Proposal: Offer sheet Nick Robertson

[Junohockeyfan]

Really?

Which of Marner or Nylander was he going to "bump down" over the last 2-3 years?

He would play the other side. Or they would play the other side. Either way, Cole would be a top-line winger on the Leafs. The cream always rises to the top.

As for Robertson, he just doesn't have the talent to be a top line forward or the ability to play bottom 6. He's in no man's land.

I don't get why you can't accept Nick Robertson is not anywhere close to being a top-6 winger. He's Kailer Yamamoto at best. And that's why you have no worries about an offsersheet. He's not worth the 2nd round pick in compensation.

 

[seanlinden]

Neither, but he's next in line after the Leafs top 4 forwards

Ok great... but put yourself in the shoes of an NHL coach....

Are you going to have Caufield & Marner as wingers on the same line?
Are you going to have Caufield & Nyander on teh same line?

Are you going to do either, when the centres are John Tavares or Auston Matthews (both who excel as a "secondary" forechecker)?

The answer is clearly no. It's why you saw Zack Hyman on that line for so long, Michael Bunting, Matthew Knies, Bobby McMann, etc.... guys who can forecheck, win a battle in the corner, and get the puck to the guys that make the creativity happen.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Ok great... but put yourself in the shoes of an NHL coach....

Are you going to have Caufield & Marner as wingers on the same line?
Are you going to have Caufield & Nyander on teh same line?

Are you going to do either, when the centres are John Tavares or Auston Matthews (both who excel as a "secondary" forechecker)?

The answer is clearly no. It's why you saw Zack Hyman on that line for so long, Michael Bunting, Matthew Knies, Bobby McMann, etc.... guys who can forecheck, win a battle in the corner, and get the puck to the guys that make the creativity happen.

LMAO.

 

[seanlinden]

He would play the other side. Or they would play the other side. Either way, Cole would be a top-line winger on the Leafs. The cream always rises to the top.

As for Robertson, he just doesn't have the talent to be a top line forward or the ability to play bottom 6. He's in no man's land.

I don't get why you can't accept Nick Robertson is not anywhere close to being a top-6 winger. He's Kailer Yamamoto at best. And that's why you have no worries about an offsersheet. He's not worth the 2nd round pick in compensation.

It's not just about handedness or left wing vs. right wing... it's about putting guys together who's game meshes reasonably well. Marner & Nylander both succeed when playing in the open ice. Neither is a spectacular forechecker.

It's why they only play together when the Leafs are desparate for a goal.

Caufield suffers from a similar problem -- he's at his best on teh same spots on the ice as those 2.

As for Robertson, he may not have "top line" talent, but he almost certainly has 2nd line talent. It's just a matter of getting himself onto a team that has a 2nd line position for him.

I don't get why you can't understand that there are reasons that Nick Robertson hasn't proven himself to be a top 6 winger.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

It's not just about handedness or left wing vs. right wing... it's about putting guys together who's game meshes reasonably well. Marner & Nylander both succeed when playing in the open ice. Neither is a spectacular forechecker.

It's why they only play together when the Leafs are desparate for a goal.

Caufield suffers from a similar problem -- he's at his best on teh same spots on the ice as those 2.

As for Robertson, he may not have "top line" talent, but he almost certainly has 2nd line talent. It's just a matter of getting himself onto a team that has a 2nd line position for him.

I don't get why you can't understand that there are reasons that Nick Robertson hasn't proven himself to be a top 6 winger.

The only reason Nick hasn't proven himself is because he's not capable. Its quite simple. I don't understand why you can't accept that. Not all players realize their ceiling. The problem with Nick is his floor and his inability to play bottom 6. He's one dimensional and not good enough in that 1 dimension.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

It's not just about handedness or left wing vs. right wing... it's about putting guys together who's game meshes reasonably well. Marner & Nylander both succeed when playing in the open ice. Neither is a spectacular forechecker.

It's why they only play together when the Leafs are desparate for a goal.

Caufield suffers from a similar problem -- he's at his best on teh same spots on the ice as those 2.

As for Robertson, he may not have "top line" talent, but he almost certainly has 2nd line talent. It's just a matter of getting himself onto a team that has a 2nd line position for him.

I don't get why you can't understand that there are reasons that Nick Robertson hasn't proven himself to be a top 6 winger.

It's because he has no idea how to evaluate players.

 

[jfhabs]

I don't care about Robrertson one way or the other but if they were drafted by the other team, Caufield would not have as many games played or points right now.

Similar game played, and probably more points being either more sheltered or playing with better line mates/less pressure.

Who knows these arguments both go ways.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Similar game played, and probably more points being either more sheltered or playing with better line mates/less pressure.

Who knows these arguments both go ways.

I think CC would have more points playing with prime Tavares or Matthews vs Suzuki who was a developing player.

 

[Gilmour1996]

I don't get why you can't understand that there are reasons that Nick Robertson hasn't proven himself to be a top 6 winger.

Methinks there might just be some jealousy in play. Sometimes it takes a few years beyond adolescence to realize that some of the lucky few make more money, have prettier girlfriends, have more successful careers, a more fit physique, more friends, nicer cars and don't have to spend all day on a hockey forum slagging a single player. Twenty-four posts on an 8-page thread might be some kind of record.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Robertson likely ends up in Russia. Let him prove something over there and he may have some value.
Leaf fans should have learned their lesson after they hyped Bracco so much. No one was getting fooled that Bracco had any value and no should be fooled that Robertson has shown enough to have any real value.

Indeed what most Leaf fans truly want is any offer sheet not to be matched so they can get something of value for Robertson. If they thought Robertson had value they'd want the offer sheet to be matched which clearly they don't.

Many Leaf fans were excited about Bracco and why wouldn't they at the time? No more so than other people about their young players though. It is just that Bracco has become part of a a hockey future mythology.

 

[Joe n]

Similar game played, and probably more points being either more sheltered or playing with better line mates/less pressure.

Who knows these arguments both go ways.

Unless Caufield can play his off wing he would have had a similar problem is he was on the Leafs. Marner and Nylander aren't changing sides to accommodate him.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

I didnt realize how much Robertson still causes some Habs fans to have a meltdown. They get deep in their feelings for this kid.

 

[Edgelord]

Can't believe the Habs haven't gone after him, he would fit in with Cole, Suzuki etc, 2nd line offense with 0 defense

 

[HockeyVirus]

I didnt realize how much Robertson still causes some Habs fans to have a meltdown. They get deep in their feelings for this kid.

They are scared he is just as good as Caufield still. Getting in the shots while they can trying to cover up the sinking feeling. They know Robertson popping home 35 this season

 

[Joe n]

Many Leaf fans were excited about Bracco and why wouldn't they at the time? No more so than other people about their young players though. It is just that Bracco has become part of a a hockey future mythology.

Just like Canuck fans were hyping Podkolzin when he was drafted. He was going to be some dominant power forward. Now he's traded for a 4th rounder. Fan bases tend to think all their draft pics will become nhl players

 

[seanlinden]

The only reason Nick hasn't proven himself is because he's not capable. Its quite simple. I don't understand why you can't accept that. Not all players realize their ceiling. The problem with Nick is his floor and his inability to play bottom 6. He's one dimensional and not good enough in that 1 dimension.

Let's use another guy as an example... Rasmus Sandin.

This was a player who, in 2 years with the Leafs, played a shade over 100 games... maybe give him credit for 110 given the COVID-cutoff season.

For the Leafs, he was an 18:00/night defenceman when he played....

Fast forward the trade to Washington, his ice time jumps to 22:59/game in the first year (IIRC Carlson was injured), got their top powerplay time, and put up 15 points in 19 games... more than doubling his per game production from Toronto.

Yes, in his first full season the productivity dropped back with Carlson back on the top PP; but in the span of a year, he went from likely not in the Leafs lineup after the trade deadline, to a 5 year, $4.6m contract.

Opportunity matters... especially when it comes to guys like Robertson, Caufield, Yamamoto, who's size somewhat restricts the types of games their able to play.

edit: Again, we're not arguing that Robertson is better than Caufield... we're simply trying to explain that Caufield lucked into an incredible situation in Montreal, where because of how bad the team was, he was going to get every single opportunity to prove himself night in and night out.

Robertson on the other hand, has been trying to cement himself on a highly talented team, especially up front, and honestly, a team that doesn't really "need" him beyond being somebody that can step up in the event of injury, and as an NHL-talent that they've been able to stash in the minors because he was waiver exempt.

He's also been injured, which is to a degree, his fault, but when you're trying to crack the lineup on a team that doesn't neccessarily need you, those injuries are much bigger setbacks growth-wise than it would be if he was instantly inserted back into a prominent spot in the lineup.

 

[seanlinden]

I think CC would have more points playing with prime Tavares or Matthews vs Suzuki who was a developing player.

Yeah, if for whatever reason William Nylander magically disappears, then undoubtedly, Cole Caufield would be a pretty solid "replacement" for him....

But that wasn't the "theory" posed. It was, what if you swap Caufield & Robertson; without any other changes to either team's lineup....

So now you've got an undersized rookie right winger with a cup of coffee in the NHL, trying to cement himself as a full time top 6 player, competing for the same opportunities with:
- Mitch Marner, who put up 97 points that year (in just 72 games), including 35 goals, on the way to helping Matthews hit 60 in 73.
- William Nylander, who put up 80 points including 34 goals.

Call me crazy, but when you've got Mitch Marner producing at a near-40 goal pace in addition to his massive assist numbers, and William Nylander at a point a game, some 5'8 kid out of college isn't getting onto the #1 powerplay or into the top 6 over these guys. Only Nick Suzuki had more powerplay time per game than Caufield did as a rookie.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Just like Canuck fans were hyping Podkolzin when he was drafted. He was going to be some dominant power forward. Now he's traded for a 4th rounder. Fan bases tend to think all their draft pics will become nhl players

Of course. It is exciting to look to the future with hopes and dreams. The US elected a president on that notion.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Yeah, if for whatever reason William Nylander magically disappears, then undoubtedly, Cole Caufield would be a pretty solid "replacement" for him....

But that wasn't the "theory" posed. It was, what if you swap Caufield & Robertson; without any other changes to either team's lineup....

So now you've got an undersized rookie right winger with a cup of coffee in the NHL, trying to cement himself as a full time top 6 player, competing for the same opportunities with:
- Mitch Marner, who put up 97 points that year (in just 72 games), including 35 goals, on the way to helping Matthews hit 60 in 73.
- William Nylander, who put up 80 points including 34 goals.

Call me crazy, but when you've got Mitch Marner producing at a near-40 goal pace in addition to his massive assist numbers, and William Nylander at a point a game, some 5'8 kid out of college isn't getting onto the #1 powerplay or into the top 6 over these guys. Only Nick Suzuki had more powerplay time per game than Caufield did as a rookie.

CC very well could have gotten Pp1 with Leafs. Nick meanwhile is still not a proven NHLer. There is a massive difference between CC and Kailer Yamamoto. Nick is Kailer in this comparison. In fact, he might be a Kailer light!

I expect Nick will sign for near league minimum. That is his value. Won’t be long.

 

[seanlinden]

CC very well could have gotten Pp1 with Leafs. Nick meanwhile is still not a proven NHLer. There is a massive difference between CC and Kailer Yamamoto. Nick is Kailer in this comparison. In fact, he might be a Kailer light!

I expect Nick will sign for near league minimum. That is his value. Won’t be long.

You honestly think that a rookie Cole Caufield would beat out a 97 point, 24 year-old Mitch Marner or point per game, 25-year old William Nylander for PP1 time in his rookie year?!?!?!?

Give your head a shake...

 

[Joe n]

You honestly think that a rookie Cole Caufield would beat out a 97 point, 24 year-old Mitch Marner or point per game, 25-year old William Nylander for PP1 time in his rookie year?!?!?!?

Give your head a shake...

Why not. Caufield would show the leafs in pre-season that he deserved to be there over allstar forward Marner.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

You honestly think that a rookie Cole Caufield would beat out a 97 point, 24 year-old Mitch Marner or point per game, 25-year old William Nylander for PP1 time in his rookie year?!?!?!?

Give your head a shake...

By year 3 - quite possibly!

 

[seanlinden]

By year 3 - quite possibly!

Not if he never gets the opportunity... which is the exact point. Caufield entered the NHL and was instantly on the #1 powerplay unit. He remained there as Montreal not only recognized that they need him to develop, but had pretty poor options around him.

Players don't magically develop with age. It's experience, confidence, opportunity. etc.

Caufield would have never got the opportunity he did as a rookie in Montreal if he had been drafted by Toronto... and without that opportunity as a rookie, he likely would not have "developed" into the player he is today.

Why not. Caufield would show the leafs in pre-season that he deserved to be there over allstar forward Marner.

Not sure if you're serious or not... but Marner went off for 35 goals that year as a pass-first player.

It's also not Marner he'd have been competing with for a spot, it'd be Matthews or Nylander, who've always been the triggermen on the Leafs PP. Caufield's a shooter.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Not if he never gets the opportunity... which is the exact point. Caufield entered the NHL and was instantly on the #1 powerplay unit. He remained there as Montreal not only recognized that they need him to develop, but had pretty poor options around him.

Players don't magically develop with age. It's experience, confidence, opportunity. etc.

Caufield would have never got the opportunity he did as a rookie in Montreal if he had been drafted by Toronto... and without that opportunity as a rookie, he likely would not have "developed" into the player he is today.



Not sure if you're serious or not... but Marner went off for 35 goals that year as a pass-first player.

It's also not Marner he'd have been competing with for a spot, it'd be Matthews or Nylander, who've always been the triggermen on the Leafs PP. Caufield's a shooter.

He would create the opportunity because he is a top line talent. Whereas Nick is barely an NHL talent…

 

[seanlinden]

He would create the opportunity because he is a top line talent. Whereas Nick is barely an NHL talent…

You guys keep saying this... but with no actual argument to back it up.

Do you think any reasonable coach is going to put together a #1 powerplay unit comprised of 3 shooters up front?

Is a reasonable coach going to say, "yeah, let's take John Tavares, who's got an excellent set of hands around the net, and apt at screening goalies / deflecting pucks, off the powerplay so we can put a kid who's 5'8 170lbs in that spot"? I think not. That's some of the toughest ice in hockey.

Is a reasonable coach going to say "yeah, let's take Auston Matthews, the league's reigning rocket winner (by a wide margin), who happens to posess what is probably the league's best wrist shot, off the wing of the powerplay and put him where he's going to get hacked, so that we can develop a young guy?" I think not.

Is a reasonable coach going to say "yeah, let's take William Nylander, who also has a great distance shot, off the other wing to make room for this kid?" again, I think not.

We can go on as to why he'd be a piss poor replacement for Rielly or Marner at the top... but I think I've made my point.

Don't get me wrong, the Leafs PP is far from perfect and definitely too predictable... but Cole Caufield, Nick Robertson, adding one of those guys isn't the answer.

The way you're talking about Caufield it's like he's the 2nd coming of McDavid, that he's somehow instantly going to go from College and beat out, on a pure-merit basis, legitimate NHL stars in their mid 20s. That's just not realistic for any player but a special few.

It's one thing to do what Montreal did; as a bad team, give him a longer leash than a guy like Tyler Toffoli. You know you're not winning anything with Toffoli, so even if Caufield's maybe not quite as good, you give him the opportunity because you know that Caufield is important to the long term future of the club and Toffoli is just "there".

It's another to suggest that Toronto should deprioritize the use of their 23-25 year old star players, when they're trying to win a cup, so that they can develop Nick Robertson.

Let's not forget, Coel Caufield managed to be a -24 his rookie year, amongst the team-worst; and I'm assuming he got a fair bit of favourable matchups / ozone starts. You think Toronto would continue to give him all that ice time with being that poor defensively???