaulted another employee who wishes to remain anonymous at this time," would have been a perfectly good response, even without calling in the police.

"We can investigate, or you can go on your merry way and we'll pretend nothing happened, and we don't care if you continue to victimize others" however is not acceptable to anyone who takes sexual assault seriously. I think it's crazy there's even a few fans who think that's okay, which can only lead me to believe either they don't take sexual assault seriously, or they'll literally defend anything wrt their team.

When the guy resigned instead of accepting an investigation, only a complete moron would think he was likely innocent. I don't think those guys are morons, so my only conclusion can be that they didn't really care if he was victimizing more people, so long as it was somewhere else. Which makes them ... well, let's just say not good people.

And here's the thing, if you wanna say hey I like the hire from a hockey perspective and I really don't care about anything that isn't directly tied to on ice performance, if they win games/Cups I'm fine with whoever and whatever ... you know what, I could at least respect that honesty. I mean, it's not like we really know any of these guys, right? Fandom is to some extent a pretty superficial thing, we get fired up and emotionally invested in a for-profit entertainment product, from corporations who see us as cash flow. So maybe you really don't care what he did. If that's just how you want to approach it, I can understand it even if that's not how my fandom would work for my team. But to try and argue that these former Hawks douches weren't actually being douches, that ain't gonna fly.

 

[PaulD]

There’s a difference between investigation and police investigation. The Blackhawks should have conducted an investigation, their own HR dept guidelines states exactly that, and the Jenner and Block report states that that lack of an investigation is what the Hawks management group did wrong. But that’s different from a police investigation. A police investigation should NOT have been requested by the Hawks without approval by the victim.


Why would you put in quotes something no one has ever said? Or atleast not the person you are speaking to.

because he is "that guy"

 

[Soundwave]

I still think it's absurd for a GM to some how be in charge of a sexual assault investigation. That is way beyond their training or expertise. That should never happen, even today if something like this occurred, the correct chain of responsibility is the coaching staff/GM if they know something report up to the team president and make sure he is aware of the situation.

From that point on, the team president and his superiors on up to ownership in conjunction with the human resources/HR department and relevant in organization counseling division(s) should take over 100%. Not 80%, not 90%, 100%. And if the alleged victim at that point is willing to involve the police, the police should certainly be involved at that point.

The only point the GM or anyone below that should be involved in such a situation from that point on is if they have some relevant information to the case, ie: they were present at a party where something occurred later on and can provide some insight. If not, that should be the end of it from their end.

The Hawks president, McDonagh was informed and told the hockey staff (GM/asst GM/etc.) that he would handle it. McDonagh ran the Blackhawks reportedly with an iron fist and controlled just about everything too. That was actually to that point the correct way to handle the situation.

He and anyone on up from him is the one that IMO primarily failed. He said he would handle the situation and in the chain of command it's correct that he is the one that should have been handling it alongside the HR department of the Hawks. There shouldn't be ambiguity on this stuff either, it should be crystal clear how these things are handled and who does what, not "well maybe this could have been done instead".

 

[JPT]

"Not probably false' covers a lot of ground considering only 12% of the cases end up with a conviction. Therefore, 88% of cases were "we are not sure. Didn't have enough evidence for conviction.

That's one way to interpret what I said, though it requires the assumption that every true accusation results in charges, another assumption that the case is competently handled, and you have to ignore glaring flaws in the criminal punishment system that 1) has a huge backlog in rape kit analysis, and 2) has shown an inability to protect those who come forward. In other words, you drew an incorrect conclusion due to having a severely lacking understanding of the realities of these types of cases.

 

[Soundwave]

Stan Bowman was really terrible in his last few years in Chicago. So aside from being a jerk, his GM skills arent great as he made bad trades. Edmonton hired the wrong guy which makes me happy as a rival fan. Cant wait to see him trade Hyman for and old and injury prone Stone. Maybe Vegas could pull a fast one on Bowman

I wouldn't hold my breath as Jeff Jackson is still running the show and has said he will be involved in trades and things of that sort going forward.

 

[Three On Zero]

Ok so if that's how it works in a corporation, why did the NHL (a corporation) suspend people over it, and why did Bowman (the general manager of a "corporation") fess up to not having done enough?

Also false accusations are relatively rare. Somewhere between 92% and 98% of sexual assault allegations turn out to be true or not provably false, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.

That’s not how it typically works. Investigations typically take place prior to suspension due to trying to find validity in the claims. At worst employees are typically given leave without pay during the investigation process.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I wouldn't hold my breath as Jeff Jackson is still running the show and has said he will be involved in trades and things of that sort going forward.

So Jackson hired a tainted figure to only be a figurehead and travel on the road with the team so he can stay at home, that's very lazy and dumb.

 

[Three On Zero]

Stan Bowman was really terrible in his last few years in Chicago. So aside from being a jerk, his GM skills arent great as he made bad trades. Edmonton hired the wrong guy which makes me happy as a rival fan. Cant wait to see him trade Hyman for and old and injury prone Stone. Maybe Vegas could pull a fast one on Bowman

Barring Draisiatl leaving, Edmontons core is more or less set. All Bowman has to do is continue to surround them with adequate depth signings.

Bowman could likely get his name on the cup again without lifting a single finger.

 

[JPT]

Barring Draisiatl leaving, Edmontons core is more or less set. All Bowman has to do is continue to surround them with adequate depth signings.

Bowman could likely get his name on the cup again without lifting a single finger.

He's definitely experienced in that.

 

[Three On Zero]

He's definitely experienced in that.

 

[Soundwave]

So Jackson hired a tainted figure to only be a figurehead and travel on the road with the team so he can stay at home, that's very lazy and dumb.

Jackson has said he can't do the day to day GM travel with the team and stuff like that because it wouldn't work for his family. That's not "lazy", just a reality of life.

 

[JackSlater]

I still think it's absurd for a GM to some how be in charge of a sexual assault investigation. That is way beyond their training or expertise. That should never happen, even today if something like this occurred, the correct chain of responsibility is the coaching staff/GM if they know something report up to the team president and make sure he is aware of the situation.

From that point on, the team president and his superiors on up to ownership in conjunction with the human resources/HR department and relevant in organization counseling division(s) should take over 100%. Not 80%, not 90%, 100%. And if the alleged victim at that point is willing to involve the police, the police should certainly be involved at that point.

The only point the GM or anyone below that should be involved in such a situation from that point on is if they have some relevant information to the case, ie: they were present at a party where something occurred later on and can provide some insight. If not, that should be the end of it from their end.

The Hawks president, McDonagh was informed and told the hockey staff (GM/asst GM/etc.) that he would handle it. McDonagh ran the Blackhawks reportedly with an iron fist and controlled just about everything too. That was actually to that point the correct way to handle the situation.

He and anyone on up from him is the one that IMO primarily failed. He said he would handle the situation and in the chain of command it's correct that he is the one that should have been handling it alongside the HR department of the Hawks. There shouldn't be ambiguity on this stuff either, it should be crystal clear how these things are handled and who does what not "well maybe this could have been done instead".

From everything I've read McDonash is the one who deserves by far the most blame in terms of how Chicago handled this situation, as you indicated. I've read differing reports on whether Bowman wrote some sort of letter of recommendation for Aldrich, it now seems unlikely that he did but if he did then that is his main issue. That a bunch of pissy children don't grasp how situations like this get handled and expected Bowman to be blacklisted for life for not going over his direct superior's head without concrete knowledge is not surprising. Edmonton's main mistake was hiring a fairly shitty GM in terms of the responsibilities typical of an NHL GM.

 

[FiveTacos]

I still think it's absurd for a GM to some how be in charge of a sexual assault investigation.

In charge of? No. Push to initiate? Yeah absolutely he could have made it happen. And it was certainly within his power to keep the alleged abuser isolated until an investigation happened.

"My boss is a big scary meanie" isn't the defense you think it is.

Neither is "he just didn't know beyond the allegations" ... Well, unless you're a Joe Paterno fan too.

And again, if he did everything he was supposed to do, why is he now claiming he didn't do enough, and that he's learned? It can't be both. Which is it? Because of it's the former, then the endorsements by Beach and Kennedy of Bowman as someone who's learned to do better are a lie. If it's the latter then you can't use "he did what he was supposed to do" as a defense.

 

[67 others]

That's one way to interpret what I said, though it requires the assumption that every true accusation results in charges, another assumption that the case is competently handled, and you have to ignore glaring flaws in the criminal punishment system that 1) has a huge backlog in rape kit analysis, and 2) has shown an inability to protect those who come forward. In other words, you drew an incorrect conclusion due to having a severely lacking understanding of the realities of these types of cases.

Oh no I'm well aware of the challenges and glaring flaws in the system. It sucks. A lot of the time, evidence is one word against another's word with no witnesses. Which is exceptionally hard to prove in court.

But the fact of the matter remains, the "92% to 98% of accusations are real or unable to be proven false" is really "only 12% are proven with conviction, 88% are inconclusive"

I still think it's absurd for a GM to some how be in charge of a sexual assault investigation. That is way beyond their training or expertise. That should never happen, even today if something like this occurred, the correct chain of responsibility is the coaching staff/GM if they know something report up to the team president and make sure he is aware of the situation.

From that point on, the team president and his superiors on up to ownership in conjunction with the human resources/HR department and relevant in organization counseling division(s) should take over 100%. Not 80%, not 90%, 100%. And if the alleged victim at that point is willing to involve the police, the police should certainly be involved at that point.

The only point the GM or anyone below that should be involved in such a situation from that point on is if they have some relevant information to the case, ie: they were present at a party where something occurred later on and can provide some insight. If not, that should be the end of it from their end.

The Hawks president, McDonagh was informed and told the hockey staff (GM/asst GM/etc.) that he would handle it. McDonagh ran the Blackhawks reportedly with an iron fist and controlled just about everything too. That was actually to that point the correct way to handle the situation.

He and anyone on up from him is the one that IMO primarily failed. He said he would handle the situation and in the chain of command it's correct that he is the one that should have been handling it alongside the HR department of the Hawks. There shouldn't be ambiguity on this stuff either, it should be crystal clear how these things are handled and who does what, not "well maybe this could have been done instead".

This.