OHL - Defected Players

[Ward Cornell]

My overall point was, and continues to be, that everyone points to London and suggests that the only reason that they get top Us skaters is due to money and geography. How is that even possible that the Soo has done it, especially considering that Kyle was acknowledged as one of the hardest working guys out there.

One or two signings are an outlier, 5? Thats a trend.

Its also interesting to note that the Soo's drafting of US based prospects increased significantly under Dubas and the signings started soon after. There's a direct line cause and effect there. Draft them, work on them and sign a percentage. You have to have the stomach to miss on draft picks. Kyle was also the guy who drafted Tolchinski 12th overall when he had a deal with another team and wouldn't report. Look how that worked out for him.

People will always need to hate London or whomever else is signing players, but my overall point being is if the Soo can do it, why cant anyone. Its very simple and easy to complain, no so easy to fight back.

Don't disagree with much or anything you say just that London got these players because "Hunter was the hardest working GM".
That's a very loose term and kind of lousy way to say other GMs are (who doesnt have a fully loaded chamber like a few GMs have.) are dogging it
Hunter was the owner of the team and could take a longer range view for drafting these players while others has to manage for the here and now.
But yes, Dubas did a great job for one cycle and may continued doing so.

 

[youngblood10]

The Soo added two American players this season, and they have 2 assists between them. The Knights added only three who have 161 points combined.

 

[Tigers1992]

That's a very loose term and kind of lousy way to say other GMs are (who doesnt have a fully loaded chamber like a few GMs have.) are dogging it.

Would you say that a GM (not GM/Coach) who you never see in rinks is doing his team justice? How fair is it that he's drawing a salary while others who have the same responsibilities are doing more (not shocking that GM was the head of a bad team).

Im not saying its black and white, but if you're not willing to outwork your peers, your not going to get very far. Even now there is a big different between GMs who work and those who do not.

 

[Tigers1992]

The Soo added two American players this season, and they have 2 assists between them. The Knights added only three who have 161 points combined.

Now just imagine if someone else had stepped up and drafted Piccinich and Tkachuk.

Ill go back to the Tolchinski example, said he was only willing to go to a certain place, Dubas still drafted him and got him to eventually sign. The way picks are treated now, 3rd round picks aren't even that valued.

And Ill add, Jack Kopacka was a pretty good add this year, 8th round in 2014, 13 goals and 26 points. Don't tell the Soo they arn't allowed to draft and sign Americans

Im kidding, but Im sure you get my point. Sometimes you have to be willing to accept risk to get results. The Soo increased their US draft picks and the roster composition has shown that. What happens when others do the same and work on signing those players as opposed to quitting and not trying before even attempting?

 

[youngblood10]

Now just imagine if someone else had stepped up and drafted Piccinich and Tkachuk.

Ill go back to the Tolchinski example, said he was only willing to go to a certain place, Dubas still drafted him and got him to eventually sign. The way picks are treated now, 3rd round picks aren't even that valued.

And Ill add, Jack Kopacka was a pretty good add this year, 8th round in 2014, 13 goals and 26 points. Don't tell the Soo they arn't allowed to draft and sign Americans

Im kidding, but Im sure you get my point. Sometimes you have to be willing to accept risk to get results. The Soo increased their US draft picks and the roster composition has shown that. What happens when others do the same and work on signing those players as opposed to quitting and not trying before even attempting?

We're going to have to agree to disagree cause we're going in circles.
But you know as well as I do if another team drafted Piccinich or Tkachuk at best they'd be sitting on a few 2026 picks from London for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Tigers1992]

We're going to have to agree to disagree cause we're going in circles.
But you know as well as I do if another team drafted Piccinich or Tkachuk at best they'd be sitting on a few 2026 picks from London for pennies on the dollar.

I do agree on the agreeing to disagree part, which is fine.

And no, that wouldn't be the case, see Tolchinski in the Soo, Dansk in Erie, Labanc and Radke in Barrie, Foegele in Kingston, Siebenaler and Dhillion in Niagara. Often players just go to the teams that they are drafted by because they are the ones that put the work in.

But you are right, we must agree to disagree.

 

[Ward Cornell]

Would you say that a GM (not GM/Coach) who you never see in rinks is doing his team justice? How fair is it that he's drawing a salary while others who have the same responsibilities are doing more (not shocking that GM was the head of a bad team).

Im not saying its black and white, but if you're not willing to outwork your peers, your not going to get very far. Even now there is a big different between GMs who work and those who do not.

No I don't!

"a" as singular or did you mean vast majority?
I really don't disagree with anything you say just that you seem to imply that a certain GM success is only because he's outworking 19 other GMs. Just not sure how you can quantify that.

^ not a biggie, respect your views and opinion any day of the week!

 

[Tigers1992]

No I don't!

"a" as singular or did you mean vast majority?
I really don't disagree with anything you say just that you seem to imply that a certain GM success is only because he's outworking 19 other GMs. Just not sure how you can quantify that.

^ not a biggie, respect your views and opinion any day of the week!

I probably didn't articulate myself very well.

I just have a problem when some teams complain about other teams yet those other teams outwork them at every turn. If you don't like where your team is, get out there and work. Like anything in life, there are some who do things well, some who don't.

Thanks for the kind words and thanks to those who have kept this very emotional topic civil.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I don't have a problem when players refuse to report to a specific team. It represents a very small % of drafted players and that's just the cost of doing business when you've got a league where the players being drafted are 15/16 years old and often leaving home for the first time.

The teams who have the chronic recruitment/player retention problems are typically ones that are poorly run, poorly resourced, and don't create the type of environment that is attractive to players or their parents. When you do things on the cheap, hire incompetent coaches, allow internal discipline problems to flourish, pay insufficient attention to the character of the 19/20 year olds you have on the team, etc., don't be surprised when kids who have the leverage to go to a better situation do so!

 

[Otto]

Don't disagree with much or anything you say just that London got these players because "Hunter was the hardest working GM".
That's a very loose term and kind of lousy way to say other GMs are (who doesnt have a fully loaded chamber like a few GMs have.) are dogging it
Hunter was the owner of the team and could take a longer range view for drafting these players while others has to manage for the here and now.
But yes, Dubas did a great job for one cycle and may continued doing so.

As I pointed out earlier.. it's not just about the draft.. London has done well in the free agent market, which is one of the reasons why Mark Hunter is/was considered the hardest working GM.

 

[Ward Cornell]

As I pointed out earlier.. it's not just about the draft.. London has done well in the free agent market, which is one of the reasons why Mark Hunter is/was considered the hardest working GM.

Some truth to that but there are players that fell into Londons lap due to the their track record when NHL sends their draft prospects there.

 

[GangGreen]

The Soo added two American players this season, and they have 2 assists between them. The Knights added only three who have 161 points combined.

Tkachuk, Jones, Piccinich, Sherwood, Miletic is 5 that I can think of.
Don't think any of these guys said they'd only play in London. The Knights had to wait on them though, not every team can afford that luxury.

 

[howndawg]

Tkachuk, Jones, Piccinich, Sherwood, Miletic is 5 that I can think of.
Don't think any of these guys said they'd only play in London. The Knights had to wait on them though, not every team can afford that luxury.

Right you are not many teams can afford them $$$$$$

 

[CharlieGirl]

The teams who have the chronic recruitment/player retention problems are typically ones that are poorly run, poorly resourced, and don't create the type of environment that is attractive to players or their parents. When you do things on the cheap, hire incompetent coaches, allow internal discipline problems to flourish, pay insufficient attention to the character of the 19/20 year olds you have on the team, etc., don't be surprised when kids who have the leverage to go to a better situation do so!

Exactly. We've all heard horror stories about a few franchises, and I'd be very leery of sending my 16 year old son to them. I'd rather he go to the NCAA than some of those teams - call that manipulating the draft if you wish. As a parent, my prime concern is my child, not the feelings of the teams (and their fans) who haven't created an environment I'm comfortable sending my son.

 

[may know]

Exactly. We've all heard horror stories about a few franchises, and I'd be very leery of sending my 16 year old son to them. I'd rather he go to the NCAA than some of those teams - call that manipulating the draft if you wish. As a parent, my prime concern is my child, not the feelings of the teams (and their fans) who haven't created an environment I'm comfortable sending my son.

Bingo.

I find the fans that complain the most are from teams where there are issues.

But I agree wholeheartedly. There are about 5 teams I'd have no issue sending my son to, about 10 teams I've had some questions about before sending him there and then 5 where there would be no way in hell I'd send my son to.

 

[youngblood10]

Bingo.

I find the fans that complain the most are from teams where there are issues.

But I agree wholeheartedly. There are about 5 teams I'd have no issue sending my son to, about 10 teams I've had some questions about before sending him there and then 5 where there would be no way in hell I'd send my son to.

Oh, I complain alot & I watch a team that benefits with the current set up. But my issue is with the league. Not the players/agents. If these franchises want to fly under the ohl/chl banner there should be a standard. Obviously there isn't if families are fearful of organizations. And for those cases when a player wants to dictate where he plays, there needs to be a better compensation package in place than there is now.

 

[youngblood10]

As an example instead of sending a boatload of future picks. How about the claiming teams, next yrs 1st pick. And the claiming team protects a number of players say 10 & the other club can pick an unprotected roster player. Something with teeth.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

As an example instead of sending a boatload of future picks. How about the claiming teams, next yrs 1st pick. And the claiming team protects a number of players say 10 & the other club can pick an unprotected roster player. Something with teeth.

The current system is sufficient. Nothing you are suggesting is at all necessary.

 

[EvenSteven]

As an example instead of sending a boatload of future picks. How about the claiming teams, next yrs 1st pick. And the claiming team protects a number of players say 10 & the other club can pick an unprotected roster player. Something with teeth.

By sending the team's first round pick, you are effectively allowing the trading of 1st round picks. This league doesn't allow that and rightfully so.

Also, there is a reason that when dealing with situations like the defective player and trades for that player, that only picks be allowed to change hands in those deals. I'm sure the reason is that the league doesn't want to uproot players just because a certain player won't report to a certain team.

Sure, we allow the trading of players in this league, but I'd assume the league prefers to not promote the trading of players.

 

[youngblood10]

By sending the team's first round pick, you are effectively allowing the trading of 1st round picks. This league doesn't allow that and rightfully so.

Also, there is a reason that when dealing with situations like the defective player and trades for that player, that only picks be allowed to change hands in those deals. I'm sure the reason is that the league doesn't want to uproot players just because a certain player won't report to a certain team.

Sure, we allow the trading of players in this league, but I'd assume the league prefers to not promote the trading of players.

I understand the current rules, I'm suggesting idea's that would spread the talent throughout the league. I've never felt the compensation pick was fair to the other teams who don't have involvement in these transactions.
The other suggestion allows the top end kids to pick their spots, the kids who gets bumped down the depth chart, gets a better opportunity to play in a different market. It doesn't allow the few markets to hold all the talent and the league over all is stronger for it.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

I've never felt the compensation pick was fair to the other teams who don't have involvement in these transactions.

This is the part that irks me as well.

If my team was slated to pick 10th, except two players from last years top 10 were declared defected, I'm now picking 12th. I don't think my draft position should be impacted since it wasn't involved.

I don't profess to know what to do about it, though.

Perhaps a sandwich style round like baseball has? The team(s) would get a compensation pick between rounds 1 and 2 plus whatever return they got from the trade of the defected player.

I dunno. Seems like it might be a more fair way of doing things - cause honestly, the way the compensation works now (a make up pick, plus the return in trade) almost makes it worthwhile to draft a player you know will defect since the return (while not immediate) will likely be better than the player drafted. Plus, the sandwich pick system wouldn't impact other teams 1st round pick positions either.

Someone tell me why I am wrong...

 

[EvenSteven]

This is the part that irks me as well.

If my team was slated to pick 10th, except two players from last years top 10 were declared defected, I'm now picking 12th. I don't think my draft position should be impacted since it wasn't involved.

I don't profess to know what to do about it, though.

Perhaps a sandwich style round like baseball has? The team(s) would get a compensation pick between rounds 1 and 2 plus whatever return they got from the trade of the defected player.

I dunno. Seems like it might be a more fair way of doing things - cause honestly, the way the compensation works now (a make up pick, plus the return in trade) almost makes it worthwhile to draft a player you know will defect since the return (while not immediate) will likely be better than the player drafted. Plus, the sandwich pick system wouldn't impact other teams 1st round pick positions either.

Someone tell me why I am wrong...

You're not wrong, on his point anyway. I said as soon as this rule came into place and saw the return that the Lessio deal brought Niagara. I said if I was running a team, once I secured a second 1st round pick under this rule, I would go out of my way every year to find a player I knew would never report to my team and use one of my two 1st rounders to pick that player with the intent on dealing him for a huge return. Then I'd use my other first rounder to draft a player I could get to report.

Therefore, I would have a first rounder report to my team every year plus the huge return for the other 1st rounder once I completed the deal - and so on and so on.

There's no reason anyone running one of those "have not" teams couldn't follow this model and stay competitive.

Looks to me that Niagara is only team doing anything close to this.

 

[Tigers1992]

You're not wrong, on his point anyway. I said as soon as this rule came into place and saw the return that the Lessio deal brought Niagara. I said if I was running a team, once I secured a second 1st round pick under this rule, I would go out of my way every year to find a player I knew would never report to my team and use one of my two 1st rounders to pick that player with the intent on dealing him for a huge return. Then I'd use my other first rounder to draft a player I could get to report.

Therefore, I would have a first rounder report to my team every year plus the huge return for the other 1st rounder once I completed the deal - and so on and so on.

There's no reason anyone running one of those "have not" teams couldn't follow this model and stay competitive.

Looks to me that Niagara is only team doing anything close to this.

The rules don't allow you to acquire compensation picks in back to back years. As an example, Flint and Barrie can't can a pick this year after trading a defective player last year. They can trade the player for an asset, but the compensation puck would be in the second round i believe. They can in the 2017 draft however.

 

[EvenSteven]

The rules don't allow you to acquire compensation picks in back to back years. As an example, Flint and Barrie can't can a pick this year after trading a defective player last year. They can trade the player for an asset, but the compensation puck would be in the second round i believe. They can in the 2017 draft however.

Geeez! I must be losing my mind! I posted pretty much the same post a short time ago and was corrected on it just like you did with your post above.

I must be getting Oldtimers!!

 

[Tigers1992]

Geeez! I must be losing my mind! I posted pretty much the same post a short time ago and was corrected on it just like you did with your post above.

I must be getting Oldtimers!!

I've never read the rule, so don't take it as the gospel, but thats whats been told to me from people who would know.