Offseason Roster Moves, Rumors, and Discussion

[noncents]

Just my opinions here, so take them with a grain of salt...

I don't personally believe that Lindgren is a player that the Blue Jackets would want to give up one of their young forwards for. He does fit the bill of a veteran defensive LD that's a heart and soul leader kind of guy. But his underlying numbers are not terrific, as I recall. If they were interested in him, though, I'd suspect that they'd rather give up a pick or one of the young defensemen (Boqvist or Bean with complementary picks) for him than one of their young forwards. I think if the young forwards are moved, it's going to be part of a quantity-for-quality trade.

Columbus is probably not the right place for Kakko, as they already have a lot of young wingers. I don't see a spot for him.

What is the central piece that you're after here? If it's Provorov, I'd guess that he could probably be had at 50 % retained for the #30 pick.

when you say "quantity for quality" you mean quality coming back to cbj?

and forgive me if i'm missing something but it seems like especially if Laine is moved then there's certainly a spot for a top 6 W more advanced along the development curve than the ELC guys?

 

[VT]

NYR fan here in peace.
what say ye:
kakko, lindgren rights, 30OVR
for
provorov. voronkov, lak 3rd

I think not. Columbus does not need Kakko, we have enough wingers. Also Voronkov is important for us, an ideal power forward. But Waddell might do it because Lindgren is a tough d-man and many people think Kakko will still show his qualities.

 

[noncents]

I think not. Columbus does not need Kakko, we have enough wingers. Also Voronkov is important for us, an ideal power forward. But Waddell might do it because Lindgren is a tough d-man and many people think Kakko will still show his qualities.

im not surprised that y'all are against it, but i don't think it's a disrespectfully uneven proposal.

in any case cheers y'all and thanks for the feedback

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

when you say "quantity for quality" you mean quality coming back to cbj?

and forgive me if i'm missing something but it seems like especially if Laine is moved then there's certainly a spot for a top 6 W more advanced along the development curve than the ELC guys?

Yes, I mean quality coming back to CBJ.

We don't know what the return in a Laine trade will be. It might be a guy like Anders Lee, who would slot into Columbus' top 6. Regardless, it's probably time for players like Marchenko, Chinakhov and Johnson to start playing in the top 6 more consistently. Kakko would in all likelihood play in the bottom 6 in Columbus, regardless of what return they get for Laine. And the bottom 6 is already crowded as it is. If they are bringing in someone to play there, it's probably going to be a veteran leader type like Martinook. I don't see Kakko getting a spot over other young forwards like Voronkov, Texier, Nylander or Sillinger. Kakko is just not a fit in Columbus, unless they are utterly convinced that he can be a top 6 guy. But I don't think they are or they would probably have traded for him by now.

 

[VT]

im not surprised that y'all are against it, but i don't think it's a disrespectfully uneven proposal.

in any case cheers y'all and thanks for the feedback

It is a normal proposal, I think. Many players restarted their careers in another team, for example Forsling, Bennett and Verhaeghe in Florida. Or look at Alex Nylander before Columbus and in Columbus. And Kakko is talented.

It's also important to note that a tough defensive defenseman at a good level is hard to find. We may want Dillon, Pesce, etc, but other teams can offer more, and I don't just mean money right now.

But I think trading Voronkov would not be too good idea.

 

[noncents]

Yes, I mean quality coming back to CBJ.

We don't know what the return in a Laine trade will be. It might be a guy like Anders Lee, who would probably slot into Columbus' top 6. Regardless, it's probably time for players like Marchenko, Chinakhov and Johnson to start playing in the top 6 more consistently. Kakko would in all likelihood play in the bottom 6 in Columbus, regardless of what return they get for Laine. And the bottom 6 is already crowded as it is. If they are bringing in someone to play there, it's probably going to be a veteran leader type like Martinook. I don't see Kakko getting a spot over other young forwards like Voronkov, Texier, Nylander or Sillinger. Kakko is just not a fit in Columbus, unless they are utterly convinced that he can be a top 6 guy. But I don't think they are or they would probably have traded for him by now.

yup i agree with the idea that if they trade for kakko it's because they think he's a surefire top 6 player who can be acquired and signed below market value.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I’m surprised the idea of Kakko in a trade has generated so many posts. This seems like an easy no - case closed from my end.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

im not surprised that y'all are against it, but i don't think it's a disrespectfully uneven proposal.

in any case cheers y'all and thanks for the feedback

I think the "offending" part is Voronkov. I mean, yeah there are reasons we'd be opposed to adding KK or Lindgren, but I don't think those are the hangups.

What are the motivations for NYR to be looking at this kind of a trade? Is Provorov the target? Voronkov? Getting rid of KK? There might be more to talk about if you remove Voronkov and rework the deal.

 

[noncents]

I think the "offending" part is Voronkov. I mean, yeah there are reasons we'd be opposed to adding KK or Lindgren, but I don't think those are the hangups.

What are the motivations for NYR to be looking at this kind of a trade? Is Provorov the target? Voronkov? Getting rid of KK? There might be more to talk about if you remove Voronkov and rework the deal.

a better fitting partner for Fox than Lindgren and better middle 6 fit than Kakko, who is talented but probably needs a change of scenery.

the idea for Cbj would be buying low on a potential top 6 young player in kakko, and solidifying D core longer term with RFA lindgren who can eat top 4 minutes, provides toughness and leadership, has a great rep in the league, etc. plus adding to draft capital in this retooling phase.

 

[Xoggz22]

when you say "quantity for quality" you mean quality coming back to cbj?

and forgive me if i'm missing something but it seems like especially if Laine is moved then there's certainly a spot for a top 6 W more advanced along the development curve than the ELC guys?

Chinakhov fits very well in the top 6 along with Johnny, Marchenko and Boone of they move him back to wing and add a top 6 center, which they are trying to do. I could see Necas as a target to fit wing or center and a better option than KK. Like others, i don't see a real fit here.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

a better fitting partner for Fox than Lindgren and better middle 6 fit than Kakko, who is talented but probably needs a change of scenery.

the idea for Cbj would be buying low on a potential top 6 young player in kakko, and solidifying D core longer term with RFA lindgren who can eat top 4 minutes, provides toughness and leadership, has a great rep in the league, etc. plus adding to draft capital in this retooling phase.

So like start with Provorov for Lindgren? I like this as a base.

Then decide how badly you want to move KK with no Voronkov (or any RFA middle-sixer) coming back, remembering CBJ has a bunch of guys that do or are getting ready to do the same thing KK is "supposed" to do. I'm not inclined to make him a priority but I'm also not opposed to taking the shot.

I don't know how much of a chance he would get, so I don't know if we'd learn what we'd hope to learn. Even without Laine, Jackets have Gaudreau, Chinakov, Marchenko, Johnson, one of Jenner/Sillinger/Voronkov/Fantilli and Nylander as possible top 9 wingers, and that leaves 3 guys to play wing on the 4th line. KK is not all that valuable in that scenario.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Speaking of Nylander, when do we get to hear RFA tenders? Is the deadline after the draft or before this year?

 

[majormajor]

a better fitting partner for Fox than Lindgren and better middle 6 fit than Kakko, who is talented but probably needs a change of scenery.

the idea for Cbj would be buying low on a potential top 6 young player in kakko, and solidifying D core longer term with RFA lindgren who can eat top 4 minutes, provides toughness and leadership, has a great rep in the league, etc. plus adding to draft capital in this retooling phase.

If you want to talk Provorov for Lindgren, then we can talk. The rest is not interesting for Columbus.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I guess I'm jumping in mid-discussion, but everything you appear to be describing in McGroarty sounds very similar to Sillinger.

i don't disagree that mcgroarty stylistically is similar to sillinger. i'm higher on him because he has louder tools (better hands/playmaking/scoring) and because the contract status is way more favorable (ELC vs RFA).

1) Sillinger is 10 months older than McGroarty, but we have 3 years of actual NHL data to pull from.

yes, we have three years of sillinger data in the NHL, but you're ignoring what that data actually tells us – namely, that he's not a particularly effective NHL player at either end of the ice. and i say that as someone who's been a vocal sillinger defender.

there's also the argument that the jackets have stunted sillinger's development by throwing him into the NHL -- if that's the case, moving him for a similar player whose development has been given the appropriate runway is, in oversimplified terms, a way to right that wrong.

the "he's similar to sillinger so i'd rather just keep sillinger" thing is the wrong way to look at it imo. yes, you're getting a similar player, but it's one who wasn't rushed into the NHL at 18 and has a full ELC ahead of them.

2) Why is McGroarty's spot on the depth chart any less murky than Sillinger? To me it's more murky as he has yet to plan a NHL game and we don't know if he's a center or a wing. Sillinger is clearly a center and has done so at the NHL level.

1. sillinger is already behind the top three centers (fantilli, jenner, voronkov) on the roster
2. the jackets have a clear and pressing need to improve down the middle in terms of quality, not quantity, meaning sillinger's presence doesn't do much to actually fix the issue.
3. mcgroarty fits an archetype at wing that the jackets don't have (sturdy two-way winger who can get to the net and play in the corners while also creating offense for teammates)

3) Sillinger is also considered a leader and at one point a potential future captain. Not sure what has changed

i'm not disputing this, either, but my point is that mcgroarty for sillinger wouldn't be a net loss of intangibles for this team, and would get the jackets a more talented (and cheaper) player.

 

[noncents]

So like start with Provorov for Lindgren? I like this as a base.

Then decide how badly you want to move KK with no Voronkov (or any RFA middle-sixer) coming back, remembering CBJ has a bunch of guys that do or are getting ready to do the same thing KK is "supposed" to do. I'm not inclined to make him a priority but I'm also not opposed to taking the shot.

I don't know how much of a chance he would get, so I don't know if we'd learn what we'd hope to learn. Even without Laine, Jackets have Gaudreau, Chinakov, Marchenko, Johnson, one of Jenner/Sillinger/Voronkov/Fantilli and Nylander as possible top 9 wingers, and that leaves 3 guys to play wing on the 4th line. KK is not all that valuable in that scenario.

Chinakhov fits very well in the top 6 along with Johnny, Marchenko and Boone of they move him back to wing and add a top 6 center, which they are trying to do. I could see Necas as a target to fit wing or center and a better option than KK. Like others, i don't see a real fit here.

this all makes sense to me. like i said - the response to the trade proposal is not a surprise given the estimation of Kakko as nothing more than what he has shown given limited opportunity on NYR. if he has blossomed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So the logic is,

does the value of the
Lindgren + 30 > Provorov
even out the
Kakko > Voronkov

if, as you all believe, it does not, then there's no trade appeal. but if CBJ believes Kakko can develop closer to his 2oa potential, there's a deal there.

fwiw i always saw Kakko as a player that would fit with what Carolina tries to do, heavy possession and high shot volume. obviously Rod the Bod is a big part of that but the Waddell influence is part of the idea here.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

this all makes sense to me. like i said - the response to the trade proposal is not a surprise given the estimation of Kakko as nothing more than what he has shown given limited opportunity on NYR. if he has blossomed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

if my aunt had wheels she'd be a bicycle, but she's not, so we're not having that conversation.

So the logic is,

does the value of the
Lindgren + 30 > Provorov
even out the
Kakko > Voronkov

voronkov >>>> kakko though.

honestly, voronkov is the best piece in that entire trade. he's a 6'5 center who just had a great rookie year and is still on an ELC that contains zero bonuses. if you swap him out for, say, texier, we may be able to keep this conversation going.

but if you insist on voronkov being in the deal, you're gonna have to swap out kakko and give up a significant piece instead. i'm talking chytil+ (assuming health) or perrault+ and we're talking significant pluses there.

anyway my official counter would be:

​

To NYR: Dmitry Voronkov, Ivan Provorov (50% retained), Alex Texier​

To CBJ: K'Andre Miller, Kaapo Kakko​

take it or leave it.

 

[noncents]

but if you insist on voronkov being in the deal, you're gonna have to swap out kakko and give up a significant piece instead. i'm talking chytil+ (assuming health) or perrault+ and we're talking significant pluses there.

i don't insist on Voronkov.

in fact, i specifically asked the following:

Which ELC/RFA fwd would be tolerable in a Lindgeen Kakko 30OVR - Provorov/____ deal?

thanks yall

i give the deal you mentioned significant thought as well.

cheers

 

[ViD]

At this time trading Voronkov, barring a ridiculous offer, might be a franchise altering mistake. If he progresses well and as most of us expect, he might become one of the very few extremely effective power forwards that can wreck havoc and score at the same time.

Him already training hard and visibly slimming down gives me even better hopes on his next season breakthrough

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Again, if the goal is not to specifically acquire Voronkov, then:

Lindgren + Kakko
for
Provorov + ?? (that's not Voronkov or any other current Jackets RFA winger)

or even better

Lindgren for Provorov

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Again, if the goal is not to specifically acquire Voronkov, then:

Lindgren + Kakko
for
Provorov + ?? (that's not Voronkov or any other current Jackets RFA winger)

or even better

Lindgren for Provorov

yeah it only makes sense for cbj to acquire kakko if they can actually clear up space for him to get into the lineup (and the top nine specifically) but i don't think there's a compelling reason to get rid of any of those top nine guys if the guy displacing them is kaapo kakko lol

just eliminate kakko and the deal makes more sense

 

[noncents]

i think lindgren has more value than provorov. with retention it might make sense. or a 3rd

 

[majormajor]

i think lindgren has more value than provorov. with retention it might make sense. or a 3rd

I think retention on Provorov makes sense, given the Rangers value cap space more and the Jackets futures more. Provorov is good for his salary but retention is a means of evening out value here.

 

[Xoggz22]

i don't disagree that mcgroarty stylistically is similar to sillinger. i'm higher on him because he has louder tools (better hands/playmaking/scoring) and because the contract status is way more favorable (ELC vs RFA).

yes, we have three years of sillinger data in the NHL, but you're ignoring what that data actually tells us – namely, that he's not a particularly effective NHL player at either end of the ice. and i say that as someone who's been a vocal sillinger defender.

there's also the argument that the jackets have stunted sillinger's development by throwing him into the NHL -- if that's the case, moving him for a similar player whose development has been given the appropriate runway is, in oversimplified terms, a way to right that wrong.

the "he's similar to sillinger so i'd rather just keep sillinger" thing is the wrong way to look at it imo. yes, you're getting a similar player, but it's one who wasn't rushed into the NHL at 18 and has a full ELC ahead of them.

1. sillinger is already behind the top three centers (fantilli, jenner, voronkov) on the roster
2. the jackets have a clear and pressing need to improve down the middle in terms of quality, not quantity, meaning sillinger's presence doesn't do much to actually fix the issue.
3. mcgroarty fits an archetype at wing that the jackets don't have (sturdy two-way winger who can get to the net and play in the corners while also creating offense for teammates)

i'm not disputing this, either, but my point is that mcgroarty for sillinger wouldn't be a net loss of intangibles for this team, and would get the jackets a more talented (and cheaper) player.

As I've mentioned in other posts to @majormajor, I think we're just going to have to disagree on this. I'm not discounting what the stats might tell us. However, I would ask who's metrics/stats on CBJ the last few years really tell us true player value. I still prefer the eye test and Sillinger was awful in year 2 (but I think his underlying metrics may have suggested he was better than his statistics - I thought he was terrible from an eye test). Last year he was significantly better and closer to his rookie year (where I'm pretty sure most on this board thought he was a huge get at the draft, but needed to work on his skating). And Sillinger was not behind the top 3 centers. Fantilli wasn't primarily a center, Voronkov played behind him and I think many would agree that getting Boone back to the wing would be a better spot for this team to add that type of play on the wing. He'll certainly be behind Fantilli once he is a full time C but I'm not convinced he's going to be behind Voronkov. I do think he woudl end up behind Lindstrom if that's who they draft, or even Helenius or Catton. I think he's a 3C+ with upside of a 2C (Sillinger that is).

Whatever I say isn't going to change minds so I won't belabor the topic. I just disagree with your approach and put more stock in what I see at the NHL level than a player with similar tools/skills that has yet to step on professional ice. Just feels like the shiny object thing I mentioned earlier. We want him to be better because we haven't seen him in the NHL yet. I happen to believe in Silinger and think much of what we see is a reflection of the entire team, not his skill set. Maybe I'm blind? Just my opinion.

And I'll leave it with this... I also didn't advocate for keeping Sillinger OVER McGroarty... I said I would like both. I think more of that style, not one or the other.

 

[Fred Glover]

this all makes sense to me. like i said - the response to the trade proposal is not a surprise given the estimation of Kakko as nothing more than what he has shown given limited opportunity on NYR. if he has blossomed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So the logic is,

does the value of the
Lindgren + 30 > Provorov
even out the
Kakko > Voronkov

if, as you all believe, it does not, then there's no trade appeal. but if CBJ believes Kakko can develop closer to his 2oa potential, there's a deal there.

fwiw i always saw Kakko as a player that would fit with what Carolina tries to do, heavy possession and high shot volume. obviously Rod the Bod is a big part of that but the Waddell influence is part of the idea here.

If you always saw Kakko as a player that would fit what Carolina tries to do, shouldn’t you then try to trade him there?

 

[AndBoomGoesTheCannon]

There is no trade list some players of Seattle Krakens (from one fan of Krakens, don't ask me his source, I don't know it).

Bjorkstrand - 7 Canadian teams + Buffalo, Columbus, Los Angeles
Burakowski - 7 Canadian teams + Washington, Buffalo, Colorado
McCann - 7 Canadian teams + Buffalo, Florida, Pittsburgh
Tanev - Calgary, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Winnipeg + 6 the worst teams
Gourde - Montreal + 22 the best teams except Tampa

Oleksiak - 15 West teams + Pittsburgh
Larsson - 7 Canadian teams + Florida, Buffalo, New Jersey
Dumoulin - 7 Canadian teams + Buffalo, Carolina, Pittsburgh

Grubauer - 7 Canadian teams + Colorado, Washington, Buffalo

So, MacDavid doesn't help Edmonton to get players, 7 players don't want to play there.

Btw, interesting, except Bjorkie, what is understandable, players don't have Columbus on their no-trade list, on the other side Buffalo 6x, Pittsburgh 4x, Colorado 2x, Florida 2x, Washington 2x, Carolina, New Jersey, Los Angeles and New Jersey 1x, if only American teams.

Looks like Tanev too