OT: Off Topic XXI - It's the End of the World As We Know It (and I feel fine)

Corpus X

Wearing Stanley's cup.
May 24, 2014
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I assure you that you are putting more thought into semantics than I am. I am aiming to have a conversation. I am not a poet. I do not load my words with hidden meanings. If I don't know each of the names of the people who lobby against restrictions, I will look for an accessible word to refer to them collectively.

I'm not seeking to prove anything. I was merely pointing out that the practice of ignoring most of the community and blindly trusting the ones who support your narrative is a tendency of conspiracy theorists. It is also a tendency of pop science reporting, though.



That's a whole lot of assumptions there being lobbed from the moral high ground. I am not, in fact, getting my information from "the administration" (and I'm unsure of what in my posts got you to that conclusion). Both they and I are aligned in where we are getting our information from, however, which is the entire field of research on the subject. And yes, that includes John Ionnidis et al. From the beginning, research on this subject has been developing at an insane speed. As is common in this sort of thing (research on a raw and novel topic), early results have had divergent results. Not all scientists agree. Conclusions have varied from one extreme to the other, leaving scientists on either extreme perhaps feeling overlooked or ignored if they are egotistical. What doesn't make sense is to take one extreme as the truth and throw out the entire rest of the field. The revelation that a scientist is not being blindly believed because of his track record is a very, very good thing from the perspective of how science is done. Scientists are merely spokespeople for their work, and do well not to forget that. It is not about people, it's about their work.

Decisions are being made that appear to contradict certain scientists' findings because the field, as a whole, has reached a divergent conclusion. It happens. I have been in symposia where two scientists are going at each other over the structure of water molecules and the air-water interface after each had been studying the same thing for a decade. Being wrong is not an indictment, either. Whatever Ioannidis' findings, his work is valid and valuable to the scientific community, and helps to inform and further the field's knowledge. His results are part of the general conclusion. They just shouldn't be seen as the conclusion itself.



I'm having a tough time following what you're talking about through most of this, but I'm not arguing that actions are beyond reproach, I'm saying that the intent is. The same is not true for Mr. Galati unless he really is just requesting an amendment in the way the process is being followed. His words and actions (and everything I find out about the guy) suggest a lot more than that, though, and a lot more that is socially detrimental and personally rewarding than anything else.



You hope it is sarcasm because it is an exception to your rule? I highlight those specifically because they do not come from a contract. Freedom in any society is restricted in cases where our choices affect others negatively or infringe on the freedoms of others. You did not respond to that. And when you talk about those contracts, where is the contract where we agreed that a licence should be necessary? Why can I only sign up for "the Army" instead of starting my own? Those are collective social decisions.

Another way to look at the topic of freedoms is this: we are truly free to do anything (including murder). We are also free as a society to choose how we deal with the choices of individuals. We choose to lock up criminals and strip them of their freedom, and we choose what the criteria are to make someone a criminal. The only real restriction on our freedom as a society is the constitution, but we as a society chose circumstances where exceptions could be made to those restrictions.

I do agree with you that vaccines likely won't be made mandatory through legislation, at least not in the near future. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be morally or ethically correct. You invoke the slippery slope fallacy when talking about bubble wrap. When we find things like vaccines that have a well-understood positive influence on public safety without a downside, it should be a no-brainer. I think there is an interesting parallel with the issue of blood transfusions for children of Jehovah's witnesses that has repeatedly come up in courts. I think the general conclusion right now is that it is lawful to force a child to receive transfusions even against their will if it has life-altering consequences not to. Perhaps one day the same will apply to vaccines.



This is a bit lazy and unsubstantiated. You spend a great deal of time putting words together to try to create the impression that you have done your research and are more informed, but then you throw out statements like this, or "social distancing has been shown to be ineffective," or the popular lines about collateral damage or the intentionally myopic statements about the disease's preference to attack the elderly.

At the end of the day, Canada developed its initial approach based on the warning from Italy. Whatever we say and whatever we choose to deny, the situation in Italy with healthcare overrun, patients being denied treatment and being left to die in tents due to lack of available equipment, doctors unable to protect themselves from contracting the disease, students being put into the field full-time out of need.... all of that indicated the risk of taking only minor precautions. It undermines any statement of "none of this is making a difference." On top of the toll in terms of human life, consider the collateral effects in terms of mental health and trauma experienced by the average Italian during the worst of the outbreak.

The initial reaction was extremely harsh in terms of our freedoms, sure, but since then we have been lifting those restrictions gradually based on improved research and a better, more informed risk assessment. The changing of messages along the way may seem to belie the failing of science, but in fact this is a very good case study in scientific research doing its job. It is a gradual process that constantly improves and refines and sometimes contradicts itself. In the absence of proof, the government is doing its best to apply risk assessment and think about probabilistic conclusions. Where they have forced people to sacrifice, they have looked to compensate through government aid. All in all, there isn't much to complain about objectively.

Again, I read the Statement of Claim, I am in agreement with it and that is where I am coming from. A declaration must be made by law. Full Stop. Our typing back and forth doesn't change that at all.

You're also still invited over if I have a Flames party... You can obviously choose to decline but I hope not. ;)
 
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May 27, 2012
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Do people know what fascism is or are people just using it as a catchy buzzword?

giphy.gif
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
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I am in 100% agreement that a Declaration must be made and the laws must be followed. I read, not all, of the statement and I am in full agreement of this. I don't hide that. Also, my opinions don't matter. I didn't write that an I should have. The Declaration is what matters.

The Statement of Claim, and subsequent case will not hold water, this will be proven given time. What will happen is ultimately this will be dismissed by whichever court it reaches in Canada. But not before it wastes thousands of tax payer dollars and resources, all so Rocco can make a quick buck off his latest grift. You might be okay with having your tax dollars flushed down the toilet, I am not. He is scum.
 

Janks

Pope Janks
Jan 7, 2010
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Calgary
The Statement of Claim, and subsequent case will not hold water, this will be proven given time. What will happen is ultimately this will be dismissed by whichever court it reaches in Canada. But not before it wastes thousands of tax payer dollars and resources, all so Rocco can make a quick buck off his latest grift. You might be okay with having your tax dollars flushed down the toilet, I am not. He is scum.
Agreed with this. Seems like a big waste of time and tax dollars trying to challenge pandemic measures taken. If the government doesn’t lock down everything, we turn into Florida with 1.5% of our population having cases by now and growing (315k cases, 21.5M population).

To frame that for Canada, that would be 540k cases in a population of 37M compared to our current 109k total cases - roughly 5x). No thanks. I’m not interested in finding out long term impact of covid on our population and more unnecessary deaths. Our economy will recover, and our health experts leading the charge are the best to navigate this disaster (certainly over individuals with non-health and IPC backgrounds).
 

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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The widespread distrust of public health measures would be funny if it wasn't so scary. Andrew Wakefield has opened a pandora's box that won't close especially because it gets more and more amplified through social media
 

Corpus X

Wearing Stanley's cup.
May 24, 2014
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The widespread distrust of public health measures would be funny if it wasn't so scary. Andrew Wakefield has opened a pandora's box that won't close especially because it gets more and more amplified through social media
This is exactly my point. Why is the rule of law not being followed by the highest level of Government? Avoiding a Declaration does not instill trust in authority. It breeds mistrust and it should.
 

Janks

Pope Janks
Jan 7, 2010
7,745
1,723
Calgary
This is exactly my point. Why is the rule of law not being followed by the highest level of Government? Avoiding a Declaration does not instill trust in authority. It breeds mistrust and it should.
So if there was a declaration; the whole pandemic response by the federal government isn’t fascist? Is that your point here?
 

FLAMESFAN

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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My wife has been way happier working from home, and more productive too. We're wondering if her company will be ok with this being a regular thing even after the pandemic.

I had to teach online in the spring and may need to again in the fall. My summer is unaffected. Overall, we've been lucky.

Do you teach science at a university? Just curious what field you are in.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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Do you teach science at a university? Just curious what field you are in.

I used to teach Chemistry during my PhD, but now I do mostly Physics, Chemistry and Robotics in high school.

My research was in optics and instrumental techniques for materials research.
 

FLAMESFAN

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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Ok, you teach highschool science...that is an awesome career, but is it accurate to call yourself a scientist then?
Wouldn't you have to actually be doing some research & publishing work? Seems a little misleading.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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Ok, you teach highschool science...that is an awesome career, but is it accurate to call yourself a scientist then?
Wouldn't you have to actually be doing some research & publishing work? Seems a little misleading.

I would say that currently I feel more like a scientist who is now teaching than a teacher who used to be a scientist. I imagine that will change over the next few years if I keep doing this, but I'm still very much connected with my research group and I haven't put it behind me yet.

I don't think I'm misleading anyone, because in the context of a discussion, there isn't really a difference in what I bring to the discussion between now and then (other than a bit more life experience). I didn't flip any kind of a switch in terms of who I am when going from one job to the next.
 
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FLAMESFAN

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Feb 27, 2002
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I would say that currently I feel more like a scientist who is now teaching than a teacher who used to be a scientist. I imagine that will change over the next few years if I keep doing this, but I'm still very much connected with my research group and I haven't put it behind me yet.

I don't think I'm misleading anyone, because in the context of a discussion, there isn't really a difference in what I bring to the discussion between now and then (other than a bit more life experience). I didn't flip any kind of a switch in terms of who I am when going from one job to the next.

OK, that makes more sense, and you do have a PhD...but you could imagine the dilution of the term if anyone with a science degree called themselves a scientist. I mean, I took astronomy courses way back, but I don't call myself an astronomer.
 

FLAMESFAN

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Feb 27, 2002
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Man, with the increase in cases lately all around, I just don't see how these "playoffs" can fly.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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Victoria
OK, that makes more sense, and you do have a PhD...but you could imagine the dilution of the term if anyone with a science degree called themselves a scientist. I mean, I took astronomy courses way back, but I don't call myself an astronomer.

I'm perfectly happy including anyone who has contributed to the field and published work under the term, and I think most in the field would agree. I would tend to agree that contributing, not just learning, should be a requirement to call oneself a scientist.

Along those lines, Neil deGrasse Tyson definitely is still a scientist to me, and Bill Nye never was.
 

FLAMESFAN

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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I'm perfectly happy including anyone who has contributed to the field and published work under the term, and I think most in the field would agree. I would tend to agree that contributing, not just learning, should be a requirement to call oneself a scientist.

For sure researching & publishing should be a requirement.
What if I was part of multiple Phd Thesis research as a field worker, and have a degree myself, but no PhD?
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,761
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Victoria
For sure researching & publishing should be a requirement.
What if I was part of multiple Phd Thesis research as a field worker, and have a degree myself, but no PhD?

Good question. I suppose I'm thinking more along the lines of a PhD. defence's definition of "contribution," which would be about whether you personally have pushed the boundaries of human knowledge through your work. In many ways it really would come down to how responsible you felt for the work, the power that was placed in your own personal decisions during the work, and whether the work would have been different without you. So in general, I think that a scientist should probably be first author at some point, either in a publication or eventually in a thesis or dissertation. If you want a hard and fast rule, it's probably that.

I'm tempted to steer clear entirely of hard and fast rules, though. The neat things that go into being a scientist are things like having your own little corner of a very specific field where you are the foremost expert in the entire world, even if that time is brief, or being able to be the first person to explain about something to a room full of prominent scholars, or working on instrumentation which is the only one of its kind because you built it that morning. Knowing that my work leaves a legacy and that I could be counted on to explain it to anyone who emails me is part of it to. I think that those things are what really end up providing at least me with the firm belief that I'm a scientist. I would leave it you to decide what is necessary to achieve that.
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
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OK, that makes more sense, and you do have a PhD...but you could imagine the dilution of the term if anyone with a science degree called themselves a scientist. I mean, I took astronomy courses way back, but I don't call myself an astronomer.

I saw Jupiter once. I am something of a skyentist myself.
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
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Guys, as much as I too would like to discuss political world events as I am sure it would be an in depth discussion, political topics aren’t allowed on the board. Coronavirus related politics is the exception, within limits.
 
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