Seravalli: Official JT Miller Trade Thread - NEW Update (1/25/22) - Rangers Interest "Next Level"

[jackjohnson]

No it doesn't. Blatantly lie! Teams don't trade for rentals then win championships.

Really? Tampa didnt trade for rentals??

 

[jackjohnson]

I’ve been on hf a long time and if there is two things I’ve observed over the years it’s this

1.) Prospects become heavily overrated or underrated based off a short 5 game sample like WJC. Every teams fans are guilty of this.

2.). Fans view every late 1st as the next David Pasternak. In reality that picks most likely outcome is Jason Dickinson but nobody wants to admit it because it’s depressing thought.

The biggest mistake Mike Gillis made As a Canuck gm was holding on to Hodgson/Schroeder/draft picks when he could’ve used them to reinforce a president trophy winner. Cough Jeff carter cough

The Canucks are most likely going to lose this trade simply because top prospects and late 1sts bust quite often. We will be down one hell of a player in JTM and be hoping on some magic beans to salvage the trade.

I actually think Canucks are better off trading Boeser and Keeping Miller

 

[Canadian Canuck]

No it doesn't. Blatantly lie! Teams don't trade for rentals then win championships.

Literally 99% of teams that have won the cup traded for a rental before doing so…use your noggin

 

[dman34]

Nobody asked you.

Triggered much?

 

[FrozenJagrt]

"Facts and Logic" right? Some call it pointless pedantry, but keep beating that drum.

I was accused of lying about something (when I was not incorrect at all) when the person doubled down on their own lies. Is that truly pointless pedantry? Some fans are constructing a false narrative here.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I was accused of lying about something (when I was not incorrect at all) when the person doubled down on their own lies. Is that truly pointless pedantry? Some fans are constructing a false narrative here.

The difference between 19th and 33rd in scoring is 3 points. This thread has been going for multiple days. It's completely immaterial to the point of the thread. It literally doesn't matter.

 

[LionsHeart]

Should’ve never traded him in the first place. I know the cap is an issue going forward, but I’d take him back. He’d be great with Zibanejad and Kreider, then Kakko can go back to the Panarin and Strome line where he was playing his best hockey.

 

[bernmeister]

Unfortunately, for you, you do not call the shots.

That is not relevant. I was happy to spend some valuable time brushing back vs the positions spouted, some of which were nonsense and deserve repudiation.
To the extent this is subjective, any and all of us are entitled to our opinions, which as a champion of free speech I welcome. That said, to the extent objective analysis can be applied to comments made, it is possible to at least try and get a handle on what is more correct and less erroneous.
Objectively, there is no ?, any trade by Rangers taking on salary is a mistake b'c we may get over now, but there will be repercussions effective next season. This is why I emphasized Lindgren and his 3 x 3 ongoing would have to be involved, with JT at half, before continuing to then say, EVEN IF we went there, then we STILL have no follow up to have $$ for LaF, Kakko, etc.

I get them right. I get them wrong. I get them more right than wrong most of the time. I was staunchly vs trading Kreider from way back when, and that was correct, was vs Miller for Namest, and more. I am now saying Krav, IF DRURY STICKS HIS EGO WHERE THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE AND BENDS, BUCKLES, AND BREAKS IN CAPITULATION TO THE FACT I AM RIGHT ON THIS, [deliberately capped to make sure he sees it], if Kravtsov is given signif mins w/1st line talent, he will deliver. Trading him at a discount before that is established is stupid.

I liked JTM as a player, and was sorry that there was a combo of reasons that prompted his exit. But adding him before we can exit Trouba $$ is not smart, and the numbers back bern here, which is why I am indisputably correct on this. Does it make sense to add Miller, even at half, and then have to move, from a standpoint of weakness, LaF, Kakko, etc?

And you have the stones to mock me.

I have a feeling that its going to be for someone like Kakko/Lafreiniere straight up with some other secondary pieces attached or cap retention.

With the Rangers farm system and potential lack of cap space I definitely dont think those two are completely off the table

It will not be either K or L and the bold is non sequitur. Going forward, you need to deal vet $ for vet $ to add a Miller, not cheaper youth esp elcs, and there is no vet forwards who are a fit to do that, including for reason of them having nmcs.

You seem to be in denial.

Am I in denial; or am I the denier?

 

[bernmeister]

Should’ve never traded him in the first place. I know the cap is an issue going forward, but I’d take him back. He’d be great with Zibanejad and Kreider, then Kakko can go back to the Panarin and Strome line where he was playing his best hockey.

Not to be breaking chops and jumping all over just you, but this is a prob here. Peeps are glossing over giving lip service to a dominant consideration that is an overriding factor.
I have established other than dealing the popular Lindgren [w/a +, of course], who we can think about b'c we have LD depth, there is no way to get JT at half. And even then, we are not out of cap hell b'c we need $ for LaF/KK.

Everybody, pls, let's have a productive discussion about this before we all act like a child eyeing candy saying give me give ne give me.
Think of it as a challenge. Did bern miss something? Is he wrong here? How CAN the Rangers actually acquire Miller or anybody else and avoid* cap problems going forward beginning next season? *And by avoid, I do not mean ignore or not deal with, I mean overcome the potential for cap probs, which are actual based on the numbers.

 

[LionsHeart]

Not to be breaking chops and jumping all over just you, but this is a prob here. Peeps are glossing over giving lip service to a dominant consideration that is an overriding factor.
I have established other than dealing the popular Lindgren [w/a +, of course], who we can think about b'c we have LD depth, there is no way to get JT at half. And even then, we are not out of cap hell b'c we need $ for LaF/KK.

Everybody, pls, let's have a productive discussion about this before we all act like a child eyeing candy saying give me give ne give me.
Think of it as a challenge. Did bern miss something? Is he wrong here? How CAN the Rangers actually acquire Miller or anybody else and avoid* cap problems going forward beginning next season? *And by avoid, I do not mean ignore or not deal with, I mean overcome the potential for cap probs, which are actual based on the numbers.

Pretty much every team has cap issues though. If the Rangers brass feels like they can make a deep run then they should go for it.

 

[bernmeister]

Pretty much every team has cap issues though. If the Rangers brass feels like they can make a deep run then they should go for it.

I respectfully disagree.
How can justify setting ourselves up to have to deal LaF + KK in a weakened bargaining position because we added Miller?
We are gonna make a deep run anyway. The end result is a crapshoot in which injuries, etc for all clubs will make a dif.
And while even a Draisatil level add does not guarantee anything, at least that is a humongous add. Miller is nice, Hertl is nice, but it is not THAT level of difference maker.
NY can consider dealing youth for youth, vets for vets, vets for youth. Cannot do youth for vets.

 

[LionsHeart]

I respectfully disagree.
How can justify setting ourselves up to have to deal LaF + KK in a weakened bargaining position because we added Miller?
We are gonna make a deep run anyway. The end result is a crapshoot in which injuries, etc for all clubs will make a dif.
And while even a Draisatil level add does not guarantee anything, at least that is a humongous add. Miller is nice, Hertl is nice, but it is not THAT level of difference maker.
NY can consider dealing youth for youth, vets for vets, vets for youth. Cannot do youth for vets.

I don’t agree. Their 5v5 play is not good at all and they’re going to get caught by better teams.

If you think they should explore cheaper options to address the Top 6 RW spot then that makes sense, but it still needs to be addressed. Miller or Hertl would make us better for sure.

 

[bernmeister]

I don’t agree. Their 5v5 play is not good at all and they’re going to get caught by better teams.

If you think they should explore cheaper options to address the Top 6 RW spot then that makes sense, but it still needs to be addressed. Miller or Hertl would make us better for sure.

Respectfully can not agree. Better for sure NOW but consequences beg. as early as next season is too high a cost to accept.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe it was in another thread, but I find it weird that Canucks fans are so dismissive of Lundkvist as a big piece in a Miller trade. The dude was literally one of the best D prospects coming out of Sweden and produced at insane rates as a 19 and 20 year old. Just because he's not destroying the NHL at age 21 doesn't mean he's no longer a top RD prospect.

From the Rangers side, I also wouldn't make Schneider a sticking point if Vancouver was insistent on getting Schneider. The Rangers have Fox and Trouba on RD, and neither of those guys are moving at any point prior to 2024-2025 (when Trouba's NMC turns into a 15 team NTC). Schneider is a logical Trouba replacement down the line, but Trouba is literally unmovable for at least the next 2.5 seasons and probably more. Having Lundkvist or Schneider as your 3rd pair RD for likely the next 4.5 years really won't move the needle much for the Rangers winning IMO.

 

[ratbid]

I actually think Canucks are better off trading Boeser and Keeping Miller

I agree, I just hope Rutherford gets a good feel for whether or not Miller would sign and at what price. If he isn't interested in signing ahead of free agency and the offers are really "next level" then Vancouver has to move him this year IMO. If we can get him signed and the cap worked out then absolutely he fits this team really well and gives us some iteration of Miller, Horvat, and Pettersson down the middle for years to come.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I have a feeling that its going to be for someone like Kakko/Lafreiniere straight up with some other secondary pieces attached or cap retention.

With the Rangers farm system and potential lack of cap space I definitely dont think those two are completely off the table

Prior to 2020 the Rangers had never had a first overall draft pick in the modern draft era. Lafreniere is the first. They're not trading him at just 20 years old for JT Miller. It's just never going to happen. The list of players in this league (rightly or wrongly) that the Rangers would trade Lafereniere for has to be less than 2 or 3. People really need to realize this context when talking about Lafreniere being traded.

 

[arttk]

That is not relevant. I was happy to spend some valuable time brushing back vs the positions spouted, some of which were nonsense and deserve repudiation.
To the extent this is subjective, any and all of us are entitled to our opinions, which as a champion of free speech I welcome. That said, to the extent objective analysis can be applied to comments made, it is possible to at least try and get a handle on what is more correct and less erroneous.
Objectively, there is no ?, any trade by Rangers taking on salary is a mistake b'c we may get over now, but there will be repercussions effective next season. This is why I emphasized Lindgren and his 3 x 3 ongoing would have to be involved, with JT at half, before continuing to then say, EVEN IF we went there, then we STILL have no follow up to have $$ for LaF, Kakko, etc.

I get them right. I get them wrong. I get them more right than wrong most of the time. I was staunchly vs trading Kreider from way back when, and that was correct, was vs Miller for Namest, and more. I am now saying Krav, IF DRURY STICKS HIS EGO WHERE THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE AND BENDS, BUCKLES, AND BREAKS IN CAPITULATION TO THE FACT I AM RIGHT ON THIS, [deliberately capped to make sure he sees it], if Kravtsov is given signif mins w/1st line talent, he will deliver. Trading him at a discount before that is established is stupid.

I liked JTM as a player, and was sorry that there was a combo of reasons that prompted his exit. But adding him before we can exit Trouba $$ is not smart, and the numbers back bern here, which is why I am indisputably correct on this. Does it make sense to add Miller, even at half, and then have to move, from a standpoint of weakness, LaF, Kakko, etc?

And you have the stones to mock me.



It will not be either K or L and the bold is non sequitur. Going forward, you need to deal vet $ for vet $ to add a Miller, not cheaper youth esp elcs, and there is no vet forwards who are a fit to do that, including for reason of them having nmcs.



Am I in denial; or am I the denier?

We are reacting to rumors of the Rangers being really interested in getting Miller, not the other way around.
If you guys are the ones interested, then you have to meet our price or negotiate from there. It’s not like you guys are the only team interested and oh Miller has no NTC so we can trade him anywhere we want. You guys are not in control and if you can’t meet the price then that’s your problem.

 

[John Mandalorian]

We are reacting to rumors of the Rangers being really interested in getting Miller, not the other way around.
If you guys are the ones interested, then you have to meet our price or negotiate from there. It’s not like you guys are the only team interested and oh Miller has no NTC so we can trade him anywhere we want. You guys are not in control and if you can’t meet the price then that’s your problem.

Not so fast. It was a short time ago that there was this melt down reported and that Miller needed to be traded after being referred to as a negative influence in the locker room.

 

[arttk]

Not so fast. It was a short time ago that there was this melt down reported and that Miller needed to be traded after being referred to as a negative influence in the locker room.

Yeah we had Benning then and now it’s the Rutherford show. The whole vibe in the locker room, well the whole team changed after he was fired.

 

[bernmeister]

We are reacting to rumors of the Rangers being really interested in getting Miller, not the other way around.
If you guys are the ones interested, then you have to meet our price or negotiate from there. It’s not like you guys are the only team interested and oh Miller has no NTC so we can trade him anywhere we want. You guys are not in control and if you can’t meet the price then that’s your problem.

As noted, people incl journalists blow smoke for clickbait, to drive prices up or down as tools of mgmt. No one is in total control. Correct, we must meet your price or no deal, but of = weight, we will pay what we choose in the currency we decide, or no deal. Neither buyer nor seller can make the other capitulate. If a middle ground makes sense, that may be the way to go compared to the rest of the market for JT. Howev, as I've said, NY should not be so quick to get in any adding of a vet which adds cap next yr to which there will be real consequences. VAN should also play the hand that makes most sense for 'nucks.

 

[bernmeister]

Prior to 2020 the Rangers had never had a first overall draft pick in the modern draft era. Lafreniere is the first. They're not trading him at just 20 years old for JT Miller. It's just never going to happen. The list of players in this league (rightly or wrongly) that the Rangers would trade Lafereniere for has to be less than 2 or 3. People really need to realize this context when talking about Lafreniere being traded.

This ^ with one other aspect. In all other areas, we see LaF looking close to fully as advertised. His one shortcoming is his skating, in terms of it meeting or at top of NHL standards. He needs to move his legs properly. There has been some noticeable improvement over the past yr +, and if as seems he turns that corner any time soon into next yr, look out he will be on his way!

Not smart to sell short if he is on the verge of breaking out.

 

[arttk]

As noted, people incl journalists blow smoke for clickbait, to drive prices up or down as tools of mgmt. No one is in total control. Correct, we must meet your price or no deal, but of = weight, we will pay what we choose in the currency we decide, or no deal. Neither buyer nor seller can make the other capitulate. If a middle ground makes sense, that may be the way to go compared to the rest of the market for JT. Howev, as I've said, NY should not be so quick to get in any adding of a vet which adds cap next yr to which there will be real consequences. VAN should also play the hand that makes most sense for 'nucks.

Miller is our best player, so for that we have to get good assets for him.
For you guys, I imagine adding a PPG forward that can play wing/center and can play the PP and PK will make you guys really a legit contender. Let’s put it this way, if we retain half and Miller only costs 2.6 in cap. Where the hell will you find a player like that outside of guys on ELCs. You will not be able to find a more efficient contract than that unless you can convince the Avs to trade you guys Mack with half retained.

 

[bernmeister]

Miller is our best player, so for that we have to get good assets for him.
For you guys, I imagine adding a PPG forward that can play wing/center and can play the PP and PK will make you guys really a legit contender. Let’s put it this way, if we retain half and Miller only costs 2.6 in cap. Where the hell will you find a player like that outside of guys on ELCs. You will not be able to find a more efficient contract than that unless you can convince the Avs to trade you guys Mack with half retained.

One last time.
All of your points are valid and recognized.
BUT they do NOT overcome the stupidity of win now overindulgence which creates a cap situation where likely we have to move LaF/Kakko for less b'c there are few other trading options given salary we would want to move [Trouba's 8m] have nmcs.
Sorry, but need to capitulate to that reality.
I said best theoretical offer for NY, and admitted it to was too much of a non-starter b'c it only delayed, did not overcome, that problem. NY offer is not chopped liver but expect
1. Miller will stay in VAN
2. 'nucks get a better offer.

I do not begrudge you those outcomes. I do begrudge you, or any club, getting better at cost of NY screwing itself with a stupid mistake. Hopefully Drury will be smart here.

 

[wintersej]

Maybe it was in another thread, but I find it weird that Canucks fans are so dismissive of Lundkvist as a big piece in a Miller trade. The dude was literally one of the best D prospects coming out of Sweden and produced at insane rates as a 19 and 20 year old. Just because he's not destroying the NHL at age 21 doesn't mean he's no longer a top RD prospect.

From the Rangers side, I also wouldn't make Schneider a sticking point if Vancouver was insistent on getting Schneider. The Rangers have Fox and Trouba on RD, and neither of those guys are moving at any point prior to 2024-2025 (when Trouba's NMC turns into a 15 team NTC). Schneider is a logical Trouba replacement down the line, but Trouba is literally unmovable for at least the next 2.5 seasons and probably more. Having Lundkvist or Schneider as your 3rd pair RD for likely the next 4.5 years really won't move the needle much for the Rangers winning IMO.

Spot on. If the Rangers think Miller (or any other guys out there) are the missing piece, giving up Schneider to seal the deal should be a no brainer.

 

[arttk]

One last time.
All of your points are valid and recognized.
BUT they do NOT overcome the stupidity of win now overindulgence which creates a cap situation where likely we have to move LaF/Kakko for less b'c there are few other trading options given salary we would want to move [Trouba's 8m] have nmcs.
Sorry, but need to capitulate to that reality.
I said best theoretical offer for NY, and admitted it to was too much of a non-starter b'c it only delayed, did not overcome, that problem. NY offer is not chopped liver but expect
1. Miller will stay in VAN
2. 'nucks get a better offer.

I do not begrudge you those outcomes. I do begrudge you, or any club, getting better at cost of NY screwing itself with a stupid mistake. Hopefully Drury will be smart here.

I guess it really depends on what your management team wants, or what your uhh not so rational owner wants. Miller would provide you two runs at the very least.